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11/17/2008 07:24:33 AM · #1 |
Hi please forgive me for asking a basic question. However I have done a quick search on the forums and am still lost as to which way to vote. I have used the current heart challenge as an example. However, these titles/pics are made up so do not relate to any actual entries.
Lets first assume that for all other reasons I would rate the following images as a 10. What score should I give in reality? Is there an accepted reduction for DNMC or shoehorn entries?
DNMC example. Title - "Big Heart" - Amazing image of smiling boy standing in corn fields playing with a kite
Shoehorn example. Title "Broken Heart" - Amazing image of boy standing in cornfields looking unhappy.
Whatever the score, i understand that it is good form to comment.
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11/17/2008 07:33:58 AM · #2 |
If it doesn't meet the challenge I score a photo low - no higher than a 3, usually. It doesn't matter how amazing the shot is if it doesn't meet the criteria. I'm not afraid to give out 1s when they're needed.
I think of challenges as if they were assignments for a client; the client isn't going to care how amazing your shot is if it doesn't meet his needs, and he's no going to pay you for it. Save your amazing photo of whatever for the monthly Free Study and either enter something that meets a challenge, or don't enter at all.
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11/17/2008 07:44:21 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by kingskingdom:
Hi please forgive me for asking a basic question. However I have done a quick search on the forums and am still lost as to which way to vote. I have used the current heart challenge as an example. However, these titles/pics are made up so do not relate to any actual entries.
Lets first assume that for all other reasons I would rate the following images as a 10. What score should I give in reality? Is there an accepted reduction for DNMC or shoehorn entries?
.
Whatever the score, i understand that it is good form to comment. |
Be careful, you're not allowed to identify specific images while in the voting stages ... you should remove the references to those images from your post |
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11/17/2008 07:45:05 AM · #4 |
It largely comes down to personal preference :-) My personal preference is:
Before marking an entry is DNMC, take time and try really hard to see if the shot is a creative interpretation of the challenge in some way.
For a clear DNMC (e.g. picture of a blue ball in the "Red" challenge) - score between 1 and 3 depending on how good the shot is otherwise. My view is that the challenge subject must count for a lot, otherwise we may as well consider everything a free study.
A "shoehorn" is (for me) a shot that bears little relevance to the challenge and has a title that tries to link the shot to the challenge. Depending on how big the shoehorn is I score somewhere between normal and clear DNMC.
It's all subjective - you must find your own system that you are happy with and go with it. Comments are always good as it helps the photographer at least understand why you are marking as you do, even if they don't agree :-) |
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11/17/2008 07:50:20 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by pamelasue:
Originally posted by kingskingdom:
Hi please forgive me for asking a basic question. However I have done a quick search on the forums and am still lost as to which way to vote. I have used the current heart challenge as an example. However, these titles/pics are made up so do not relate to any actual entries.
Lets first assume that for all other reasons I would rate the following images as a 10. What score should I give in reality? Is there an accepted reduction for DNMC or shoehorn entries?
.
Whatever the score, i understand that it is good form to comment. |
Be careful, you're not allowed to identify specific images while in the voting stages ... you should remove the references to those images from your post |
I don't believe he is using actual pics from the challenge. See bold...... |
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11/17/2008 07:54:37 AM · #6 |
I can assure you, these were completely made up examples. I even check the challenge images first, just in case I accidentally stumbled on real ones.
I am just giving examples to try to understand the average points reduction i should give for each. Thanks for the advice so far
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11/17/2008 08:04:21 AM · #7 |
Does the photo of the boy with the kite give you a warm feeling? Do you feel his joy? Same with the other boy, Do you feel his pain?
I believe in a need for little latitude on challenges. Don̢۪t try to find what̢۪s wrong with the image, look for what is right. The big prize is nothing more than a few 1s and 0s.
In cases such as this (the heart challenge), if limited to a black and white definition, you might find yourself wading threw 200 photos of classic valentine hearts , how boring.
Message edited by author 2008-11-17 08:05:47.
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11/17/2008 08:07:43 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
Originally posted by kingskingdom:
Hi please forgive me for asking a basic question. However I have done a quick search on the forums and am still lost as to which way to vote. I have used the current heart challenge as an example. However, these titles/pics are made up so do not relate to any actual entries.
Lets first assume that for all other reasons I would rate the following images as a 10. What score should I give in reality? Is there an accepted reduction for DNMC or shoehorn entries?
.
Whatever the score, i understand that it is good form to comment. |
Be careful, you're not allowed to identify specific images while in the voting stages ... you should remove the references to those images from your post |
I don't believe he is using actual pics from the challenge. See bold...... |
I guess I should learn to read the entire post, eh?! |
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11/17/2008 08:11:20 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by kingskingdom:
Hi please forgive me for asking a basic question. However I have done a quick search on the forums and am still lost as to which way to vote. I have used the current heart challenge as an example. However, these titles/pics are made up so do not relate to any actual entries.
