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11/20/2008 11:22:12 AM · #1201 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
On liberal and conservative morality
(NB I haven't actually had a chance to listen to this, but most TED talks have been interesting in the past) |
I linked that talk in another Rant thread (forget which one). It is REALLY good. Highly recommended for everybody as the speaker takes a nice even hand at things and is thoughtful in his deductions. In fact, I may go listen to it again... |
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11/20/2008 11:23:01 AM · #1202 |
Originally posted by yanko:
That's now two cats Jason is trying to put back in the bag. The other one being the issue of sex and violence on tv. What Doc needs is a time machine for Christmas. :P |
Ha, I was just struck by the mental image of a duffel bag with a cat tail hanging out, some really scratched arms and a gallon of Bactine... |
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11/20/2008 01:02:19 PM · #1203 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
On liberal and conservative morality
(NB I haven't actually had a chance to listen to this, but most TED talks have been interesting in the past) |
Man, that guy explains the root conflict and issue in such an eloquent way. Just incredible. You can see how it directly plays out in the issue we've been discussing. |
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11/20/2008 01:15:41 PM · #1204 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Gordon:
On liberal and conservative morality
(NB I haven't actually had a chance to listen to this, but most TED talks have been interesting in the past) |
Man, that guy explains the root conflict and issue in such an eloquent way. Just incredible. You can see how it directly plays out in the issue we've been discussing. |
And of course I can't listen to it. Anyone seen a transcript?
R.
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11/20/2008 01:40:24 PM · #1205 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Gordon:
On liberal and conservative morality
(NB I haven't actually had a chance to listen to this, but most TED talks have been interesting in the past) |
Man, that guy explains the root conflict and issue in such an eloquent way. Just incredible. You can see how it directly plays out in the issue we've been discussing. |
And of course I can't listen to it. Anyone seen a transcript?
R. |
Thanks for making me look Robert. This isn't a transcript, but it's an essay by the speaker Jonathan Haidt. His talk is about the five foundations of morality and so is the essay. I haven't read it yet, but man I was struck by a paragraph on the first page...
But now suppose another neighbor puts up a large sign in his front yard
that says Gay marriage will destroy society. You ask him to explain the
sign, and he replies, Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Gay
marriage will undermine marriage, the institution upon which our society
rests. You ask him to explain how allowing two people to marry who are in
love and of the same sex will harm other marriages, but he changes the
subject. Because your neighbor is not alone in his beliefs, he does not meet
the DSM-IV criteria for delusion. However, you might well consider your
homophobic neighbor almost as delusional, and probably more offensive,
than your cable-fearing neighbor. He, too, seems to be responding to forces,
threats, and agents that do not exist, only in this case his widely shared
beliefs have real victims: the millions of men and women who are prohibited
from marrying the people they love, and who are treated unjustly in matters
of family law and social prestige. If only there were some way to break
through your neighbors delusions—some moral equivalent of Thorazine—
which would help him see the facts as you see them.
Sorry for the formatting.
The essay can be found here |
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11/20/2008 03:07:16 PM · #1206 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Man, that guy explains the root conflict and issue in such an eloquent way. Just incredible. You can see how it directly plays out in the issue we've been discussing. |
Aside from the people here, I wonder if you know or have ever personally known a homosexual person? If so, in what capacity? If not, why do you think that is? This is naked curiosity and might be too private for you to answer, so feel free to ignore. (Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll.) |
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11/20/2008 03:19:46 PM · #1207 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Man, that guy explains the root conflict and issue in such an eloquent way. Just incredible. You can see how it directly plays out in the issue we've been discussing. |
Aside from the people here, I wonder if you know or have ever personally known a homosexual person? If so, in what capacity? If not, why do you think that is? This is naked curiosity and might be too private for you to answer, so feel free to ignore. (Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll.) |
I'm pretty sure I've talked about my friend Woody. He was one of my closest friends in undergrad. We were in the honors program together and both very active in the campus church group. We also had bible studies weekly with a third friend as well as "accountability meetings" where we would share struggles and conflicts and look for help. I moved on to Med School and Woody became a dentist in Seattle. Slowly over time our contact has diminished but we still send christmas cards, etc. About three to five years ago we met Woody during a visit back home and he came out of the closet. The actuality was not that Woody was secretly gay during undergrad, but I think he was conflicted within himself and had finally come to terms with it at some point after the time we were together. We still send Christmas cards etc, and I have really wanted to contact him on a more personal level after all these talks. I think he will have a unique insight into the juxtaposition of the Christian faith and being gay. Woody is/was one of the most mature Christians I knew at the time and I looked up to him as more than just a peer but somewhat of a teacher.
