US Health Reform - DPChallenge Forums

03/26/2010 03:23:47 PM · #301

BTW, lots of the information out there is general knowledge, reported on by everybody. Back room deals, last minute changes of heart, lack of overwhelming support, bi-partisan resistance, etc., was reported on by NBC on my own evening TV news...how about that? I didn't even need Fox to lie to me about any of that.

03/26/2010 03:38:19 PM · #302

Originally posted by farfel53:

How many Bill's have been passed in this here nation that weren't made with deals, last minute changes (Oh my goodness!)...like it's new terminology to some of you? People are acting like they were born yesterday...on this line. Catch up. BACK ROOM DEALS ??? The shock! ...the unmitigated audacity!

Is it right or wrong...whatever BUT it's the way Washington has ALWAYS worked...nothing new here or surprising and any politician pointing it out as a point of contention is patently full of shit. If ones guilty...they are all guilty. Another tired argument. What else do you have?

BTW most of this crap is purely partisan...at it's roots. I mean, this bill is almost exactly what Mitt Romney proposed but somehow he's now against the Bill. Go figure? McCain's even flip-floped on his own proposals. I mean, the bullshit never seems to have an end.

Message edited by author 2010-03-26 15:53:36.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

03/26/2010 03:59:49 PM · #303

Originally posted by LoudDog:

As for the terrorism comments, that is just sickening that you would stoop so low. Compare the majority of the citizens in the US to terrorist because a few yahoos acted stupidly? Really? That makes opponents of this bill look like people that shove bombs up their ass and kill innocent women and children? Really? the line is blurred? You are truly twisted.

...and where exactly did this happen?

I do strive to keep abreast of such things and can honestly say that I do not recall anything of the sort happening. Yes there was an incident where a suicide bomber attempted to do what you allude to, but unless I am very much mistaken, the only casualty (except for injuries to the Crown Prince) in that instance was the bomber.

Ray

03/26/2010 04:02:49 PM · #304

Nope, it's the same old crap, but with a different set of players, on a much bigger field of play, with larger and longer lasting consequences. No, we didn't like it much when Bush or Clinton or GHW Bush sat in that seat, and we like it even less the more mysterious and hush-hush it gets.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

03/26/2010 04:07:24 PM · #305

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by farfel53:
BTW, lots of the information out there is general knowledge, reported on by everybody. Back room deals, last minute changes of heart, lack of overwhelming support, bi-partisan resistance, etc., was reported on by NBC on my own evening TV news...how about that? I didn't even need Fox to lie to me about any of that.

How many Bill's have been passed in this here nation that weren't made with deals, last minute changes (Oh my goodness!)...like it's new terminology to some of you? People are acting like they were born yesterday...on this line. Catch up. BACK ROOM DEALS ??? The shock! ...the unmitigated audacity!

Is it right or wrong...whatever BUT it's the way Washington has ALWAYS worked...nothing new here or surprising and any politician pointing it out as a point of contention is patently full of shit. If ones guilty...they are all guilty. Another tired argument. What else do you have?

BTW most of this crap is purely partisan...at it's roots. I mean, this bill is almost exactly what Mitt Romney proposed but somehow he's now against the Bill. Go figure? McCain's even flip-floped on his own proposals. I mean, the bullshit never seems to have an end.

I only mention it because to some of you it seems the source of all of our bad feelings about this is misinformation by Fox. Sorry. It's all over.

And it may be purely partisan crap to you, but that's because, it seems to me, that you are purely partisan. There is a lot of resistance from both sides, but you guys won't hear of it. That's O.K. That's why we vote.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

03/26/2010 04:22:52 PM · #306

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Pass the largest most sweeping and consequential bill in a lifetime without even full support of the party that has massive majorities?

I feel compelled to point out that the Democratic Party is never unified on any legislation, so why would you expect it to be different with this bill? I think it's usually the case with the Republican Party, too, that some members will break from the majority, although not in this particular case. It's always been easier for the Republicans to be unified, in my opinion, because they represent a much narrower spectrum of opinion to begin with.

Originally posted by LoudDog:

A bill people overwhelmingly oppose?

Okay, a lot has already been said about the unreliability of polls on this issue, but again I feel compelled to point out that it's been widely reported that there is majority opposition to the generic Congressional bill, but when polled about specific aspects of the legislation there is majority support.

The latest Kaiser poll found about an even number supporting and opposing.

So I think it's fair to say that your conclusion that people overwhelmingly oppose the legislation is just wrong.

03/26/2010 04:55:28 PM · #307

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by yanko:
The sad irony is the republicans who are so gung-ho about torturing and killing every last terrorist are slowly blurring the line between them and those terrorists.

Yes they are in fact, becoming the terrorists and their cajoling is pretty much the same as any garden variety terrorist... only a little more slippery and indirect but will yield the same results. It's only a matter of time but if someone does something unconscionable and leaves a manifesto thanking Glen Beck, Palin, Hannity or FOX for their words of guidance, they will just pass the guy off as some nut that took what he said incorrectly...and never cop responsibility for a thing.

