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03/25/2010 11:26:59 AM · #276 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Niten:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Insurance is only unnecessary if you can afford to pay for any situation that comes up without it. Most people don't have that luxury.
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What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take. |
NOBODY decides to take that risk to save a few dollars. |
Bullshit. My neighbor has a $600,000 house, two brand new full size trucks, and a fairly new boat. He went a year without health insurance for his family because his business slowed down and he had to cut cost somewhere. I doubt he's the only one. |
He doesn't need to be makeing is own decisions. Thats a great argument for mandating insurance. Maybe we could give him a call and get him to do some rallies. |
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03/25/2010 12:00:41 PM · #277 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
My problem is, if the govt is always there to bail everyone out, what is the incentive to not do stupid stuff? If everytime you screw up the govt helps you up and wipes your ass, what do you learn form your mistakes. Who cares if i get fired for skipping work, the govt will take care of me, who cares if I can't afford this house in three years when the interest rate climbs, the govt will take care of me... Do what you want, take big risks, it'll all be okay, obama has your back. |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
The problem with these kinds of arguments is that life doesn't work out the way you fear it will in reality. How many democracies have socialized health care, and how many of those have the kinds of problems you all are so sure will result from socialized health care? Zero? How many of the folks who post here in the forums who have lived under both systems have said they prefer our model to the socialized health care model? Zero! So if you want to engage in an intellectual exercise about what might happen if we inch closer to universal health care, that's fine. But let's not pretend these arguments are anything more than straw-man arguments intended to frighten people or make them feel ashamed. The only reason so many Americans fall for these kinds of falsehoods is because so many of us have never stepped foot beyond our own borders. |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
problem is, this isn't socialized health care. |
What's the problem? You have the same objections and raise the same meaningless arguments to the features the systems have in common (more government involvement, the requirement that everyone pay in). Nice try, though. |
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03/25/2010 03:10:52 PM · #278 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by shamrock:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Yes, 4 years of taxes before any real benefits. But yes, we only tax the rich people so we can take more from the haves and give it to the have nots. Of course most know the haves really don't pay taxes. business owners raise prices and/or lay people off, they will have one gardner instead of two, others donate less money, at the end of the day they still get their's and we'll pay for it. |
*sigh* I really want to know where all these holes for getting out of paying taxes are. We make over $200K annually, but we also paid more in taxes this year than we EARNED the first two years we were married. |
hire a better tax person/financial planner |
We've talked to a financial planner, and all the things they suggest to us to cut our tax bill winds up costing us more money elsewhere. I don't need a second house. I don't want to make risky investments to claim a write-off. I don't want to buy real estate to rent out and claim a loss on, only to ultimately have to pay a ginormous recuperating tax bill, or leave it to my children to pay. I don't even think that we pay an exorbitant amount of tax on our income. What i do think is that the claims that the "wealthy" (which seems to mean anyone making over $200K) are not being taxed are false. I think that there is a very, very small percentage of the US that makes a huge income and doesn't pay, percentage wise, as much as the middle class, but i think there are FAR more low income folks that pay no tax at all.
And that's why i am in favor of a flat rate tax, no exemptions and none of this crap that generates a loss on paper so you don't have to pay your fair share.
Now, as far as the health care reform, i'm in favor of it, and i'm glad they did SOMETHING, even though i think this is far from what they need to do. We'll benefit from the legislation just passed, as it means my son (21 in June) won't be going without insurance just because he only goes to school part-time. |
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03/25/2010 03:19:40 PM · #279 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Niten:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Insurance is only unnecessary if you can afford to pay for any situation that comes up without it. Most people don't have that luxury.
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What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take. |
NOBODY decides to take that risk to save a few dollars. |
Bullshit. My neighbor has a $600,000 house, two brand new full size trucks, and a fairly new boat. He went a year without health insurance for his family because his business slowed down and he had to cut cost somewhere. I doubt he's the only one. |
Well then he's lucky nothing happened during his time without health insurance or he may have lost his house or at least a truck (or two) or the boat. |
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03/25/2010 03:54:05 PM · #280 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Niten:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Insurance is only unnecessary if you can afford to pay for any situation that comes up without it. Most people don't have that luxury.
