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04/16/2010 08:10:30 PM · #1
Originally posted by Matthew:

Should the solution to a shortage of doctors per capita be to exclude the poorest people from access to doctors?

Originally posted by glad2badad:

No, I wouldn't think that's a proper "solution".

However, it does seem like a crummy "solution" to expect people to pay more for insurance coverage and receive a lower quality of service than they were getting before. Lower quality meaning access to fewer properly trained doctors and longer wait times to obtain services. [Emphasis added]


Your article cited a study that concluded there was no difference in patient outcomes between those who were treated by nurses as opposed to those treated by M.D.s. Furthermore, I would expect that seeing a nurse as opposed to a doctor will reduce overall costs, and reduce wait times. Additionally, there is money in the bill/law for doctor training, loan forgiveness, etc. I guess I'm not that concerned about the nurse vs. doctor question because where I live, in a rural community, the health care system is already structured so that, in general, nurses or physician assistants are the first people one sees when seeking medical treatment, and the system seems to work well as far as I can see.
04/16/2010 03:59:34 PM · #2
Originally posted by tehben:

Well put spiritualspatula, K10DGuy, RayEthier and Niten.

//sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html If there isn't something wrong with this, then.....


Don't expect a whole lot of outrage over this from the ultra conservatives on the site. After all why get upset over capitalism gone awry decade after decade when you still want that piece of the pie? So what happens? The anger gets directed toward the end results (i.e. the poor) and not the cause (i.e. capitalism).
04/16/2010 12:54:41 PM · #3
Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

... Will healthcare providers be able to keep up with the increased demand? (Will I get the same level of service...I'm thinking, probably not)

A thought I posted a few weeks back. Seems that there could be a real strain on available resources (trained physicians, doctors, etc...) in the immediate near future.

Should the solution to a shortage of doctors per capita be to exclude the poorest people from access to doctors?

No, I wouldn't think that's a proper "solution".

However, it does seem like a crummy "solution" to expect people to pay more for insurance coverage and receive a lower quality of service than they were getting before. Lower quality meaning access to fewer properly trained doctors and longer wait times to obtain services.

Hopefully the medical field will adjust over time and catch-up to meet the increased demand on services.

Here's the article that I referenced that was left out of the quote you used: Doctor shortage? 28 states may expand nurses' role
04/16/2010 12:25:12 PM · #4
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

... Will healthcare providers be able to keep up with the increased demand? (Will I get the same level of service...I'm thinking, probably not)

A thought I posted a few weeks back. Seems that there could be a real strain on available resources (trained physicians, doctors, etc...) in the immediate near future.


Should the solution to a shortage of doctors per capita be to exclude the poorest people from access to doctors?


04/15/2010 11:45:19 PM · #5
Heck, I already see a nurse practioner when I make an appointment with my doctor. Same thing happens to my family, too. And that's on the current health system.
04/13/2010 03:56:41 PM · #6
Originally posted by glad2badad:

... Will healthcare providers be able to keep up with the increased demand? (Will I get the same level of service...I'm thinking, probably not)

A thought I posted a few weeks back. Seems that there could be a real strain on available resources (trained physicians, doctors, etc...) in the immediate near future.

Doctor shortage? 28 states may expand nurses' role

I'm sure there are positives and negatives that can be isolated from this article to support both sides of the argument for/against the new US Health Reform. Overall, I thought it was an interesting read...take from it what you want.
04/10/2010 10:00:39 AM · #7
Originally posted by kawesttex:



You might want to move to Cuba for a couple (decades) and see how fine that system works. There are other examples you could move to, but that is reachable by an unpowered boat. In fact you might be able to get one for free from those that leave the system Cuba has and arrive in Florida. I am sure they will give you the boat for free. (That fit's your idea of a perfect system) Don't forget, don't speak out about any of the problems you see or you may be getting alot more help than you want. But it will include free food (don't know how much they serve in prison), free bed (really not sure what that includes), and you won't even have to work for it.

Cheers


That really isn't a fair comparison. You cannot compare US Health reform with a country that is impoverished due to sanctions and trade embargoes.

A better comparison would be Canada, or any other G8 Country, where the economies are similar. Canada has higher live expectancies, and lower per capita health care costs than the US. Trust me, its a great system.
04/09/2010 08:52:16 AM · #8
Originally posted by kawesttex:

You might want to move to Cuba for a couple (decades) and see how fine that system works. ....

Ah, the old "love it or leave it"
04/09/2010 04:19:57 AM · #9
Well put spiritualspatula, K10DGuy, RayEthier and Niten.

//sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html If there isn't something wrong with this, then.....
04/09/2010 12:49:38 AM · #10
Originally posted by kawesttex:


ETA: ps, I'm not afraid to let everyone know where I live either.


