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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Announcements >> "Macro or Closeup" Challenge Results Recalculated
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02/26/2023 11:01:01 PM · #1
The former 3rd-place image in the "Macro or Closeup" challenge has been disqualified because the submitted "original" was imported using software that marked it in the process of importing it. Congrats to our new ribboner and HM.
02/27/2023 12:34:25 AM · #2
How odd that no where does it state you canít use lightrooom or photoshop to import a photo - which was in no way altered or edited. There was NOTHING done to the photo except sharpened universally. I worked very hard on that image through multiple shoots and I fully believe that this Ďbreakí in the rules is in no place written and it is my process that I use whenever importing images; muscle memory. Legislating how a photo is imported is not written anywhere.

Congratulations to the new ribbon winner and HMís.
02/27/2023 07:35:13 AM · #3
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

How odd that no where does it state you canít use lightrooom or photoshop to import a photo ...

[
Originally posted by Common Rules:

You Must: retain your original, unedited file (exactly as recorded by your camera), and provide it to the Site Council along with a list of your editing steps within 48 hours of any validation request ...

Unless a camera records in Photoshop or Lightroom a file showing it has been processed in any way by either does not fit the above description.
02/27/2023 09:22:53 AM · #4
I also always import my photos from the card directly into Lightroom. But usually they are RAW files, Lightroom does not modify them. It must be different with the JPEGs, and Lightrooom evidently writes something into them during import. I guess you should've kept your original JPEGs on your card as a precaution for the duration of this minimal challenge.

Sorry about your DQ!
02/27/2023 10:50:33 AM · #5
I always download photos from my camera and my iPhone directly into a folder on my computer, then import the folder into Lightroom. I've never had a problem getting an entry validated.
02/27/2023 11:06:41 AM · #6
Originally posted by LevT:

I also always import my photos from the card directly into Lightroom. But usually they are RAW files, Lightroom does not modify them. It must be different with the JPEGs, and Lightrooom evidently writes something into them during import. I guess you should've kept your original JPEGs on your card as a precaution for the duration of this minimal challenge.

Sorry about your DQ!


No worries about the DQ . The ironic thing is I did keep my card until Thursday but had a session and assumed (wrongly) that everything was fine as I had submitted my original at the time of submissions prior to voting. later that evening I got a request for the file. Oh the irony.
02/27/2023 11:11:40 AM · #7
Originally posted by Elaine:

I always download photos from my camera and my iPhone directly into a folder on my computer, then import the folder into Lightroom. I've never had a problem getting an entry validated.


I donít like to keep photos unnecessarily and have always culled upon upload, using Lightroom to do that. Like [user]levit[/user] I shoot in raw and the size would be pretty massive of all my sessions. No big deal, I just find it ironic that no editing to the image occurred. Oh well. I will never enter a minimal challenge again.
02/27/2023 11:14:11 AM · #8
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

How odd that no where does it state you canít use lightrooom or photoshop to import a photo ...

[
Originally posted by Common Rules:

You Must: retain your original, unedited file (exactly as recorded by your camera), and provide it to the Site Council along with a list of your editing steps within 48 hours of any validation request ...

Unless a camera records in Photoshop or Lightroom a file showing it has been processed in any way by either does not fit the above description.


What happens to the file, uploading via Lightroom/photoshop, doesnít affect the visual representation of what was recorded by the camera. Which is what we are voting on in this photo challenge. Last I looked, this was a photo competition, not a coding competition. My bad.
02/27/2023 12:22:21 PM · #9
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

How odd that no where does it state you canít use lightrooom or photoshop to import a photo ...

[
Originally posted by Common Rules:

You Must: retain your original, unedited file (exactly as recorded by your camera), and provide it to the Site Council along with a list of your editing steps within 48 hours of any validation request ...

Unless a camera records in Photoshop or Lightroom a file showing it has been processed in any way by either does not fit the above description.


What happens to the file, uploading via Lightroom/photoshop, doesnít affect the visual representation of what was recorded by the camera. Which is what we are voting on in this photo challenge. Last I looked, this was a photo competition, not a coding competition. My bad.

I completely believe you that no editing was done, but once the file has been marked by the other software we have no way to tell/verify that.

Personally I always use (and recommend) just the operating system's drag-and-drop method to copy the files from the camera to the computer, and I don't erase them from the card until I've made a backup of that.
02/27/2023 04:06:21 PM · #10
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

I will never enter a minimal challenge again.


