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08/19/2009 07:19:33 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by K10DGuy:
1. Well, as many other threads over the last little while have confirmed, an experiment to get people to try and leave comments on lower votes failed miserably, so yes, it has been tried. Also, it's just part of the human condition. You force people to do something, they will either do it poorly, or they will rebel. |
No, it has never been made mandatory for people to leave comments for low scores. Yes, a pop-up window SUGGESTING that it would be courteous to leave a comment was implemented for a short time, but there is a very profound difference between the two solutions. The fact that DPC has tried something once before tells me that this has been a reoccurring theme. While it's great that they tried to fix the problem, it seems crazy to me that they just gave up after one idea failed and allowed the problem to persist. "Welp, that didn't work...oh well, we tried."
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
2. 99.99999999% of the time, I don't like something for completely subjective reasons. That 0.000000001% of objectivity? I'll leave a comment. My telling you that I don't like water drops on flowers isn't going to make you a better photographer when you win a ribbon because you put water drops on a flower. |
Not if they ribboned, no, but last time I checked, only 3 people end up on the front page...that leaves a ton of other people that MIGHT benefit from your opinion, however subjective it may be. Simply put, if YOU feel that way, then maybe other people who didn't comment feel that way too. This is what I was trying to convey with my "painting a picture" comment. One subjective comment by itself doesn't mean much, but 10-40 together could potentially give the photographer some direction. If nothing else, it gives them a REASON (whether or not they agree) as to why it failed.
- Alex |
And IF I feel like giving a comment, I will. I simply will not be forced to do so. I can guarantee that, and many others will as well. It is simply not a viable solution. |
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08/19/2009 07:21:50 PM · #52 |
The problem lies in the fact that we think people should be fair. We vote fairly and expect others to, as well.
how many of you think that this photo deserves a 1?
In our minds, 1 is as bad as you can get. If this is a 1, what could you possibly vote an out of focus, badly composed photo to have it seem fair?
So we need to face it--some people are not fair. Some people are unhappy, nasty people that get their kicks by giving 1s. They might justify it in their own minds, but we'll never understand it--even if they were forced to leave a comment.
give it up, people. I console myself in thinking that they're trolling the majority of people, so everyone's in the same boat. |
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08/19/2009 07:22:09 PM · #53 |
Vote a one on an image, step two comment that you do not like the image, step three get nasty gram from owner of image, step four start war, burn villages...... Anyone who thinks the forced comments will be of any quality is likely to be disappointed. |
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08/19/2009 07:30:39 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by vawendy: The problem lies in the fact that we think people should be fair. We vote fairly and expect others to, as well.
how many of you think that this photo deserves a 1?
In our minds, 1 is as bad as you can get. If this is a 1, what could you possibly vote an out of focus, badly composed photo to have it seem fair?
So we need to face it--some people are not fair. Some people are unhappy, nasty people that get their kicks by giving 1s. They might justify it in their own minds, but we'll never understand it--even if they were forced to leave a comment.
give it up, people. I console myself in thinking that they're trolling the majority of people, so everyone's in the same boat. |
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
Are there bitter, sad, unhappy, nasty people out there? OH hell yes, but there are also overly happy, manic, lovey dovey, everything is OMG WONDERFUL people out there too, and they skew voting just as much as the other element. It takes us all, to give us the results we get, and I wouldn't change it for the world. Sure, it makes us happier to get higher scores, but if you really think about it, an unrealistic high score is doing nobody any favors either. |
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08/19/2009 07:35:56 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
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Right, this totally deserves a 1 because someone doesn't like Ed Hardy or rainboots. GMAFB :rolleyes
- Alex
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08/19/2009 07:40:36 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
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Right, this totally deserves a 1 because someone doesn't like Ed Hardy or rainboots. GMAFB :rolleyes
- Alex |
And it deserves fifteen 10s? Really? It's a perfect photograph? (To use Vawendy's scale of 'couldn't be worse' and 'couldn't be better')
What it comes down to is personal preference and subjectivity, and no photo deserves ANYTHING but what it gets. Maybe that 1 voter is simply done with water being splashed around? Who knows. It's a vote, and it has its place. But don't, DON'T, try and use the argument that a photo doesn't DESERVE a score on one end without even acknowledging that the other end of the scale is skewed too. |
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08/19/2009 07:42:58 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
And it deserves fifteen 10s? Really? It's a perfect photograph? (To use Vawendy's scale of 'couldn't be worse' and 'couldn't be better')
What it comes down to is personal preference and subjectivity, and no photo deserves ANYTHING but what it gets. Maybe that 1 voter is simply done with water being splashed around? Who knows. It's a vote, and it has its place. But don't, DON'T, try and use the argument that a photo doesn't DESERVE a score on one end without even acknowledging that the other end of the scale is skewed too. |
Touche.