Thats because your not the one argueing with the crazies.
04/08/2010 11:44:00 PM · #11
Originally posted by kawesttex:



MSgt Ken West (Ret)
USAF 1972-1993

ETA: ps, I'm not afraid to let everyone know where I live either.


...and this tidbit of information was added to the discussion, because???

Ray
04/08/2010 10:58:17 PM · #12
Originally posted by kawesttex:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by kawesttex:



What you support takes away from democracy and a free market society where people can make themselves winners. A radical example is Bill Gates. Dropped out of college and started a computer company. He now donates millions of dollars annually to charities and education. I think his company employs a few Americans also, but I'll have to check the facts unless you'll take my word for it. Again, you may want to check out some of the other locations located around the world that fit in you social taxing scheme. I have paid and continue to pay dearly in taxes (I'm not rich either) and just continues to escalate to give to those that don't want, or won't work for a living and help.


Does it really make sense to say that every American can become the richest (for a period) American? I'm not disputing that there is a chance that this happens, but that's kinda like saying everybody should enter the lottery because of how possible it is. The fact remains that while these cases of great success exist the vast majority of wealth as well as success is confined to an extremely small portion of the population, and a huge portion of this success is created at the expense of those at the bottom. Because of the manner in which things are structured, there is no way one can feasibly expect many individuals to ever progress beyond minimum wage positions and lifestyle (for a plethora of reasons).
Before the tirade about how I'm asking for the wealth to be "spread around to the undeserving" is volleyed my way, I'll go ahead and tell you that isn't what I'm saying. I'm not proposing a solution, I'm stating a fact. The class mobility we oft hear spouted does not exist to nearly the extent that people pretend it does, and this has been borne out by countless studies on sociological trends. How do we increase class mobility so that this system that the public pretends exists, actually DOES?


What makes it possible is for people to get off of their backsides and actually work for something instead of whining they didn't get a fair shake/education (which they wasted) and want it handed to them. Sorry, no sympathy here for those that don't try. Some people have actually limited themselves to the minimum wage lifestyle and refuse to improve. Not my problem and shouldn't be on my dime.

ETA: It may not be a lotto win, but it beats begging for food.


Your answer here makes it clear that you have very little idea of how many things in life actually work.

Message edited by author 2010-04-08 22:58:52.
04/08/2010 10:36:25 PM · #13
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by kawesttex:



What you support takes away from democracy and a free market society where people can make themselves winners. A radical example is Bill Gates. Dropped out of college and started a computer company. He now donates millions of dollars annually to charities and education. I think his company employs a few Americans also, but I'll have to check the facts unless you'll take my word for it. Again, you may want to check out some of the other locations located around the world that fit in you social taxing scheme. I have paid and continue to pay dearly in taxes (I'm not rich either) and just continues to escalate to give to those that don't want, or won't work for a living and help.


Does it really make sense to say that every American can become the richest (for a period) American? I'm not disputing that there is a chance that this happens, but that's kinda like saying everybody should enter the lottery because of how possible it is. The fact remains that while these cases of great success exist the vast majority of wealth as well as success is confined to an extremely small portion of the population, and a huge portion of this success is created at the expense of those at the bottom. Because of the manner in which things are structured, there is no way one can feasibly expect many individuals to ever progress beyond minimum wage positions and lifestyle (for a plethora of reasons).
Before the tirade about how I'm asking for the wealth to be "spread around to the undeserving" is volleyed my way, I'll go ahead and tell you that isn't what I'm saying. I'm not proposing a solution, I'm stating a fact. The class mobility we oft hear spouted does not exist to nearly the extent that people pretend it does, and this has been borne out by countless studies on sociological trends. How do we increase class mobility so that this system that the public pretends exists, actually DOES?


What makes it possible is for people to get off of their backsides and actually work for something instead of whining they didn't get a fair shake/education (which they wasted) and want it handed to them. Sorry, no sympathy here for those that don't try. Some people have actually limited themselves to the minimum wage lifestyle and refuse to improve. Not my problem and shouldn't be on my dime.

ETA: It may not be a lotto win, but it beats begging for food.

Message edited by author 2010-04-08 22:37:06.
04/08/2010 10:30:12 PM · #14
Originally posted by kawesttex:



What you support takes away from democracy and a free market society where people can make themselves winners. A radical example is Bill Gates. Dropped out of college and started a computer company. He now donates millions of dollars annually to charities and education. I think his company employs a few Americans also, but I'll have to check the facts unless you'll take my word for it. Again, you may want to check out some of the other locations located around the world that fit in you social taxing scheme. I have paid and continue to pay dearly in taxes (I'm not rich either) and just continues to escalate to give to those that don't want, or won't work for a living and help.