I never entered minimal challenges since I didn't want to change my settings, and I don't feel that using my mirrorless in JPG teaches me anything that carries over to my normal shooting in RAW. However, I now use my iPhone to do minimal challenges. Still not sure I learn anything but I get to enter.
02/27/2023 04:49:53 PM · #11
If I were going to shoot for a Minimal Challenge (I don't) I would set my camera to record full size RAW to one card and Medium JPEG to the other card. I'd use the JPEG for my submission, and still have the RAW for other uses. Medium JPEGS don't take up much room at all.
As Robert stated, once a JPEG is tagged by editing software, there is no way at all to tell whether it even bears resemblance to the original. Since Minimal is so restrictive, even as to e.g. application of a Curves adjustment, it is crucial that we be able to say "Yes, this is what the out-of-camera file looks like." Otherwise, enforcement of the Minimal Rules would be impossible.
02/27/2023 06:21:42 PM · #12
Time to kill Minimal once and for all. So lame as you can juice the hell out of it PRE-capture with sat, contrast, bracketing, film sims and on and on.
Put a fork in it!
02/27/2023 08:02:33 PM · #13
Not sure global manoeuvres can really juice the hell out of a file.
02/27/2023 08:19:57 PM · #14
Originally posted by oldbimmercoupe:

Time to kill Minimal once and for all. So lame as you can juice the hell out of it PRE-capture with sat, contrast, bracketing, film sims and on and on.
Put a fork in it!


Absolutely agree on the pre-camera work - I saturated in camera by setting to vivid; which I kind of laughed at because that darn lady bug wouldn't stay where I wanted her to and it would have been easier to crop her but Ďthatí isnít allowed so I just took a number of images. I think it is ironic all the things you can do in camera nowadays for a minimal challenge but don't import and cull using a program that does nothing to the file . . . LOL Kind of fly's in the face of minimal.

Message edited by author 2023-02-27 21:08:23.
02/27/2023 09:10:40 PM · #15
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

I will never enter a minimal challenge again.


I never entered minimal challenges since I didn't want to change my settings, and I don't feel that using my mirrorless in JPG teaches me anything that carries over to my normal shooting in RAW. However, I now use my iPhone to do minimal challenges. Still not sure I learn anything but I get to enter.


I agree setting to jpg was a pain, color profile, size, etc. Juice isnít worth the squeeze in my opinion . . .
02/28/2023 03:02:30 AM · #16
Originally posted by oldbimmercoupe:

Time to kill Minimal once and for all. So lame as you can juice the hell out of it PRE-capture with sat, contrast, bracketing, film sims and on and on.
Put a fork in it!


I kindly disagree. I love that about this challenge(please don't kill). Sure some of this is a little tedious but It teaches you to really use your camera and that's part of the "challenge"....all that being said, I didn't touch a single setting on my camera. Kirbic is 100% right though. Everyone that has the ability should always be saving backups as jpeg on the 2nd card... These cards can get corrupted and that's no fun
03/01/2023 09:19:20 AM · #17
Originally posted by kirbic:

If I were going to shoot for a Minimal Challenge (I don't) I would set my camera to record full size RAW to one card and Medium JPEG to the other card. I'd use the JPEG for my submission, and still have the RAW for other uses. Medium JPEGS don't take up much room at all.
As Robert stated, once a JPEG is tagged by editing software, there is no way at all to tell whether it even bears resemblance to the original. Since Minimal is so restrictive, even as to e.g. application of a Curves adjustment, it is crucial that we be able to say "Yes, this is what the out-of-camera file looks like." Otherwise, enforcement of the Minimal Rules would be impossible.


The problem is figuring out the settings to make a good JPEG. Why would I spend any time doing that when I would never use it except for these challenges? I think people forget a JPEG is processed, just by the camera instead of the photographer. I can shoot RAW and with the movement of a few sliders (less than one minute) have a good photo.

Jake - there is nothing about setting up a JPEG that teaches me to "really use [my] camera" since I always shoot in RAW and manual mode.
03/01/2023 09:40:29 AM · #18
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by kirbic:

If I were going to shoot for a Minimal Challenge (I don't) I would set my camera to record full size RAW to one card and Medium JPEG to the other card. I'd use the JPEG for my submission, and still have the RAW for other uses. Medium JPEGS don't take up much room at all.
As Robert stated, once a JPEG is tagged by editing software, there is no way at all to tell whether it even bears resemblance to the original. Since Minimal is so restrictive, even as to e.g. application of a Curves adjustment, it is crucial that we be able to say "Yes, this is what the out-of-camera file looks like." Otherwise, enforcement of the Minimal Rules would be impossible.


The problem is figuring out the settings to make a good JPEG. Why would I spend any time doing that when I would never use it except for these challenges? I think people forget a JPEG is processed, just by the camera instead of the photographer. I can shoot RAW and with the movement of a few sliders (less than one minute) have a good photo.

Jake - there is nothing about setting up a JPEG that teaches me to "really use [my] camera" since I always shoot in RAW and manual mode.