Other than that I've certainly had a few coworkers here and there that were obviously gay. I'd just call them acquaintances though.
Good enough? |
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11/20/2008 03:31:20 PM · #1208 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm pretty sure I've talked about my friend Woody. |
So, it seems clear from your ongoing (though distant) relationship that you do not consider Woody a source of evil in the world -- he is the "same person" he was before. Do you think he "chose" to be/become gay, or that it's "just the way he is" and, if the latter, why should you want to deny him the right to marry the person he loves if he wants to? |
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11/20/2008 03:31:56 PM · #1209 |
| I wonder if people who enjoy an abomination like pork also attack the very fabric of society by using the term "lunch" to describe their ham sandwich? There really should be a campaign to redefine lunch as non-porcine in nature. |
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11/20/2008 03:36:53 PM · #1210 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
I wonder if people who enjoy an abomination like pork also attack the very fabric of society by using the term "lunch" to describe their ham sandwich? There really should be a campaign to redefine lunch as non-porcine in nature. |
My friend Kate tells me that pigs in the Holy Land live on raised wooden platforms, because the applicable edict declares that swine shall not be raised "on the soil of Israel." |
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11/20/2008 03:40:48 PM · #1211 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
My friend Kate tells me that pigs in the Holy Land live on raised wooden platforms, because the applicable edict declares that swine shall not be raised "on the soil of Israel." |
Yep, true. We live in a wacky world. |
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11/20/2008 03:49:30 PM · #1212 |
Louis, I'll answer. Loads of them, and probably more than I know, since I figure that unless I'm considering a relationship with a person their sexual orientation is of no relevance.
My cousin is gay. The one who was, for years, executive director for "The National" with Lloyd Robertson. He has been in a committed relationship for many years. It was never really talked about in our immediate family, I think we all just assumed it once he was into adulthood. (We didn't see him often, though he and my mother wrote regularly.)
My mother referred to his partner as his roommate, if I remember correctly, until after she met his partner. I guess that seeing them together left no ambiguity. She had no problem adjusting her terms of reference once she was certain. I think my mother felt more respect and affection for that cousin than any of the others, come to think of it, and it was definitely mutual. Then again, his mother was the sister she was closest to, as well.
(Btw, my mother was born in 1918. If she could accept and embrace people as people, regardless of orientation, why are those of current generations having so much trouble?)
The first gay couple to be married in our church and became active and valuable members of the congregation. One of the men made a stained-glass window for the church. My mother died shortly before the dedication ceremony so he asked my permission to dedicate it in her memory, which touched me deeply.
My manager when I worked at Salvation Army. She left to move to Vancouver and marry her partner, but she came back to visit and share her wedding pictures. We'd belonged to the same online community before that, though I didn't really know her but knew the woman she was dating at the time.
Several of our customers at the Salvation Army store.
One of my best friend's daughters, who my kids grew up with.
At least one of my daughter's classmates and at least one of my son's.
Lots more who have passed through my life at various points. I really tend to forget just who's gay and who isn't because it's just not that important in my interactions with them :) |
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11/20/2008 03:49:40 PM · #1213 |
| Anyone seen "Religulous"? Maher interviews a rabbi in Israel who has created an industry out of inventing devices that perform menial tasks on the Sabbath to get around the "no work on Saturday" rule. |
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11/20/2008 04:00:04 PM · #1214 |
I can't believe I forgot one on my list;
Of the DPCers that I've met IRL, one of my favourites :) I really wish I lived closer so I could visit :( |
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11/20/2008 04:13:50 PM · #1215 |
nevermind
Message edited by author 2008-11-20 16:16:14. |
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11/20/2008 04:15:19 PM · #1216 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll. |
I live in Austin. (in case that's not clear, that's quite a large yes)
Message edited by author 2008-11-20 16:16:24. |
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11/20/2008 04:17:39 PM · #1217 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Lots more who have passed through my life at various points. I really tend to forget just who's gay and who isn't because it's just not that important in my interactions with them :) |
Not to be cynical, but outside of your cousin you probably forget who's gay and who isn't because none of those people play a big role in your life... |
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11/20/2008 04:18:14 PM · #1218 |
Originally posted by Louis:
(Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll.) |
I can’t check my friends off easily as to “is” and who “isn’t” – my mind just doesn’t function that way.