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What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take. |
NOBODY decides to take that risk to save a few dollars. |
Bullshit. My neighbor has a $600,000 house, two brand new full size trucks, and a fairly new boat. He went a year without health insurance for his family because his business slowed down and he had to cut cost somewhere. I doubt he's the only one. |
Well then he's lucky nothing happened during his time without health insurance or he may have lost his house or at least a truck (or two) or the boat. |
Millions of people take that risk and a good deal of them lose. Happens all the time and that's part of the bankruptcy debate which is no joke...quite real, in fact and I know a few people that went down. Personally, I think your neighbors a schmuck for gambling with his families health and well being to save a few bucks...if I got the story straight. His fortunes could have turned ugly on a dime.
Message edited by author 2010-03-25 15:54:46. |
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03/25/2010 04:31:08 PM · #281 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
What if I'm willing to take the risk to let medical debt pile up if I get sick in return for the thousands I save if I don't get sick? It's a gamble some take. |
Maybe you're willing to risk not wearing a seatbelt, crossing a railroad when the gates are down, trying cocaine, taking counterfeit prescription drugs, or wiping out your 401k account early. Where practical, governments have some duty to protect citizens from their own lousy choices, too (especially when the potential consequences pose an even greater burden to others). Some people are willing to gamble their lives with smoking. As with smoking, you'll still have the option, but pay a similar tax designed to discourage the poor decision. The annual tax (starting in 2014 at $95) will be less than even a single month of insurance premiums, so spare us the whining. |
I think it's sad. We are incapable of taking care of ourselves, we are too stupid to be trusted to make our own decisions. What a great country. Thank god (or what/who ever you want) we have the dems to protect us. |
Well clearly not everyone is as perfect as you. Yes people do make mistakes and *gasp* sometimes start out life in extreme hardship with no silver spoon in their mouths. Hard to imagine I know. |
Thanks for recognizing my perfection, but I assure you there was never a silver spoon anywhere near me.
My problem is, if the govt is always there to bail everyone out, what is the incentive to not do stupid stuff? If everytime you screw up the govt helps you up and wipes your ass, what do you learn form your mistakes. Who cares if i get fired for skipping work, the govt will take care of me, who cares if I can't afford this house in three years when the interest rate climbs, the govt will take care of me... Do what you want, take big risks, it'll all be okay, obama has your back. |
The government isn't always there to bail everyone out. You act as if people haven't been doing stupid stuff before this bill. Besides, this wasn't an "incentive to do good" bill. It was a healthcare bill. Now, if you're so concern about people having an incentive to do good then maybe you should start with the dismantling of capitalism since the only incentive in that system is to make a profit. |
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03/25/2010 05:20:59 PM · #282 |
Originally posted by yanko:
The government isn't always there to bail everyone out. |
it will be if some people have their way. |
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03/26/2010 09:52:43 AM · #283 |
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03/26/2010 10:18:31 AM · #284 |
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03/26/2010 11:13:23 AM · #285 |
I really hope that the Republican leadership and FOX News are more careful how they frame their rhetoric...and distance themselves from what can easily be seen as inflammatory imagery and language.
I know Glen Beck has been dismissive of stirring the already, over boiling pot but as we're seeing, somethings about to give and people are going to get hurt. Between Sarah Palins "cross hairs" and John Boehner's "Armageddon" Michael Steeles "firing line" they are going to have tough time distancing themselves if and when someone get's killed. Also, suggesting that people "start loading their guns" is pure insanity. I think it's only a matter of time...minutes maybe, if the guy flying his plane into the IRS office wasn't enough of an omen that the shits' going to hit the fan. I doubt they'll cop to any wrong doing BUT I think it's going to come home and bite them badly in the ass. The fringe is unhinged and loaded with bullets, anger and a ton of misinformation. It's no joke.
eta: You know what's really crazy? I'm thinking of buying a gun but I'll have to put it off because I just bought a Nikon 60mm macro.