IMO you are exactly correct, and it is why I don't shoot for Minimal challenges. I don't find the exercise of tweaking settings to get the best possible out-of-camera JPEG to be a learning experience, it's more like a game with camera settings. Just not my speed, but I do understand that others like the Minimal challenges, and we will keep running them.
03/01/2023 10:21:00 AM · #19
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by kirbic:

If I were going to shoot for a Minimal Challenge (I don't) I would set my camera to record full size RAW to one card and Medium JPEG to the other card. I'd use the JPEG for my submission, and still have the RAW for other uses. Medium JPEGS don't take up much room at all.
As Robert stated, once a JPEG is tagged by editing software, there is no way at all to tell whether it even bears resemblance to the original. Since Minimal is so restrictive, even as to e.g. application of a Curves adjustment, it is crucial that we be able to say "Yes, this is what the out-of-camera file looks like." Otherwise, enforcement of the Minimal Rules would be impossible.


The problem is figuring out the settings to make a good JPEG. Why would I spend any time doing that when I would never use it except for these challenges? I think people forget a JPEG is processed, just by the camera instead of the photographer. I can shoot RAW and with the movement of a few sliders (less than one minute) have a good photo.

Jake - there is nothing about setting up a JPEG that teaches me to "really use [my] camera" since I always shoot in RAW and manual mode.


Sometimes the challenge isn't just about figuring out camera settings to make the shot look its best but working within those rules to capture an amazing photo. My point is that I took a picture that won and I didn't have to change any settings. That is how I challenged myself but if you feel you need to have a processed picture to have a good picture then I guess it's not worth entering. For that reason I probably will not be entering this one any more either as it seems the glass is half empty.

Message edited by author 2023-03-01 11:29:35.
03/01/2023 11:34:58 AM · #20
Originally posted by hippo110:


if you feel you need to have a processed picture to have a good picture then I guess it's not worth entering.


But a JPEG IS a processed image, just by the camera instead of the photographer.
03/01/2023 11:39:06 AM · #21
It's not all about settings -- composition (without cropping), exposure (regardless of "tweaked settings") and choosing an appropriate subject are what I consider most when entering these challenges.
03/01/2023 12:09:43 PM · #22
I'm jumping:
I not only keep my images on the card and I have a few cards, I keep an original file on my desk top with all the entries as enter just for this purpose.
I learned on this CHALLENGE... to challenge myself. I shot my Orchid with a hot light at night in the kitchen trying to get a dark background and I did not get as much light on the Orchid as needed to score better. I LEARNED SOMETHING HERE!!! I may not be as good as the rest of you but that is why I'm here for a learning challenge. I like DP just the way it is even if it doesn't go my way. A challenge like this keeps me on my toes.
03/01/2023 12:30:14 PM · #23
Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by hippo110:


if you feel you need to have a processed picture to have a good picture then I guess it's not worth entering.


But a JPEG IS a processed image, just by the camera instead of the photographer.


For the record, this DQ was never about breaking rules to the shooting of the image but literally using a program to import the image. Ironically, we have had bad weather and I submitted for validation before the end of voting. I had saved my card with the image on it and never received an email (I have asked if perhaps there is an issue with this) and literally shot on that card hours before I received a site notification that I needed to submit again. Oh the irony . . . . LOL
03/01/2023 03:21:12 PM · #24
There seems to be a misconception here quite separate from the issue of how you download the image from your camera. Based on your comment below, you seem to be assuming that when you submit an original at the time of image submission, or during voting, it is evaluated for compliance at that time, and by that reasoning, you feel that you should have been notified of the problem while you still had the file on the camera's memory card. However, that assumption is not correct. Evaluation of a routinely uploaded image original does not happen until voting is over and only then if it's in the top five.

Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

Originally posted by Elaine:

Originally posted by hippo110:


if you feel you need to have a processed picture to have a good picture then I guess it's not worth entering.


But a JPEG IS a processed image, just by the camera instead of the photographer.


For the record, this DQ was never about breaking rules to the shooting of the image but literally using a program to import the image. Ironically, we have had bad weather and I submitted for validation before the end of voting. I had saved my card with the image on it and never received an email (I have asked if perhaps there is an issue with this) and literally shot on that card hours before I received a site notification that I needed to submit again. Oh the irony . . . . LOL


Message edited by author 2023-03-01 17:22:57.
03/01/2023 08:06:48 PM · #25
Originally posted by PenelopeK:

There seems to be a misconception here quite separate from the issue of how you download the image from your camera. Based on your comment below, you seem to be assuming that when you submit an original at the time of image submission, or during voting, it is evaluated for compliance at that time, and by that reasoning, you feel that you should have been notified of the problem while you still had the file on the camera's memory card. However, that assumption is not correct. Evaluation of a routinely uploaded image original does not happen until voting is over and only then if it's in the top five.

. . .
[/quote]

I submitted originals at the time of image submission this summer when I was going on vacation; this was clear to me. I don't know why or how I knew - I just remember reading it and thinking "that's a good policy - SC members should be able to view and vote without any extra knowledge".
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