I was more reffering to Yanko's post, but you clearly agreed that people opposed to the bill (the majority) are blurring the line between them and terrorist.

You should work for AirAmerica! Oh wait, they died because no one wanted to listen to them...

FWIW, my reference was to the republican party but feel free to include the highly vocal supporters and of course FOX News.

03/26/2010 05:16:35 PM · #308

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Even if you agree with the bill, can anyone honestly say this bill passed the way a bill this important should pass in this country?

Umm yeah. Obama campaigned heavily on healthcare and won in a landslide. He and the democrats had the mandate to move forward with their healthcare reform with or without bipartisan support. Maybe if the republicans had any credibility left and didn't act like complete obstructionists they could have better shaped this bill. Instead they were the problem not the solution.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

03/26/2010 05:19:17 PM · #309

You guys are a riot. Disagreement from Fox, Beck, Palin, etc., is labeled "hate speech", but venom like this is "righteous indignation" or just "truth". Hahahaha. Shit smells the same whether it's on your right shoe or your left, people.

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

03/26/2010 06:36:21 PM · #310

Originally posted by farfel53:

You guys are a riot. Disagreement from Fox, Beck, Palin, etc., is labeled "hate speech", but venom like this is "righteous indignation" or just "truth". Hahahaha. Shit smells the same whether it's on your right shoe or your left, people.

What "venom" are you referring to?

********************************************

Michael Savage, Hate Speech, and Political Violence

You've got to listen to some of the audio on this page to get the full effect of this guy. If I weren't deranged already, after a steady diet of this stuff I certainly would be. Unfortunately, there's a large minority (millions) of folks in this country who listen to right-wing talk radio like this all day long.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/26/2010 06:51:18 PM · #311

Originally posted by farfel53:

Beck...truth? Palin...truth? WTF!

They're two of the biggest lyin reptiles to come around in a while. And FWIW I think there are plenty ofr reptilian Democrats, as well...Chuck Shumer my Senator comes to mind but wake up and smell your feet for cryin out loud. Those two and FOX are not the slightest bit interested in the truth as many of the fact check organizations equally prove...and add Newt to the list. He got busted a few times on the Daily Show alone (see/search: "Richard Reed Daily Newt"). Oddly, Jon Stewart is the toughest guy out there. He spikes each side quite a bit.

Back to health care. I think you can judge a countries greatness not by it's wealth or power but by how well it takes care of it's people. Nothing could be better than a healthy nation and to call it or label it as welfare or socialism is a complete mis-characterization...and just awful politics. Not to mention bullshit.

Message edited by author 2010-03-26 18:57:39.

Niten

Canon EOS-20D

03/26/2010 07:08:54 PM · #312

This bill passed with 60%. Thats a majority btw.

The American system is a representative system. When you try to make it a popular opinion system it goes to hell quickly. Its to easy for obstructionist to spread out right lies. In this case it took a while but the truth is finally getting threw and popular opinion came around.

If you want to flip flop and argue popular oppinion is what matters then please give us back the last 4 years of the republican presidency.

03/26/2010 07:22:21 PM · #313

Originally posted by Niten:

...and the Bush Tax Cuts (I'm not sure how that legislation ever passed...?) and the magical revenue increases they were supposed to create. I'd love to roll back the clock.

Message edited by author 2010-03-26 19:22:55.

03/26/2010 07:42:03 PM · #314

Originally posted by pawdrix:

...and the Bush Tax Cuts (I'm not sure how that legislation ever passed...?)

Through the reconciliation process...

03/26/2010 07:57:26 PM · #315

Ah yesss. I knew the process of reconciliation sounded familiar.

03/26/2010 08:29:23 PM · #316

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Of the things that people are unhappy about in this healthcare bill, which are myths and disinformation?

Mandating that people buy coverage?
Big govt handouts?
Taxes?
Lies about reducing the deficit?
Govt dictating minimum coverage?
Govt control?
Backroom deals?
Govt access to medical records?
Bribes?
No effort to reduce costs?
No freedom to buy percription drugs over the border?
No freedom to shop for insurance out of state?
Bigger govt?
Thousands of new govt employees to enforce rules?
Whitehouse staff and congress left out of the bill?
over 100 new govt agencies created...

Still waiting to hear which of these is myths and misinformation... I keep hearing misinformation but no one is explaining what the misinformation is? Other then people thinking that this bill gives health insurance to 32 million people, what are people getting wrong?

ETA the fact that all of congress and the whitehouse excluded themselves from this plan to the list of things people are mad about.

Message edited by author 2010-03-26 20:37:48.

03/26/2010 08:35:51 PM · #317

Of the things that people are unhappy about in this healthcare bill, which are myths and disinformation?

Big govt handouts?
Taxes?
Lies about reducing the deficit?
Govt dictating minimum coverage?
Govt control?
Govt access to medical records?
Bribes?
No effort to reduce costs?
No freedom to buy percription drugs over the border?
No freedom to shop for insurance out of state?
Bigger govt?
Thousands of new govt employees to enforce rules?
over 100 new govt agencies created...