- Alex
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 19:43:34.
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08/19/2009 08:12:37 PM · #58 |
Since it is pretty clear (Via this thread and the numerous similar ones that have preceded it) that the extreme low voters are not going to change their behavior, may I make a suggestion?
Learn to interpret your scores and comments. Quite frequently you can totally nail what you were after and have a successful entry that scores low. This happens because you appealed to a narrow target audience that enjoys and appreciates your approach to the challenge.
Some things to read besides the average vote are:
-What is the commenter's average vote? If it is close to the overall average, or fairly low, then there may be a major issue with your entry. If your overall score is say, a 5.3, but the commenter's average is 7.5, that is a good sign you nailed what you were after.
-What are the comments saying? Were they glowingly positive? Were they "Nice shot" comments? Did you get some critiques? If so, were they critical of the entry itself, or just it's suitability to the challenge theme? Did several of the critiques say similar things? Do you agree with what they critiqued?
-What does the overall score breakdown look like? Bunched up in the 4's and 5's? Or is it leaning towards the higher side? Was there a huge spike in any one area, or were the votes more spread out? Were there spikes in several vote ranges? If, for instance, you got nearly as many 4's as 7's, that can indicate narrow appeal. Nothing wrong with narrow appeal, you just need to learn to know when you are entering such a photo.
-Did you get any faves? A mid-packish score with several faves is a clear sign you did something right and it spoke to a few people.
Put some of these characteristics together, analyze them, and you can obtain a better idea of how your shot went over, and why it did. You'll know when your entry was a success in spite of the effect that the averaging of opinions produces.
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08/19/2009 08:39:51 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
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Right, this totally deserves a 1 because someone doesn't like Ed Hardy or rainboots. GMAFB :rolleyes
- Alex |
And it deserves fifteen 10s? Really? It's a perfect photograph? (To use Vawendy's scale of 'couldn't be worse' and 'couldn't be better')
What it comes down to is personal preference and subjectivity, and no photo deserves ANYTHING but what it gets. Maybe that 1 voter is simply done with water being splashed around? Who knows. It's a vote, and it has its place. But don't, DON'T, try and use the argument that a photo doesn't DESERVE a score on one end without even acknowledging that the other end of the scale is skewed too. |
The problem is that the other end isn't as skewed in well done images.
If a photo really is an average photo 5 or 5.5 for example, a 1 and a 10 are evenly skewed.
HOWEVER, if a photo is an excellent photo, something that averages in the 7s or 8s, a vote of 1 is much more skewed than a vote of 10. It's these discrepancies that are more irritating. When my photos are in the 5s, votes of 1 aren't as surprising. When I'm in the 6s, they're more irritating. |
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08/19/2009 08:51:29 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by vawendy: Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
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Right, this totally deserves a 1 because someone doesn't like Ed Hardy or rainboots. GMAFB :rolleyes
- Alex |
And it deserves fifteen 10s? Really? It's a perfect photograph? (To use Vawendy's scale of 'couldn't be worse' and 'couldn't be better')
What it comes down to is personal preference and subjectivity, and no photo deserves ANYTHING but what it gets. Maybe that 1 voter is simply done with water being splashed around? Who knows. It's a vote, and it has its place. But don't, DON'T, try and use the argument that a photo doesn't DESERVE a score on one end without even acknowledging that the other end of the scale is skewed too. |
The problem is that the other end isn't as skewed in well done images.
If a photo really is an average photo 5 or 5.5 for example, a 1 and a 10 are evenly skewed.
HOWEVER, if a photo is an excellent photo, something that averages in the 7s or 8s, a vote of 1 is much more skewed than a vote of 10. It's these discrepancies that are more irritating. When my photos are in the 5s, votes of 1 aren't as surprising. When I'm in the 6s, they're more irritating. |
Yes, life can be irritating, but what's that song? You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both, and there you have the facts of life.
Quite frankly, there's a bit of a 'sense of entitlement' mentality on this site that I wish would start declining. It really keeps me from participating more. |
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08/19/2009 09:05:40 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by vawendy: Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
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Right, this totally deserves a 1 because someone doesn't like Ed Hardy or rainboots. GMAFB :rolleyes
- Alex |
And it deserves fifteen 10s? Really? It's a perfect photograph? (To use Vawendy's scale of 'couldn't be worse' and 'couldn't be better')
What it comes down to is personal preference and subjectivity, and no photo deserves ANYTHING but what it gets. Maybe that 1 voter is simply done with water being splashed around? Who knows. It's a vote, and it has its place. But don't, DON'T, try and use the argument that a photo doesn't DESERVE a score on one end without even acknowledging that the other end of the scale is skewed too. |
The problem is that the other end isn't as skewed in well done images.
If a photo really is an average photo 5 or 5.5 for example, a 1 and a 10 are evenly skewed.
