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07/12/2006 08:38:04 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Kronus:
Need Cheese? |
I don't understand? |
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07/12/2006 08:39:36 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Come on Tim, gimme a break here. She did remark about his physical stature, but she also said that he "perfectly articulated many of my thoughts and feelings". She says she agrees with him while he's articulating her thoughts. Where does it come in that we can't disagree with him? Are we to understand that you and your wife think we should be intimadated by his size to the point that we don't dare to disagree? |
Yes she did comment on his size - and it was meant as a joke - A JOKE! Lighten up man. Agree or disagree with who you want. the SAJ made some great points that hit home with Aimee.
I started this thread in hopes to get a better, more detailed idea of why so many people gave this shot the score they did on the lower end. I did not start this thread as a pity thread for my wife, to call any voters stupid, or to insinuate that my idea of what should ribbon is the only idea acceptable. I came here for constructive criticism on a picture that was submitted by someone I care about. Many people have posted their opinion on the shot, what they thought of it both during and after the challenge. Some thought it was a bought piece of decoration, some thought it was not paper at all, some thought it lacked any photo merit but had artistic merit and some thought it was the best thing since sliced bread (OK noone actually said that but I am sure someone was thinking it). We are here to learn and compete (and win whenever we can). This was all meant to try to understand the competition aspect of this site just a bit better and accomplish the goals we have set for ourselves. I am not here to argue which is unfortunately where this thread has gone. This is for fun!!! Relax everyone.
As for now - this thread has accomplished (long ago) the goals I had set. Please continue on if you must. Aimee and I are going to enjoy a glass of wine and whatever else we decide to do. ;)
And just for the bonus views -
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07/12/2006 09:07:49 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Nuzzer:
Originally posted by Kronus:
Need Cheese? |
I don't understand? |
with your whine :)
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07/12/2006 09:23:06 PM · #79 |
This may be off-topic, but in a brief glance through the comments in this thread regarding DNMC in the Stationery challenge, it really surprised me how many of the submissions to Stationery did not include any form of stationery (or even paper)and yet scored well. (Please note this is not a complaint, just an observation.) There clearly is a difference in "office supplies" and "stationery", but two of the top ten (one of staples and one of colored pencils) did not include stationery, as was required in the challenge definition. They were both excellent pictures, though.
Unless there was some revision to the challenge definition that I missed, it seems that the numerous pictures of office supplies would have been voted down by the voters as DNMC, based on the many comments that I've seen in a typical challenge.
I didn't enter this challenge, so am not complaining, but I just thought it interesting that as worked up as some members can get over DNMC entries, that in this challenge, it seemed to be ignored in some cases, at least.
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07/12/2006 09:29:03 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by emorgan49:
Despite all the work put into the set up, it does look like a crepe paper fold out thing that could have been purchased at a party store. My guess is that your low votes are because people thought you were photographing an object you bought and was sort of someone elses work. |
^ Best explanation IMO. Furthermore, just because something is made out of stationery (or includes it), that doesn't mean the photo is ABOUT stationery. If you took a piece of letterhead and folded it into an origami bird, most people would probably still recognize the stationery. But if you shredded the same letterhead and used it to make a papier maché model of a bird, the connection would be FAR less obvious. I think the voters' perception in this case was more about the object(s) than the materials used to make it, but the score shows that most gave it the benefit of the doubt anyway. Sometimes you can use this to your advantage. I'm well aware that my ribbon winner in the Flowers challenge is really "about" the bird, but I figured that the flower was prominent enough to avoid the DNMC votes (and used the title to further ensure the connection). Honestly, while your entry was appealing, I think you were fortunate that it didn't fare worse.