Message edited by author 2010-03-26 11:58:41. |
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03/26/2010 12:53:55 PM · #286 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I really hope that the Republican leadership and FOX News are more careful how they frame their rhetoric...and distance themselves from what can easily be seen as inflammatory imagery and language.
I know Glen Beck has been dismissive of stirring the already, over boiling pot but as we're seeing, somethings about to give and people are going to get hurt. Between Sarah Palins "cross hairs" and John Boehner's "Armageddon" Michael Steeles "firing line" they are going to have tough time distancing themselves if and when someone get's killed. Also, suggesting that people "start loading their guns" is pure insanity. I think it's only a matter of time...minutes maybe, if the guy flying his plane into the IRS office wasn't enough of an omen that the shits' going to hit the fan. I doubt they'll cop to any wrong doing BUT I think it's going to come home and bite them badly in the ass. The fringe is unhinged and loaded with bullets, anger and a ton of misinformation. It's no joke.
eta: You know what's really crazy? I'm thinking of buying a gun but I'll have to put it off because I just bought a Nikon 60mm macro.
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The sad irony is the republicans who are so gung-ho about torturing and killing every last terrorist are slowly blurring the line between them and those terrorists. |
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03/26/2010 01:47:15 PM · #287 |
| What a crock. A few lunatics...that exist in every fringe of every society...start to act up and it becomes "republicans" and Beck and Limbaugh. Yes, we're pissed off, but the overwhelming majority of us are civilised and will take up our fight at the ballot box. Violence can be dealt with by the LAW...if anyone really cares to enforce law any more. A few idiots do not invalidate our argument, nor paint us all as gun-toting yay-hoos, any more than a few of YOUR idiots makes you all far-left commie puppets. |
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03/26/2010 01:47:34 PM · #288 |
Originally posted by yanko:
The sad irony is the republicans who are so gung-ho about torturing and killing every last terrorist are slowly blurring the line between them and those terrorists. |
Yes they are in fact, becoming the terrorists and their cajoling is pretty much the same as any garden variety terrorist...only a little more slippery and indirect but will yield the same results. It's only a matter of time but if someone does something unconscionable and leaves a manifesto thanking Glen Beck, Palin, Hannity or FOX for their words of guidance, they will just pass the guy off as some nut that took what he said incorrectly...and never cop responsibility for a thing.
Originally posted by farfel53:
A few idiots do not invalidate our argument, nor paint us all as gun-toting yay-hoos, any more than a few of YOUR idiots makes you all far-left commie puppets. |
Easy...easy Texas. It's not just a few idiots, there's a lot idiots and they have already begun acting violently. Not to mention they are directly quoting incorrect facts that FOX has been putting out for quite some time. Even the fact the you're referring to people that want healthcare reform or anything government related in terms of assitance as"commie puppets" shows how warped you are. It's a far leap to make. No offense but it's healthcare and a debate based on a screwed up system that kills people, drives them into bankruptcy and is anything but Doctor/Patient related but it's nature. It wouldn't makes us Socialists or Communists to adapt any system that covers people health and well being.
âkeep your government hands off my Medicare.â
Message edited by author 2010-03-26 14:01:32. |
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03/26/2010 02:02:22 PM · #289 |
The violence and threats are inexcusable and should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. However, does this come to a shock to anyone? Pass the largest most sweeping and consequential bill in a lifetime without even full support of the party that has massive majorities? A bill people overwhelmingly oppose? A bill that only passed because of back room deals, bribes, threats and compromises with special interests? People are pissed. This is not how government should work in the United States of America.
Again because I know people here like to twist words and intentionally misquote. I DO NOT CONDONE VIOLENCE OVER THIS!
Even if you agree with the bill, can anyone honestly say this bill passed the way a bill this important should pass in this country?