HOWEVER, if a photo is an excellent photo, something that averages in the 7s or 8s, a vote of 1 is much more skewed than a vote of 10. It's these discrepancies that are more irritating. When my photos are in the 5s, votes of 1 aren't as surprising. When I'm in the 6s, they're more irritating. |
Yes, life can be irritating, but what's that song? You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both, and there you have the facts of life.
Quite frankly, there's a bit of a 'sense of entitlement' mentality on this site that I wish would start declining. It really keeps me from participating more. |
Oh that's a shame. I honestly think the people who are posting in this thread aren't feeling entitled to a better score. I think they just want to understand. They aren't saying "change the score", I want to know why. I think that's a fair thing to wonder.
they're not going to get it, but it's fair to wonder! |
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08/19/2009 09:14:06 PM · #62 |
My feeling..
Top score in any challenge gets a virtual blue ribbon..
Bottom score gets the imagined brown ribbon..
Take either to the local convenience store the next day, add $1.50 and you get a cup of coffee, and surprise they both taste the same..
But thats just me.. |
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08/19/2009 09:30:25 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by RobMcGee: ...oh and if you don't have an opinion, don't just click 4 or 5. Better leave it without a vote. |
Funny you should say that. Sometimes I wonder why the photographer entered the challenge when I'm reaching for that 4 or 5 key.
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 21:34:13.
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08/19/2009 09:37:31 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by vawendy: Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by vawendy: Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
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Right, this totally deserves a 1 because someone doesn't like Ed Hardy or rainboots. GMAFB :rolleyes
- Alex |
And it deserves fifteen 10s? Really? It's a perfect photograph? (To use Vawendy's scale of 'couldn't be worse' and 'couldn't be better')
What it comes down to is personal preference and subjectivity, and no photo deserves ANYTHING but what it gets. Maybe that 1 voter is simply done with water being splashed around? Who knows. It's a vote, and it has its place. But don't, DON'T, try and use the argument that a photo doesn't DESERVE a score on one end without even acknowledging that the other end of the scale is skewed too. |
The problem is that the other end isn't as skewed in well done images.
If a photo really is an average photo 5 or 5.5 for example, a 1 and a 10 are evenly skewed.
HOWEVER, if a photo is an excellent photo, something that averages in the 7s or 8s, a vote of 1 is much more skewed than a vote of 10. It's these discrepancies that are more irritating. When my photos are in the 5s, votes of 1 aren't as surprising. When I'm in the 6s, they're more irritating. |
Yes, life can be irritating, but what's that song? You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both, and there you have the facts of life.
Quite frankly, there's a bit of a 'sense of entitlement' mentality on this site that I wish would start declining. It really keeps me from participating more. |
Oh that's a shame. I honestly think the people who are posting in this thread aren't feeling entitled to a better score. I think they just want to understand. They aren't saying "change the score", I want to know why. I think that's a fair thing to wonder.
they're not going to get it, but it's fair to wonder! |
Yes, it's fair to wonder. However, an inspired comment is 100% of the time going to be better than a forced one. |
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08/19/2009 09:41:50 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by yanko: Originally posted by RobMcGee: ...oh and if you don't have an opinion, don't just click 4 or 5. Better leave it without a vote. |
Funny you should say that. Sometimes I wonder why the photographer entered the challenge when I'm reaching for that 4 or 5 key. |
Maybe it's because they honestly don't know any better (at least some of the time; I did have that feeling twice while voting in the Appliances contest, but I wasn't as kind as you)...hence my belief that people should be forced to comment if they give out a 3 or below. Odds are, the same reason that someone gave them a 3, 2, or 1 is the same reason that someone else gave a 4 or 5.
- Alex
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08/19/2009 09:42:07 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti: Originally posted by vawendy: Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by vawendy: Originally posted by K10DGuy: Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Pretentious.
Some people don't vote solely on technicals, and some don't vote on technicals at all. A person giving, say, puppies a 1 because they despise dogs is no more or less sad than someone giving a shot of lightning a 10 because they love lightning.
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Right, this totally deserves a 1 because someone doesn't like Ed Hardy or rainboots. GMAFB :rolleyes
- Alex |
And it deserves fifteen 10s? Really? It's a perfect photograph? (To use Vawendy's scale of 'couldn't be worse' and 'couldn't be better')
What it comes down to is personal preference and subjectivity, and no photo deserves ANYTHING but what it gets. Maybe that 1 voter is simply done with water being splashed around? Who knows. It's a vote, and it has its place. But don't, DON'T, try and use the argument that a photo doesn't DESERVE a score on one end without even acknowledging that the other end of the scale is skewed too. |
The problem is that the other end isn't as skewed in well done images.
If a photo really is an average photo 5 or 5.5 for example, a 1 and a 10 are evenly skewed.