Bear in mind too that some of the low votes just "happen" no matter what you do. Ribbon winners with 8+ scores still get votes of 3 or less. Some people will vote it down because they honestly think it's bad (due to personal preference, phobia, past experience, etc.), while others might vote it down because it's too good. ;-)
Message edited by author 2006-07-12 21:36:33. |
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07/12/2006 09:35:34 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by digitaldave:
There clearly is a difference in "office supplies" and "stationery", but two of the top ten (one of staples and one of colored pencils) did not include stationery, as was required in the challenge definition. |
Outside the U.S., stationery more commonly refers to the whole category of office supplies, and even here office supplies is a valid alternate definition. While many people (including myself) probably envision paper first and foremost, I think the challenge results clearly demonstrate that voters are generally flexible and willing to give the benefit of the doubt (despite rumors to the contrary). |
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07/12/2006 09:37:12 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by digitaldave:
This may be off-topic, but in a brief glance through the comments in this thread regarding DNMC in the Stationery challenge, it really surprised me how many of the submissions to Stationery did not include any form of stationery (or even paper)and yet scored well. (Please note this is not a complaint, just an observation.) There clearly is a difference in "office supplies" and "stationery", but two of the top ten (one of staples and one of colored pencils) did not include stationery, as was required in the challenge definition. They were both excellent pictures, though.
Unless there was some revision to the challenge definition that I missed, it seems that the numerous pictures of office supplies would have been voted down by the voters as DNMC, based on the many comments that I've seen in a typical challenge.
I didn't enter this challenge, so am not complaining, but I just thought it interesting that as worked up as some members can get over DNMC entries, that in this challenge, it seemed to be ignored in some cases, at least. |
it depends on your dictionary ;)
i knew that my image was close to DNMC - but from more than one source
stationery is about the consumables for writing ... not just paper
only thing that i though really odd - where are all the paperclips ??
;) |
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07/12/2006 09:39:05 PM · #83 |
Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad that in my voting, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, assuming that since there were so many pictures of office supplies, that I must have been missing something in my understanding of the term.
Actually, ralphnev, your shot was excellent and very deserving of its high score. I didn't realize that stationery has a much broader definition around the world, since my understanding has always been that it refers to paper used for written correspondence. I've learned something new tonight, I guess.
Message edited by author 2006-07-12 21:44:35. |
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07/12/2006 10:02:22 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by "RayEthier":
Your analogy regarding "Boot" can be applied in this instance since the "Normal" affiliation to "Stationery" is not all that evident in this image, a factor which may have led to some of lower scores. |
And if the mere use of such in another fashion is justification for a DNMC, than this is NOT a stationery entry but rather a paper crane.
[thumbs]355631[/thumbs]
Originally posted by "coolhar":
TheSaj, you are making an awful lot of assumptions, some of which I doubt you have enough data to support. |
And some of which are based on actual correspondance and personal experience. Also, just a casual glance as the bar graph of said image shows some rather odd patterns.
Originally posted by "coolhar":
The only time a voter has a duty to give the benefit of the doubt to the entering photographer is when the rules require them to vote as if legal on an entry they think may be DQ-able. |
Yes, and that's part of what I've been addressing. Receiving 1's instead of a DQ request is wrong. Happens all the time. People get bummed and are like "what happened" and then others try to make it about the quality of a photo.
Originally posted by "Nuzzer":
The upshot is that "it evens out" and if it's a great shot then it will win out so let's move on. Please. |
Actually, the upshot is that it often doesn't. In this case, just look at the bizarre cut-off at the 1/2/3 (DNMC) area. And what Scalvert said, is true. It is possible for an object to become more and then be seen as not.
But I am of the opinion that if there is enough evidence that the entry was endeavoring to meet the challenge, and technically does. I have a low opinion of anyone who gives DNMC = 1. And yes, sadly, I do think there are some who might actually be voting down good photos sad as that might be.
Anyways, for all those reading, I just ask that the next time you are in such a situation. Assume that the entry is an honest endeavor. That if the object in view may or may not be a qualifying subject. And you can't quite tell if it is or not. Err on the assumption that it is. It may or may not be paper. Well, if the challenge involves paper, it probably is. So go with that assumption over the one that says "That might not be paper." As most people here are making honest endeavors. |
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07/12/2006 10:43:56 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by "coolhar":
The only time a voter has a duty to give the benefit of the doubt to the entering photographer is when the rules require them to vote as if legal on an entry they think may be DQ-able. |
Yes, and that's part of what I've been addressing. Receiving 1's instead of a DQ request is wrong. Happens all the time. People get bummed and are like "what happened" and then others try to make it about the quality of a photo. |
I thought this thread was about meeting the challenge topic, not about illegal editing. You are ignoring the relevant part of my post. You seem to be very selective in what you want to respond to, and what you accept as fact.