Lets first assume that for all other reasons I would rate the following images as a 10. What score should I give in reality? Is there an accepted reduction for DNMC or shoehorn entries?
DNMC example. Title - "Big Heart" - Amazing image of smiling boy standing in corn fields playing with a kite
Shoehorn example. Title "Broken Heart" - Amazing image of boy standing in cornfields looking unhappy.
Whatever the score, i understand that it is good form to comment. |
DNMC -- a one. Only because we cannot give proper 0 scores for these. First test should always be that a photo met the basic theme of the challenge. Some challenges are very clear, while others are open to many interpretations. So if it's clear, then it can clearly be a DNMC and therefore should not even be considered for a top score, thus it rightly deserves the lowest score possible -- in spite of any technical merit the photo has.
Shoehorn is tricky. In the example above of "Broken Heart", it's not a shoehorn as the description does say it has to be a photo of a heart -- when in fact most of the photos we have don't look like hearts, but more like valentines. So, for you example, a shoehorn meets the challenge and therefore has earned the right to be assessed on its merits. |
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11/17/2008 08:25:21 AM · #10 |
| I score a range of 1 to 3 for DNMC entries. |
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11/17/2008 08:33:57 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by MilesW:
e.g. picture of a blue ball in the "Red" challenge |
That would be quite funny actually :) |
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11/17/2008 08:39:46 AM · #12 |
How about an orange truck in the "Yellow" challenge? :)
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11/17/2008 08:44:51 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
... I think of challenges as if they were assignments for a client; the client isn't going to care how amazing your shot is if it doesn't meet his needs, and he's no going to pay you for it. Save your amazing photo of whatever for the monthly Free Study and either enter something that meets a challenge, or don't enter at all. |
Others vote differently. To me,the challenge topics are very broad and rarely specified with exact criteria. They feel like an invitation to participate in a community creative process much more than an assignment to get a particular shot of a particular person at a particular event to be placed in a specific layout in a predetermined orientation (to exaggerate an "assignement" process). If I hire a photographer with the intent of inviting creativity, I'll entertain creative approaches rather than dismiss them outright.
I try to look at each photo first as though entered in a free study, and come to a rough score based on composition, technical apsects, emotional impact, artistic merit, creativity, and so forth. Then I consider the challenge definition (full wording, not just the title). If the image meets the challenge in a boring or average way, I may not change the score at all. If the image meets the challenge in an unexpected and delightfully creative way, I might boost the score a point or two, depending on my mood. If the image doesn't seem to meet the challenge, I might lower it a point after thinking hard about what I might be missing. If the image obviously and completely misses the challenge definition, I might reduce the score a couple of points, and maybe leave a comment asking if the entry was intended for a different challenge. Actually, the end result is only a little different from the end result of OdessyF22, at least for the majority of images [five drops to three, four drops to two], but is less harsh on the better ones [seven drops to five, etc.]. It just gives me more room to not be excessively harsh just becuase I don't see the intended connection. Of course, I may be inconsistent from time to time.
For newer members who might see this thread, it is worth mentioning that the voting rules ( rules) allow a wide variety of approaches. The only guidance is:
"You should
*Keep an open mind to other interpretations of the challenge topic, and
*Consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly", and
"You may not
*give an entry a lower score because you believe it violates the Challenge Rules, or
*recommend an entry for disqualification for not meeting the challenge."
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11/17/2008 08:46:51 AM · #14 |
There is often a fine line between a dnmc and a creative interpretation. Sometime a shot will totally meet the challenge, but a voter misunderstands it. For instance, in the "warm colors" challenge, many voters low voted good entries because they thought the challenge theme meant "convey warmth". Many entrants took it as simply to use primarily warm colors in your entry.
Other times an entry is absolutely shoehorned with a creative title and it really does not fit.
My approach is to rate it as normal, then subtract some points if I feel it really failed to meet the challenge. usually I knock off 1-3 points depending on how far off it was. I low voted some entries in the recent mirrors challenge, for shoehorning reflections on water. I didn't feel a reflection on water was a mirror, but after reading some dictionary definitions, I bumped up some scores as a creative interpretation. After rollover, it turned out one of those "water reflections" really WAS a mirror and it got the yellow ribbon. |
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11/17/2008 09:00:43 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
... For instance, in the "warm colors" challenge, many voters low voted good entries because they thought the challenge theme meant "convey warmth". ... |
No friggin way! C'mon - for real?! How do you know "many voters low voted..." based on the premise of to "convey warmth"?