HOWEVER, if a photo is an excellent photo, something that averages in the 7s or 8s, a vote of 1 is much more skewed than a vote of 10. It's these discrepancies that are more irritating. When my photos are in the 5s, votes of 1 aren't as surprising. When I'm in the 6s, they're more irritating. |
Yes, life can be irritating, but what's that song? You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both, and there you have the facts of life.
Quite frankly, there's a bit of a 'sense of entitlement' mentality on this site that I wish would start declining. It really keeps me from participating more. |
Oh that's a shame. I honestly think the people who are posting in this thread aren't feeling entitled to a better score. I think they just want to understand. They aren't saying "change the score", I want to know why. I think that's a fair thing to wonder.
they're not going to get it, but it's fair to wonder! |
Yes, it's fair to wonder. However, an inspired comment is 100% of the time going to be better than a forced one. |
oh, I agree completely. I've come to that conclusion about the 7th time I saw this type of thread. I'm just defending people's right to try to fix the world. Unfortunately, some things can't be fixed.
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08/19/2009 09:44:15 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Yes, it's fair to wonder. However, an inspired comment is 100% of the time going to be better than a forced one. |
Agreed, but a forced comment is 100% of the time better than no comment at all, especially when the the only other comments are positive and don't explain a poor score.
- Alex
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08/19/2009 09:45:35 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Yes, it's fair to wonder. However, an inspired comment is 100% of the time going to be better than a forced one. |
Agreed, but a forced comment is 100% of the time better than no comment at all, especially when the the only other comments are positive and don't explain a poor score.
- Alex |
Really? Does 'a' tell you anything? You're assuming that the forced comment will be something other than gobledygook.
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 21:46:17. |
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08/19/2009 09:48:11 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by alans_world: My feeling..
Top score in any challenge gets a virtual blue ribbon..
Bottom score gets the imagined brown ribbon..
Take either to the local convenience store the next day, add $1.50 and you get a cup of coffee, and surprise they both taste the same..
But thats just me.. |
This may come as a shock to you, but it's not about the ribbon, or even the score. It's about gaining a better understanding about one's photography and how it is received by others.
- Alex
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08/19/2009 09:51:29 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Really? Does 'a' tell you anything? You're assuming that the forced comment will be something other than gobledygook. |
I guess it's the military member in me assuming that the "Bravo-Foxtrots" would quickly be ousted for not playing nicely with others.
- Alex
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08/19/2009 09:53:03 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Alex_Europa: Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Really? Does 'a' tell you anything? You're assuming that the forced comment will be something other than gobledygook. |
I guess it's the military member in me assuming that the "Bravo-Foxtrots" would quickly be ousted for not playing nicely with others.
- Alex |
So you're suggesting monitors now for the comments? and some sort of algorithm to determine if a comment is a good one or not? Why should anyone be forced to write something about an image that doesn't inspire them to do so? This is art? Do you honestly have something to say about every thing you dislike or do you feel that sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut?
Message edited by author 2009-08-19 21:55:02. |
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08/19/2009 09:53:43 PM · #72 |
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08/19/2009 09:55:23 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by doctornick: |
I smell horse meat. |
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08/19/2009 10:02:14 PM · #74 |
I was a member of another site where people often rated/commented on your photos. I would post a photo, and within half an hour I would get 30 comments saying R10, or great shot, look at my shots too. I got sick of the constant self promotion on that site, and the disingenuous comments. They did nothing for me... I would post what I now think is a very average, or below average image, and it would rate high, only because the raters wanted a rating in return... which would boost their images as well.
What I am getting at, is that forcing low voters to comment will result in a similar disingenuous comment. They will quickly say "nice shot", vote it a 1, and move on with their voting. They will not tell me that they voted it low for fear of being flamed in forums, or replies, or whatever. So, they will lie, and say, 'nice shot'.
Ideally, it would be great to find out why someone votes low.... But, the fact is, many votes of 1 are meant to sabbotage a score... nobody is going to comment 'I wanted to place higher, so I figured I would drop a 1 on your image'. Others that vote low because they dont like an image, might not want to be very honest about it, and will simple say "nice shot", "interesting shot"... |
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08/19/2009 10:03:55 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
So you're suggesting monitors now for the comments? and some sort of algorithm to determine if a comment is a good one or not? Why should anyone be forced to write something about an image that doesn't inspire them to do so? This is art? Do you honestly have something to say about every thing you dislike or do you feel that sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut? |
If I dislike it, then yes, I can think of SOMETHING to say about it. Are you saying that you can't? Sure, there will be the occasional photo that you dislike enough to give a 3, 2, or 1 yet can't quite put your finger as to the reason for the negative feeling, and that's fine...but those other 99 comments probably helped people out.
And no, not monitors. There is a "Report Post" button at the top of every comment...I merely suggest that it gets a bit of use when some leaves "asdf" to get around the proposed rule.
- Alex
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