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07/12/2006 11:22:47 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by digitaldave:
There clearly is a difference in "office supplies" and "stationery", but two of the top ten (one of staples and one of colored pencils) did not include stationery, as was required in the challenge definition. |
Outside the U.S., stationery more commonly refers to the whole category of office supplies, and even here office supplies is a valid alternate definition. While many people (including myself) probably envision paper first and foremost, I think the challenge results clearly demonstrate that voters are generally flexible and willing to give the benefit of the doubt (despite rumors to the contrary). |
This is a perfect example of why people should NOT be handing out 1s or 2s for DNMC. There are VERY FEW entries I've seen in the history of DPC that were clear cut DNMCs but people just go willy nilly handing them out like they are going out of style. As I said earlier the average DPC voter doesn't trust the photographer's intentions and therefore do not give ANY benefit of the doubt when one is present. That's a shame because so many photographers put a lot of effort into their shots only to be crapped on.
ETA: And yes chaimelle, it is disrespecting the photographer's art when it's given the same score one gives to a shot with the lens cap still attached. Of course that's just my opinion and feel free to change your opinion of me because I stated such. I'll still respect your opinion and everyone elses the same.
Message edited by author 2006-07-12 23:34:24. |
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07/12/2006 11:23:12 PM · #87 |
I am fairly new here and haven't entered any of my pics, nor voted. I have reviewed every challenge since I joined, enjoyed all the pictures, and commented on things I want to comment on. After the challenge I looked again at "Apollo" to read the photographers comments. It was only then that I realized how the photo was set up and the time put into it.
In this string of postings it appears to me that the unstated bottom line is "the average voter does not know what the photographer knows, and can misinterpert or misunderstand the photograph." This misunderstanding might sway some voters to drop a 1-2-3 for DNMC.
SOLUTION: (Again I haven't been here long and don't know if this was tried and rejected before, but) If a brief description of the photograph from the photographer was shown on the voting page, the photographer would have more than the title space to explain why his/her photo meets the challenge and perhaps report to the voters the work put into the submitted shot.
-chief |
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07/13/2006 03:29:20 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by yanko:
This is a perfect example of why people should NOT be handing out 1s or 2s for DNMC. There are VERY FEW entries I've seen in the history of DPC that were clear cut DNMCs but people just go willy nilly handing them out like they are going out of style. As I said earlier the average DPC voter doesn't trust the photographer's intentions and therefore do not give ANY benefit of the doubt when one is present. That's a shame because so many photographers put a lot of effort into their shots only to be crapped on. |
Where does that idea come from? - that the photogrpaher is entitled to (any) benefit of the doubt when considering whether a shot meets the challenge. theSaj said something similar earlier in this thread. I know we must vote as if legal when we suspect a violation of editing rules, that's very clear. But where does it say that we have to give out a free pass in regards to DNMC? To the contrary, I think that it could be said the the rules lean the other way when they say "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly." If the voters are instructed to vote lower on the ones that they think don't meet the topic, doesn't that put the burden on the entering photographer to convince the voter that the shot is on topic?
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07/13/2006 03:45:15 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by yanko:
This is a perfect example of why people should NOT be handing out 1s or 2s for DNMC. There are VERY FEW entries I've seen in the history of DPC that were clear cut DNMCs but people just go willy nilly handing them out like they are going out of style. As I said earlier the average DPC voter doesn't trust the photographer's intentions and therefore do not give ANY benefit of the doubt when one is present. That's a shame because so many photographers put a lot of effort into their shots only to be crapped on. |
Where does that idea come from? - that the photogrpaher is entitled to (any) benefit of the doubt when considering whether a shot meets the challenge. theSaj said something similar earlier in this thread. I know we must vote as if legal when we suspect a violation of editing rules, that's very clear. But where does it say that we have to give out a free pass in regards to DNMC? To the contrary, I think that it could be said the the rules lean the other way when they say "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly." If the voters are instructed to vote lower on the ones that they think don't meet the topic, doesn't that put the burden on the entering photographer to convince the voter that the shot is on topic? |
Nobody is talking about a free pass. I'm talking about when there is doubt, the photographer should get the benefit of the it. Why do we think the photographer is up to no good? In every aspect of society you are not treated as guilty until proven innocent yet here we treat photographers that way. Unless you're 100% sure the image is DNMC then you shouldn't be handing out 1s for it, IMO. Too many images get treated that way and afterwards it turns out they DID meet the challenge and a bunch of people were spectacularly wrong with their DNMC votes.