Does it really make sense to say that every American can become the richest (for a period) American? I'm not disputing that there is a chance that this happens, but that's kinda like saying everybody should enter the lottery because of how possible it is. The fact remains that while these cases of great success exist the vast majority of wealth as well as success is confined to an extremely small portion of the population, and a huge portion of this success is created at the expense of those at the bottom. Because of the manner in which things are structured, there is no way one can feasibly expect many individuals to ever progress beyond minimum wage positions and lifestyle (for a plethora of reasons).
Before the tirade about how I'm asking for the wealth to be "spread around to the undeserving" is volleyed my way, I'll go ahead and tell you that isn't what I'm saying. I'm not proposing a solution, I'm stating a fact. The class mobility we oft hear spouted does not exist to nearly the extent that people pretend it does, and this has been borne out by countless studies on sociological trends. How do we increase class mobility so that this system that the public pretends exists, actually DOES?
04/08/2010 08:23:38 PM · #15
Originally posted by tehben:

Originally posted by David Ey:

You have a lot to learn kiddo.


Is this where I say You haven't learned a lot old man ;)

Kawesttex: I never said anything about wanting to live in a communistic country. Cuba isn't a Democracy but then again I don't' think the US is either, we are the opposite extreme. I believe Democracy falls somewhere in between.

Can someone give me some examples of of how corporate control benefits the citizens of the US?


What you support takes away from democracy and a free market society where people can make themselves winners. A radical example is Bill Gates. Dropped out of college and started a computer company. He now donates millions of dollars annually to charities and education. I think his company employs a few Americans also, but I'll have to check the facts unless you'll take my word for it. Again, you may want to check out some of the other locations located around the world that fit in you social taxing scheme. I have paid and continue to pay dearly in taxes (I'm not rich either) and just continues to escalate to give to those that don't want, or won't work for a living and help.

As far as the military. They have protected your right to say exactly what you have said without consequence. No fear here in the US, but not everywhere in the world. Be careful of what you ask for since this may lead to you're capability to speak freely.

MSgt Ken West (Ret)
USAF 1972-1993

ETA: ps, I'm not afraid to let everyone know where I live either.

Message edited by author 2010-04-08 20:26:43.
04/08/2010 08:13:12 PM · #16
Originally posted by David Ey:

You have a lot to learn kiddo.


Is this where I say You haven't learned a lot old man ;)

Kawesttex: I never said anything about wanting to live in a communistic country. Cuba isn't a Democracy but then again I don't' think the US is either, we are the opposite extreme. I believe Democracy falls somewhere in between.

Can someone give me some examples of of how corporate control benefits the citizens of the US?
04/08/2010 08:04:30 PM · #17
Originally posted by kawesttex:

Originally posted by tehben:

In response to the original post:

This is what happens when you have a system set up by the top 1% for the top 1%. Not all Americans are what the media makes them out to be. The problem with our country is that it is run by and for the profit of corporations. These guys spend billions brainwashing the masses to believe that what they say is good for the public, and so when anyone tries to do something that actually benefits the people they are likely to get major opposition from the very people they are trying to help. Great talking points to get people that don't know any better are "it's socialism" "your freedom is at stake" "thats unpatriotic" " OMG they are raising taxes!" (even if it is only for the rich).

The whole corporate structure this country is run on is based on making people believe that if you work hard enough you can make it to the top. This is what the "top" want's you to believe so they can continue to steal and control.

I personally want public universal healthcare paid for with taxes and a health care system based on health and not corporate profit (might just lower costs).

If we spent less money on the military and more on public services I think we would be a better country.

@ the people who say that public health care would be abused by lazy people, yes it will, but I would rather that then the current system where it is abused by money seeking mega corporations. Let a few lazy individuals cheat you or the richest people on the planet...


You might want to move to Cuba for a couple (decades) and see how fine that system works. There are other examples you could move to, but that is reachable by an unpowered boat. In fact you might be able to get one for free from those that leave the system Cuba has and arrive in Florida. I am sure they will give you the boat for free. (That fit's your idea of a perfect system) Don't forget, don't speak out about any of the problems you see or you may be getting alot more help than you want. But it will include free food (don't know how much they serve in prison), free bed (really not sure what that includes), and you won't even have to work for it.

Cheers


Oh, and let me know how that works out for you. I might learn something. (But I doubt it)
04/08/2010 08:00:35 PM · #18
Originally posted by tehben:

In response to the original post:

This is what happens when you have a system set up by the top 1% for the top 1%. Not all Americans are what the media makes them out to be. The problem with our country is that it is run by and for the profit of corporations. These guys spend billions brainwashing the masses to believe that what they say is good for the public, and so when anyone tries to do something that actually benefits the people they are likely to get major opposition from the very people they are trying to help. Great talking points to get people that don't know any better are "it's socialism" "your freedom is at stake" "thats unpatriotic" " OMG they are raising taxes!" (even if it is only for the rich).