And as for the posters that keep talking about misinformation, every uninformed person Iâve talked to about this bill seems to think this is free government healthcare and how could anyone be opposed to a bill that gives 32 million people health insurance? Well, it does expand Medicaid so some people will get free care. However, the rest of the 32 million are forced to buy it, not given it for free! Even the poorest people not qualifying for Medicaid pay a pretty good sum after the free handouts (3-10% of their income).
Furthermore, this is not a republican democrat thing. Opposition to this bill is bipartisan.
Message edited by author 2010-03-26 14:03:24. |
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03/26/2010 02:07:58 PM · #290 |
As for the terrorism comments, that is just sickening that you would stoop so low. Compare the majority of the citizens in the US to terrorist because a few yahoos acted stupidly? Really? That makes opponents of this bill look like people that shove bombs up their ass and kill innocent women and children? Really? the line is blurred? You are truly twisted.
Message edited by author 2010-03-26 14:08:52. |
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03/26/2010 02:09:30 PM · #291 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
The violence and threats are inexcusable and should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. However, does this come to a shock to anyone? Pass the largest most sweeping and consequential bill in a lifetime without even full support of the party that has massive majorities? A bill people overwhelmingly oppose? |
Well, the party is in the minority...if I'm correct and they got voted out for crappy performance over the last 10 years including 6 years when they controlled The Executive and Congress. 6 years where Healthcare wasn't even on their radar...but now they'll offering up ideas based on the same failed policies that got us into this mess to begin with. Yeah...lowering taxes and more dereguglation has done us wonders, so far.
Also people approved of the bill based on many poles including Gallups and were disapproving of the fictitious Bill being spoke about by the opposing right...the one with Death Panels and all that crap. I dissappoved of that Bill too BUT fortunately it didn't actually exist. Phew...
Originally posted by LoudDog:
As for the terrorism comments, that is just sickening that you would stoop so low. Compare the majority of the citizens in the US to terrorist because a few yahoos acted stupidly? |
WOW that's incredible...I never knew that I compared a majority of anything to terrorists. How did I get to a majority in my statement, I can't figure out. Read it again...
PS: You should work for FOX...you're good at this.
Message edited by author 2010-03-26 14:18:11. |
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03/26/2010 02:20:04 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by yanko:
The sad irony is the republicans who are so gung-ho about torturing and killing every last terrorist are slowly blurring the line between them and those terrorists. |
Yes they are in fact, becoming the terrorists and their cajoling is pretty much the same as any garden variety terrorist... only a little more slippery and indirect but will yield the same results. It's only a matter of time but if someone does something unconscionable and leaves a manifesto thanking Glen Beck, Palin, Hannity or FOX for their words of guidance, they will just pass the guy off as some nut that took what he said incorrectly...and never cop responsibility for a thing. |
I was more reffering to Yanko's post, but you clearly agreed that people opposed to the bill (the majority) are blurring the line between them and terrorist.
You should work for AirAmerica! Oh wait, they died because no one wanted to listen to them... |
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03/26/2010 02:24:41 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
What a crock. A few lunatics...that exist in every fringe of every society...start to act up and it becomes "republicans" and Beck and Limbaugh. Yes, we're pissed off, but the overwhelming majority of us are civilised and will take up our fight at the ballot box. Violence can be dealt with by the LAW...if anyone really cares to enforce law any more. A few idiots do not invalidate our argument, nor paint us all as gun-toting yay-hoos, any more than a few of YOUR idiots makes you all far-left commie puppets. |
This warrants a repeat post. "but the overwhelming majority of us are civilised and will take up our fight at the ballot box" |
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03/26/2010 02:25:50 PM · #294 |
Okay, after re-reading a few times I think I get what you are saying. Just the republicans are "blurring the line" between themselves and terrorist. I guess the dems that oppose it are not? I didn't know they confirmed political positions on the idiots acting out already.
Still sick, comparing a large percentage of the population to people that shove bombs up their ass. See that, I took out the word majority. I still think it's twisted.
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03/26/2010 02:32:26 PM · #295 |
1* Will the health care plan passed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama be good for the country or bad for the country?