However, if pressed, I can come up with a Lesbian couple, who, with their adopted children, share the title of Honorary Nieces and are as close to me as family can be. Speaking of family, of course my brother was.
Otherwise, if I really remember to classify, in my close circle of friends, perhaps five or six are gay, while in a wider circle of people whose company I enjoy, perhaps I could conservatively list 12-14.
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11/20/2008 04:28:02 PM · #1219 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Louis:
Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll. |
I live in Austin. (in case that's not clear, that's quite a large yes) |
My ex was in show business. (in case that's not clear, that's quite a large yes)
I knew a caring, friendly, generous guy in his 50's who owned a house with his non-spouse, a loving, devoted couple... and a very well decorated house.
I knew a young single guy who never would have tripped my "gaydar." He had no interest in pushing any morality on anybody.
I knew a wonderful, friendly guy (also, no "gaydar" tripping), who put his life on hold and went home to California to be with his non-spouse dying of AIDS.
AIDS taught a lot of gay men about "til death do us part." To me, that is the essence of marriage, not "a man and a woman." |
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11/20/2008 04:29:17 PM · #1220 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Lots more who have passed through my life at various points. I really tend to forget just who's gay and who isn't because it's just not that important in my interactions with them :) |
Not to be cynical, but outside of your cousin you probably forget who's gay and who isn't because none of those people play a big role in your life... |
But if their orientation was a big deal to me I'd tend to remember more, the same as I'd likely remember an encounter with... oh, say conjoined twins for example.
I know there are people I interact with on a daily basis who are gay. I've thought of a few more since my previous post. But it's just not a big deal, so I find I have to really stop and think about what gender that person's partner is. |
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11/20/2008 04:36:05 PM · #1221 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Aside from the people here, I wonder if you know or have ever personally known a homosexual person? If so, in what capacity? If not, why do you think that is? This is naked curiosity and might be too private for you to answer, so feel free to ignore. (Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll.) |
You're kidding, right?
You said that like it's unusual. I guess that maybe to some it is, but only if you kind of live in a small world.
I can't count how many gay people are in my life in one form or another.
The involvement I have in social action affords me exposure to many different types of people with different cultures, backgrounds, and mindsets......and certainly gay people don't really stand out to me any more than old people, tall people, white people, black, people, German people, Australian people......you getting the drift?
I don't like assholes much, but that little aberration transcends all kinds of cultural, ethnic, religious, gender, age, and national boundaries.
One thing that I find amusing is that there's a percentage that ranges to as much as 20% of the congregation of my church about whom I have no clue. The important, and wonderful part about that is that it doesn't matter....these are PEOPLE that are part of the extended family that is my church's congregation.
I've had openly, at least to me, gay friends since high school, which means I've had gay friends for more of my life than not.
I simply cannot understand why any thinking person would have any problem with another human being's sexual orientation.
If they hit on you, decline if that's not your thing, but remember that you may have hit on someone whose interest didn't include you, either.
If someone asks you out, it's a compliment, not an affront to your existence.
The gallery where I have the bulk of my work is owned by a gay couple, their employees are gay, at least most, I'm not sure of one guy, the man that cut my hair for 20 years was gay, I have numerous friends at the church who are gay, one is a retired Methodist minister, and she's a dear friend and confidant.......I very much admire the person she is and seek her counsel......
This feels silly, like the guy who claims he's not prejudiced 'cause "he knows one black guy....."
To me, gay people are PEOPLE, not gay, their sexual orientation has no bearing on my relationship with them as friends, business associates, fellow artists.....