This after all is a learning site. I can't think of a worse message to give someone then a DNMC comment/vote when the challenge description says "tell us what such and such means to YOU" and that happens all the time. There shouldn't be one DNMC vote in such a challenge yet the DNMC police can't put down their pistols even for those challenges. It wouldn't even be a problem if voters didn't have such narrow views on evey the widest of subjects. Creativity just gets sucked out the window and we get the same exact images time and time again because for many that's all they are comfortable in submitting in fear of the DNMC.
Message edited by author 2006-07-13 03:53:05.
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07/13/2006 04:30:34 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Case 1: A beautiful sunset entered in a dairy challenge. There is nothing whatsoever to reflect dairy. It's a great sunset but as hard as you look at the photo there is just nothing that you can even bend to interpret for dairy. By the way...this happened.
Had this been the case and it had a hundred ones, I would not be saying a word.
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The sun looks like it is made of cheese! Hence DAIRY!!
Originally posted by Nuzzer:
Originally posted by Kronus:
Need Cheese? |
I don't understand? |
like a great commercial near the end of the Super Bowl, I'm sorry but I thought this was hilarious.
Had a great day, and a stiff drink to celebrate, my apologies, please continue.
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07/13/2006 04:34:47 AM · #91 |
All of the commentary here is pretty much irrelevant - most voters will not read this thread. Voters are not accountable for their actions. You will not change voting patterns with this thread.
The only thing that can be learned from this thread (if you did not know it already) is that voters will vote down images that they perceive do not meet the challenge.
If you want to avoid getting DNMC votes, produce an image that is clearly within the spirit of the the challenge (and take a great photo!).
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07/13/2006 05:01:42 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
If you want to avoid getting DNMC votes, produce an image that is clearly within the spirit of the the challenge |
Sounds simple but it's not. What is clearly within the spirit of the challenge is different from one voter to the next. It would be simple if you just shoot what the challenge descriptions states but all too often the voters will go by a different critiera (see bokeh for example). Heck, shooting a "great photo" has become much easier then trying to figure out how the voters will interpret a challenge.
Message edited by author 2006-07-13 05:03:53.
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07/13/2006 05:04:34 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Nobody is talking about a free pass. I'm talking about when there is doubt, the photographer should get the benefit of the it. Why do we think the photographer is up to no good? In every aspect of society you are not treated as guilty until proven innocent yet here we treat photographers that way. Unless you're 100% sure the image is DNMC then you shouldn't be handing out 1s for it, IMO. Too many images get treated that way and afterwards it turns out they DID meet the challenge and a bunch of people were spectacularly wrong with their DNMC votes.
This after all is a learning site. I can't think of a worse message to give someone then a DNMC comment/vote when the challenge description says "tell us what such and such means to YOU" and that happens all the time. There shouldn't be one DNMC vote in such a challenge yet the DNMC police can't put down their pistols even for those challenges. It wouldn't even be a problem if voters didn't have such narrow views on evey the widest of subjects. Creativity just gets sucked out the window and we get the same exact images time and time again because for many that's all they are comfortable in submitting in fear of the DNMC. |
None of what you say is very convincing to me. You say this or that thing happens all the time while we all know there is no proof of it happening at all.
I still don't see why we should give benefit of the doubt on DNMC. When there is doubt the photographer has failed. I can't think of a worse message to send than to let people think it is OK to shoehorn in shots that don't meet the challenge, or that meet it only in some obscure, peripheral, hard-to-figure-out way. As a learning site with themed competitions a photographer is expected to put their creativity on the back burner while they to shoot to a certain topic. It is supposed to restrictive of what you can shoot; it is not supposed to encouraging to extreme interpretations. Why would you expect all the voters to bend to your out-of-box vision when the masses are hitting the target better? That doesn't make any sense, and it seems to me that it goes against the rule about keeping topic in high regard while voting.
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07/13/2006 05:08:52 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
If you want to avoid getting DNMC votes, produce an image that is clearly within the spirit of the the challenge |
Sounds simple but it's not. |
Agreed - but there is no other option.