41% Good
49% Bad
3% No impact
7% Not sure
2* A proposal has been made to repeal the health care bill and stop it from going into effect. Do you strongly favor, somewhat favor, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose a proposal to repeal the health care bill?
46% Strongly favor
9% Somewhat favor
7% Somewhat oppose
35% Strongly oppose
4% Not sure
3* In this Novemberâs congressional election, suppose you have a choice between one candidate who wants to repeal the health care plan and another candidate who opposes repeal. Which candidate would you support â the one who wants to repeal the plan or the one who opposes repeal?
52% One who wants to repeal the plan
41% One who opposes repeal
7% Not sure
4* Is the health care reform legislation passed by Congress and signed into law by President Obama likely to increase the deficit, reduce the deficit or have no impact on the deficit?
60% Increase
19% Reduce
12% No impact
9% Not sure
5* Regardless of the impact on the nation at large, what type of impact will the health care plan have on you personally. Will the health care plan be good for you personally, bad for you personally, or will it have no impact on you personally?
26% Good
43% Bad
25% No impact
6% Not sure
//www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/toplines/pt_survey_toplines/march_2010/toplines_health_care_repeal_march_23_24_2010 |
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03/26/2010 02:35:31 PM · #296 |
This is a meaningless poll; so much disinformation has been put out there by the entrenched interests that the populace, as a whole, doesn't have a clue what's really going on.
R. |
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03/26/2010 02:45:52 PM · #297 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
This is a meaningless poll; so much disinformation has been put out there by the entrenched interests that the populace, as a whole, doesn't have a clue what's really going on.
R. |
I suspect that between now and November both more truth and more disinformation will hit the media outlets. Loosely translating into both more and less correct information motivating voters.
I think there is a block of voters that are angry at the process, and plan to ensure their voice is heard in November. Having a President say "Bring it on" kinda stokes the passion - doesn't it. |
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03/26/2010 02:59:09 PM · #298 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
This is a meaningless poll; so much disinformation has been put out there by the entrenched interests that the populace, as a whole, doesn't have a clue what's really going on.
R. |
Yes...worthless because it's based on what some people "believe" and their beliefs aren't necessarily related to any facts. Many people don't have a clue what's real anymore because they've been pelted with so many lies and exaggerations.
To be fair and balanced I watch FOX on occasion and was stunned by how many segments they dedicated to "what people think is in the bill" and "how they believe the bill will affect them" or whether "they thought they bill was a good thing"...
Again, I got so tired of hearing John Boehner claiming how many American were against the Bill but never clarified what Bill he was referring to... the one they passed, the one they started with...or the one they kept incorrectly portraying to the American public...which sounded so, so, so terrible.
I hated that Bill myself.
BTW, what's with all the baloney righteous indignation with my comments. I'm just speaking on what's coming out of peoples mouth's...spit, racial slurs, outrageous claims. I mean, it's all there in plain daylight and some of it comes straight from the likes of Sarah Palin...the new voice of the party. These nuts quote her all the time. Polls showed how many people believed Obama was a terrorist after Palins constant ply where if you recall MacCain had to... (read here of you forgot)back off from the claims and people still didn't want to buy it.
Originally posted by Flash:
Having a President say "Bring it on" kinda stokes the passion - doesn't it. |
Were you refering to George Bush's "Bring it on" or...
Message edited by author 2010-03-26 15:09:51. |
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03/26/2010 03:01:21 PM · #299 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
This is a meaningless poll; so much disinformation has been put out there by the entrenched interests that the populace, as a whole, doesn't have a clue what's really going on.
R. |
So numerous posts back I listed several things people are angry about and asked which are misinformation. what is the internet forum board equivalent to crickets?
I also posted that I've talked to several people that think they are getting free healthcare! So actually, I agree with you, this poll is useless.
to think either the for or against camp is 100% honest is insanity. The president has said premiums will go down and this will reduce the deficit. Does anyone believe that? |
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03/26/2010 03:06:11 PM · #300 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
So actually, I agree with you, this poll is useless. |
That's good to hear. So, tell me: why did you post a link to a poll you think is useless?
R. |
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