I just DON'T get it with any other line of thought.
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11/20/2008 04:38:15 PM · #1222 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Lots more who have passed through my life at various points. I really tend to forget just who's gay and who isn't because it's just not that important in my interactions with them :) |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Not to be cynical, but outside of your cousin you probably forget who's gay and who isn't because none of those people play a big role in your life... |
No, it's more of an indication that their sexual orientation is simply irrelevant to many people.
It is NOT a big deal.
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11/20/2008 04:39:56 PM · #1223 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll. |
I used to work in W. Hollywood, so that's a yes.
Now that I live here in the midwest, I'm friends with several gay people here.
Their sexual orientation has never been an issue for me in relating to them as people. |
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11/20/2008 04:50:34 PM · #1224 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Louis:
Aside from the people here, I wonder if you know or have ever personally known a homosexual person? If so, in what capacity? If not, why do you think that is? This is naked curiosity and might be too private for you to answer, so feel free to ignore. (Others can also answer if they like; a kind of poll.) |
You're kidding, right?
You said that like it's unusual. I guess that maybe to some it is, but only if you kind of live in a small world.
I can't count how many gay people are in my life in one form or another.
The involvement I have in social action affords me exposure to many different types of people with different cultures, backgrounds, and mindsets......and certainly gay people don't really stand out to me any more than old people, tall people, white people, black, people, German people, Australian people......you getting the drift?
I don't like assholes much, but that little aberration transcends all kinds of cultural, ethnic, religious, gender, age, and national boundaries.
One thing that I find amusing is that there's a percentage that ranges to as much as 20% of the congregation of my church about whom I have no clue. The important, and wonderful part about that is that it doesn't matter....these are PEOPLE that are part of the extended family that is my church's congregation.
I've had openly, at least to me, gay friends since high school, which means I've had gay friends for more of my life than not.
I simply cannot understand why any thinking person would have any problem with another human being's sexual orientation.
If they hit on you, decline if that's not your thing, but remember that you may have hit on someone whose interest didn't include you, either.
If someone asks you out, it's a compliment, not an affront to your existence.
The gallery where I have the bulk of my work is owned by a gay couple, their employees are gay, at least most, I'm not sure of one guy, the man that cut my hair for 20 years was gay, I have numerous friends at the church who are gay, one is a retired Methodist minister, and she's a dear friend and confidant.......I very much admire the person she is and seek her counsel......
This feels silly, like the guy who claims he's not prejudiced 'cause "he knows one black guy....."
To me, gay people are PEOPLE, not gay, their sexual orientation has no bearing on my relationship with them as friends, business associates, fellow artists.....
I just DON'T get it with any other line of thought. |
Exactly what I was trying to get across. I guess I need more coffee :)
A VERY close friend in Australia has only once made me so livid that I could barely speak to him. That was when he told me he'd pushed down some guy in a bar who hit on him. Man, I really lost it! I never thought I'd see a man who can toss me around like a feather pillow (and has) cower but he was like a whipped puppy by the time I finished. But he saw my point!
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If they hit on you, decline if that's not your thing, but remember that you may have hit on someone whose interest didn't include you, either.
If someone asks you out, it's a compliment, not an affront to your existence. |
Once I calmed enough to be coherent that's what I told him, and he agreed once he'd had time to digest it. He still remembers, years later.
Maybe it's a tiny thing, but if we can all make one person see there's hope yet for compassion and understanding. |
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11/20/2008 04:53:37 PM · #1225 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Lots more who have passed through my life at various points. I really tend to forget just who's gay and who isn't because it's just not that important in my interactions with them :) |
Not to be cynical, but outside of your cousin you probably forget who's gay and who isn't because none of those people play a big role in your life... |
Hmmm. Well. No. I'd say it's more evidence that she relates to them as people first and their sexual identity is way down the list.
What priority do you place on the sexual identity of individuals you encounter daily? Is that what you think about when you see a random woman? a man? The woman who rings up your groceries? Your co-workers? Do you internally relate to them as people or as sexual beings and consider how they fit with how you define yourself sexually?
I'm not trying to go all Sigmund on you, but it's something to consider. |
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