Failure to persuade the voters with your image that you have met the challenge means that you will get DNMC votes.
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07/13/2006 05:19:27 AM · #95 |
We always have discussions about entries getting so many low votes, but there are also lots of entries that don't get any, or get only a very few low votes. Somebody must be doing something right. Maybe that's the example to study and imitate.
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07/13/2006 06:10:20 AM · #96 |
| Tell your missus I rated her picture higher than yours. Still do. |
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07/13/2006 10:57:13 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by "coolhar":
that the photogrpaher is entitled to (any) benefit of the doubt when considering whether a shot meets the challenge |
I think the difference is this. Some people, believe that you are supposed to assume truth when you have no evidence to the contrary. Others, seem to believe that there is no obligation to do so.
As the challenge itself specifies a category. And said entry was entered into a challenge of a specific category. The assumption SHOULD be that there was truthful endeavor toward that category.
IMHO, anyone who does not go by that assumption is (please fill in blank). You are essentially calling them a liar and untrustworthy with no basis. Yes, that is rude. Yes, that is wrong. Yes, that is...
"While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."
Yes it does....but no where does it say "Go assume the possibility that would allow you to DNMC the photo instead of accepting that the portrayed evidence is aligned."
"If the voters are instructed to vote lower on the ones that they think don't meet the topic, doesn't that put the burden on the entering photographer to convince the voter that the shot is on topic?"
But voters should not be fabricating reasons to DNMC an entry. I have heard many say that they "assumed" it was something other than stationery. Why in the world would you assume that it is other than what the challenge dictated.
Lastly, if you ARE going to do that. Then have the bloody balls to provide a comment saying "Hey look, I'm a mean ol' fogie and I know the challenge says stationery. But that looks like a pre-made decoration. So I am going to give you a "1" cause I am assuming you are lying with regards to this entry."
Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
If you want to avoid getting DNMC votes, produce an image that is clearly within the spirit of the the challenge (and take a great photo!). |
Nice in theory, but that would require the SC to write 8 paragraphs outlining the "spirit" of each particular challenge. We see it so often. The variance of interpretation can be quite diverse even on the most simple of levels.
Originally posted by "coolhar":
You say this or that thing happens all the time while we all know there is no proof of it happening at all. |
*bites tongue to cease from responding*
Originally posted by "coolhar":
I still don't see why we should give benefit of the doubt on DNMC. |
Because coolhar, most people on this site are not liars.
Originally posted by "coolhar":
We always have discussions about entries getting so many low votes, but there are also lots of entries that don't get any, or get only a very few low votes. Somebody must be doing something right. Maybe that's the example to study and imitate. |
Yes, there some shots which will receive very few low votes. But do we really want 300 entries of hands holding pens as they write? Please no....
*shrug* |
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07/13/2006 11:36:32 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by yanko:
...when there is doubt, the photographer should get the benefit of the it. |
It is the photographer's resposibility to communicate to the audience, not the other way around. IMO the voters are perfectly entitled to think an entry doesn't meet the challenge, and are under no obligation to assume that they just can't see what surely must be present. There will always be variations in challenge interpretation, but avoiding the "popular" interpretation is a sure path to low votes. Even the most specific challenge descriptions offer infinite possibilities for creative solutions within the mainstream expectation of meeting the challenge.
Message edited by author 2006-07-13 11:42:40. |
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07/13/2006 12:50:38 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by yanko:
...when there is doubt, the photographer should get the benefit of the it. |
It is the photographer's resposibility to communicate to the audience, not the other way around. IMO the voters are perfectly entitled to think an entry doesn't meet the challenge, and are under no obligation to assume that they just can't see what surely must be present. There will always be variations in challenge interpretation, but avoiding the "popular" interpretation is a sure path to low votes. Even the most specific challenge descriptions offer infinite possibilities for creative solutions within the mainstream expectation of meeting the challenge. |
I still think when someone has to fabricate some assumption in order to DNMC a photo that it is improper.
But I am going to leave it at that... |
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07/13/2006 01:03:18 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
I still think when someone has to fabricate some assumption in order to DNMC a photo that it is improper.
But I am going to leave it at that... |
The problem you see... is that you are making an assumption about other peoples' assumption, which cannot be assumed in any quantifiable manner.
Ray |
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