I think that's mostly bullshit, exaggeration or things that aren't all that alarming unless you're out of touch with the way government has always worked or wildly paranoid.

As far as deficit reduction...there's data that cuts both ways so, I'm not sure that's valid. Gov't access to medical records would cut down on repetitive treatments and freer sharing of information between doctors...as a cost cutting measure, which I'm fine with. Also if you ever find yourself (or a family member) on an operating table is a different State and minutes are at stake you might not mind so much that the Hospital can trace your history...again, I'd chalk that up to garden variety paranoia from the nay sayers.

Bribes? I assume you're talking about the sweetheart deals a few States were to receive...I know a number of them if not ALL were removed from the Bill which was passed.

Taxes...I don't mind paying taxes for things I believe are good such as, Healthcare, the Military, Clean water, good roads, Schools etc. I had trouble with Tax cuts for the rich and paying taxes for Iraq but otherwise I'm cool with them. I'm curious whether you had deficit issues when GW Bush was driving them up through the roof?

Govt dictating minimum coverage? Not sure what you're referring to BUT I do know there's no maximum spending caps in a few measures I've read about which seems inconsistent with your claim. Please clarify.

It's a goof-ball list. Try again.

Message edited by author 2010-03-26 21:01:35.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/26/2010 08:39:45 PM · #318

Originally posted by pawdrix:

You think, huh. Not good enough. I think you have misinformation.

This is what is making people mad, which is untrue? And please explain how it's untrue.

Niten

Canon EOS-20D

03/26/2010 08:51:25 PM · #319

Originally posted by LoudDog:

I see your goofy list and notice there are a couple of good ideas there. Prescription drugs and out of state insurance. For about 2 votes you could have had both in the plan. To bad they wouldn't bring them to the table.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

03/26/2010 09:01:41 PM · #320

Originally posted by Niten:

I see your goofy list...

Maybe you think it's goofy, but others don't think it's too goofy.

Are any of them misinformation?

Add another to the "goofy list" of things people are angry about:

Because employers can no longer deduct perscription drug benefits for their retired workers, they will incur rather large tax increases. AT&T estimates it will cost them 1 billion dollars, 3M says 90 billion. I work for a comany with a large group of retired people getting benefits so I'm willing to bet I'll be seeing changes to my healthcare plan, which obama promised I can keep...

Niten

Canon EOS-20D

03/26/2010 09:59:34 PM · #321

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by Niten:
I see your goofy list...

Maybe you think it's goofy, but others don't think it's too goofy.

Are any of them misinformation?

Add another to the "goofy list" of things people are angry about:

Because employers can no longer deduct perscription drug benefits for their retired workers, they will incur rather large tax increases. AT&T estimates it will cost them 1 billion dollars, 3M says 90 billion. I work for a comany with a large group of retired people getting benefits so I'm willing to bet I'll be seeing changes to my healthcare plan, which obama promised I can keep...

Lets start with what should be on the top of your list.
Death Panels clearly a myth
When you admit that its a lie and was maliciously told to scare people then we can move on to item 2.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/26/2010 10:31:42 PM · #322

Originally posted by Niten:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by Niten:
I see your goofy list...

Maybe you think it's goofy, but others don't think it's too goofy.

Are any of them misinformation?

Add another to the "goofy list" of things people are angry about:

Because employers can no longer deduct perscription drug benefits for their retired workers, they will incur rather large tax increases. AT&T estimates it will cost them 1 billion dollars, 3M says 90 billion. I work for a comany with a large group of retired people getting benefits so I'm willing to bet I'll be seeing changes to my healthcare plan, which obama promised I can keep...

Lets start with what should be on the top of your list.
Death Panels clearly a myth
When you admit that its a lie and was maliciously told to scare people then we can move on to item 2.

The only people talking about death panels today are libs, and it's not on my list. Next.

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

03/26/2010 11:22:59 PM · #323

quote=LoudDog]

Originally posted by Niten:

The only people talking about death panels today are libs, and it's not on my list. Next. [/quote]

I'll work on your list tomorrow, but leave you with this (number 1 on your list)....

Individual health insurance mandate started as a Republican idea

//www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/23/1544321/individual-health-insurance-mandate.html[

//www.texastribune.org/blogs/post/2010/mar/23/tribblog-texas-already-mandates-health-insurance/

Message edited by author 2010-03-26 23:25:43.

03/26/2010 11:38:24 PM · #324

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Add another to the "goofy list" of things people are angry about:

Because employers can no longer deduct perscription drug benefits for their retired workers, they will incur rather large tax increases. AT&T estimates it will cost them 1 billion dollars, 3M says 90 billion. I work for a comany with a large group of retired people getting benefits so I'm willing to bet I'll be seeing changes to my healthcare plan, which obama promised I can keep...

So you don't like government handouts but you'd gladly accept corporate handouts? Maybe it's time you don't rely on your employer for affordable healthcare and go out and buy it on your own. At least when Limbaugh runs his mouth on this subject he's not a hypocrite.

Message edited by author 2010-03-26 23:38:42.