The whole corporate structure this country is run on is based on making people believe that if you work hard enough you can make it to the top. This is what the "top" want's you to believe so they can continue to steal and control.

I personally want public universal healthcare paid for with taxes and a health care system based on health and not corporate profit (might just lower costs).

If we spent less money on the military and more on public services I think we would be a better country.

@ the people who say that public health care would be abused by lazy people, yes it will, but I would rather that then the current system where it is abused by money seeking mega corporations. Let a few lazy individuals cheat you or the richest people on the planet...


You might want to move to Cuba for a couple (decades) and see how fine that system works. There are other examples you could move to, but that is reachable by an unpowered boat. In fact you might be able to get one for free from those that leave the system Cuba has and arrive in Florida. I am sure they will give you the boat for free. (That fit's your idea of a perfect system) Don't forget, don't speak out about any of the problems you see or you may be getting alot more help than you want. But it will include free food (don't know how much they serve in prison), free bed (really not sure what that includes), and you won't even have to work for it.

Cheers

Message edited by author 2010-04-08 20:01:22.
04/08/2010 07:51:55 PM · #19
You have a lot to learn kiddo.
04/08/2010 07:47:48 PM · #20
In response to the original post:

This is what happens when you have a system set up by the top 1% for the top 1%. Not all Americans are what the media makes them out to be. The problem with our country is that it is run by and for the profit of corporations. These guys spend billions brainwashing the masses to believe that what they say is good for the public, and so when anyone tries to do something that actually benefits the people they are likely to get major opposition from the very people they are trying to help. Great talking points to get people that don't know any better are "it's socialism" "your freedom is at stake" "thats unpatriotic" " OMG they are raising taxes!" (even if it is only for the rich).

The whole corporate structure this country is run on is based on making people believe that if you work hard enough you can make it to the top. This is what the "top" want's you to believe so they can continue to steal and control.

I personally want public universal healthcare paid for with taxes and a health care system based on health and not corporate profit (might just lower costs).

If we spent less money on the military and more on public services I think we would be a better country.

@ the people who say that public health care would be abused by lazy people, yes it will, but I would rather that then the current system where it is abused by money seeking mega corporations. Let a few lazy individuals cheat you or the richest people on the planet...
04/06/2010 09:51:14 AM · #21
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

The tax break was to fix a problem, are you opposed to tax breaks to encourage businesses to cover employees?

Since when are you OK with deducting a government subsidy as an expense?


We Call That Double Dipping
04/03/2010 01:12:55 PM · #22
Originally posted by LoudDog:

The tax break was to fix a problem, are you opposed to tax breaks to encourage businesses to cover employees?

Since when are you OK with deducting a government subsidy as an expense?
04/03/2010 12:01:01 PM · #23
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Wait... WHAT?!?! You're against government healthcare "handouts," but when a Republication president and congress offer them that's not a problem? You complain about government spending, but when a Democratic administration makes an effort to rein in costs by closing a loophole that allowed a double-dip tax break, that IS a problem? Pardon me, but your true colors are showing.


Nice strawman...

The tax break was to fix a problem, are you opposed to tax breaks to encourage businesses to cover employees? You do know this plan has several tax breaks to encourage businesses to cover employees? When will those breaks be pulled because the deficit is too big and we can't have tax loop holes to evil corporations?

Bait and switch is okay as long as it's done to big companies and you benefit? Your true colors are showing too.


The problem in this instance is that your argument is premised on situational factors that have not yet transpired.

I am not all that familiar with the US economy but rest assured that in this country individuals would love to get some of the tax breaks, interest free loans and other perks offered to corporations.

Ray
04/03/2010 11:46:26 AM · #24
Originally posted by scalvert:

Wait... WHAT?!?! You're against government healthcare "handouts," but when a Republication president and congress offer them that's not a problem? You complain about government spending, but when a Democratic administration makes an effort to rein in costs by closing a loophole that allowed a double-dip tax break, that IS a problem? Pardon me, but your true colors are showing.


Nice strawman...

The tax break was to fix a problem, are you opposed to tax breaks to encourage businesses to cover employees? You do know this plan has several tax breaks to encourage businesses to cover employees? When will those breaks be pulled because the deficit is too big and we can't have tax loop holes to evil corporations?

Bait and switch is okay as long as it's done to big companies and you benefit? Your true colors are showing too.
04/03/2010 01:48:05 AM · #25
Wait... WHAT?!?! You're against government healthcare "handouts," but when a Republication president and congress offer them that's not a problem? You complain about government spending, but when a Democratic administration makes an effort to rein in costs by closing a loophole that allowed a double-dip tax break, that IS a problem? Pardon me, but your true colors are showing.
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