Warm Colors - Challenge Description: "Create a photograph that is comprised of primarily warm colors."
edit to clarify a thought.
Message edited by author 2008-11-17 09:36:59. |
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11/17/2008 09:34:27 AM · #16 |
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11/17/2008 09:59:59 AM · #17 |
| In case you haven't figured it out yet from the responses, there is no standard way to vote for a DNMC. In fact, there is no standard way to vote, period, beyond the fact that higher numbers are better than lower numbers. I have a tutorial about voting, but it's hardly definitive. In fact, my personal scores never correspond to overall scores. |
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11/17/2008 10:16:04 AM · #18 |
| What's wrong with assuming every shot meets the challenge, somehow? Otherwise why else would the photog have entered it? |
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11/17/2008 10:25:09 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
What's wrong with assuming every shot meets the challenge, somehow? Otherwise why else would the photog have entered it? |
Then every challenge would basically be a free study. If you had a client that wanted a shot of a red rose and you gave him a wonderful shot of a yellow car, he would not be happy, even if in your mind you had given him what you thought he wanted. |
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11/17/2008 10:28:21 AM · #20 |
In my own little personal scoring system, meeting the challenge is worth 3 points. So, I guess I am too easy as the most fantastic photo of all time could get a 7 from me, even if it didn't meet the challenge.
About the only time I give a 1, is if it is a really bad photo, and it does not meet the challenge.
That's just me, and my own little system.
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11/17/2008 10:30:25 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
What's wrong with assuming every shot meets the challenge, somehow? Otherwise why else would the photog have entered it? |
It is wrong because it is unfair to rate following pictures the same:
- A clever interpretation of the challenge (the photographer put a lot of effort into it)
- A picture which the photographer would have taken also without the challenge (and then shoehorned)
If this 2 pictures would be rated the same, then we would soon have only Free Studies. |
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11/17/2008 10:38:02 AM · #22 |
Thank you, Miles, you saved me some typing. I totally agree with your philosophy:
Originally posted by MilesW:
Before marking an entry is DNMC, take time and try really hard to see if the shot is a creative interpretation of the challenge in some way.
For a clear DNMC (e.g. picture of a blue ball in the "Red" challenge) - score between 1 and 3 depending on how good the shot is otherwise. My view is that the challenge subject must count for a lot, otherwise we may as well consider everything a free study.
A "shoehorn" is (for me) a shot that bears little relevance to the challenge and has a title that tries to link the shot to the challenge. Depending on how big the shoehorn is I score somewhere between normal and clear DNMC.
It's all subjective - you must find your own system that you are happy with and go with it. Comments are always good as it helps the photographer at least understand why you are marking as you do, even if they don't agree :-) |
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11/17/2008 11:41:16 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Shoehorn is tricky. In the example above of "Broken Heart", it's not a shoehorn as the description does say it has to be a photo of a heart -- when in fact most of the photos we have don't look like hearts, but more like valentines. So, for you example, a shoehorn meets the challenge and therefore has earned the right to be assessed on its merits. |
Where does it say that? In fact, there's no description provided at all. I presume you're DNMCing any image without a physical heart in it.
/shakes head |
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11/17/2008 11:47:06 AM · #24 |
On (Challenge) Topicality
Limiting potentially immeasurable choices to a defined subject or a chosen category of photography, really, should stimulate creativity, not hamper it. Topics, IMO, are or should be there for the benefit of the photographer, not for the untaxed glee of some voters swinging a bat.
I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture.
I have seen and continue to see perfectly good photographs here penalized for exceeding the appreciative capacity of voters to recognize an entry for the poignant topicality it may demonstrate. If I consider the photo remarkable (artistically very interesting), I may just decide to award the highest mark possible in the faint hope to compensate for a predictably overall devaluation.
Too much consideration, IMO, is given to voters and commenters to rate entries by topicality, and this stance is stressed in the rules. While I am all for challenges in the general spirit we conduct them, I feel that by encouraging voters to sit in judgment of matters they cannot, reasonably, be expected to fathom and, thus, appreciate, we encourage conflict and tedious discussion largely external to photography and art.
The energy wasted and lost here, IMO, could better be invested, if it were understood that an emphasis on topicality existed for the creative benefit of the entrants and not for the righteous glee of the uninitiated. |
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11/17/2008 11:57:10 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
On (Challenge) Topicality
I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture. |
But if you don't see the connection to the challenge topic, the photographer has failed to communicate to you. Again, think of yourself as a client wanting a photo of X. When the photographer presents you with a photo of Y, would you say to yourself, "well, maybe that is an X"? |
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