| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/02/2012 06:14:12 PM · #5826 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
How many straw mans DO you have in that closet Doc? You never seem to run out. Fall in line or refuse to participate in discussion? Was THAT what Mousie said cus I read something totally different.
He said open your eyes and stop defending the bigots just because they call themselves Christians. Open your eyes and see calling fire and brimstone on our entire culture just because some people that love each other want to get married has nothing to do with "family values". What about our families? Talk about not loving people that "disagree" with you. You can't claim to love people you don't think deserve the same rights as you so don't even try it. This bigger man condescending talk is getting old. |
Calm down, Monica. Don't be so angry all the time. I clearly said I don't like the "fire and brimstone" language that Cathy was quoted as saying. Does that not count for anything? What do you expect me to say? Between you, me, and Mousie, I'm acting the least vitriolic here.
Just to repeat my quote: "Listen. If you want to hear it from me, I don't like language like that either. I find it somewhat arrogant to claim to know what will invoke God's judgement (although I suppose he hedged by prefacing with "I think"). We ALL are ripe for judgement so it's somewhat hypocritical to think one set of improper actions are more likely to set it off than another. God's judgement and forbearance is equally available to all."
Message edited by author 2012-08-02 18:18:26. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 06:34:28 PM · #5827 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
snip
Calm down, Monica. Don't be so angry all the time. /snip |
What you have said to Monica above is condescending. She is voicing some incredulity, without using caps or exclamation marks, and somehow she is someone who needs to be calmed because she is expressing outrage without frothing at the mouth and spouting gibberish? Doc, please take a few steps back and think about how you've chosen to address her and how your words, as polite as you may think they are, are actually really insulting. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 06:43:42 PM · #5828 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
This gal gets it!
Proverbs 25:21
OK, she uses air quotes a little too often, but makes a great point. |
Someone did the challenge of only ordering water:
Reduce $'s to Chick-Fil-A's Hate Groups
|
|
|
|
08/02/2012 07:00:28 PM · #5829 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
snip
Calm down, Monica. Don't be so angry all the time. /snip |
What you have said to Monica above is condescending. She is voicing some incredulity, without using caps or exclamation marks, and somehow she is someone who needs to be calmed because she is expressing outrage without frothing at the mouth and spouting gibberish? Doc, please take a few steps back and think about how you've chosen to address her and how your words, as polite as you may think they are, are actually really insulting. |
What she said, Doc. You know I love ya, but in the recent parts of this exchange you're coming across as obnoxiously condescending, and what you just said to Monica is like the ultimate hot-button pushing of the classic chauvinist, which I know you are not.
R. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 07:07:16 PM · #5830 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
snip
Calm down, Monica. Don't be so angry all the time. /snip |
What you have said to Monica above is condescending. She is voicing some incredulity, without using caps or exclamation marks, and somehow she is someone who needs to be calmed because she is expressing outrage without frothing at the mouth and spouting gibberish? Doc, please take a few steps back and think about how you've chosen to address her and how your words, as polite as you may think they are, are actually really insulting. |
Frisca, I'm not insulting her. It's not an insult to say that you sound angry. Listen, we all know that written communication is a very poor method compared to face to face talking because so much is lost in tone and inflection. If you all think I'm overstepping my bound by telling her how I read her statements (primarily the second post), then that's fine. I'll back off and say I'm sorry in an effort to not lose the actual point of my post which is to ask what she wants of me? Must I fall in line and proclaim my full support for gay marriage to earn her respect? Is that all that will suffice? Did she not notice that I, too, had said I can't get on board with Cathy's verbage?
Perhaps the better word was "sarcastic" rather than "angry".
Message edited by author 2012-08-02 19:08:54. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 07:20:30 PM · #5831 |
Doc, you didn't say "you sound angry", you said, as the quote illustrates "don't be so angry" and "calm down". These statements imply that we ought to ignore what she is saying because YOU say she needs to be calmed, and is simply an angry person. You don't acknowledge her ability to have a valid point because you have now labelled her as some sort of hysterical, angry woman. It is condescending, and that is insulting to a person who is trying to have a reasonable (if not a bit heated) discourse.
You are doing what Mousie and Monica have been trying to illustrated to you is the problematic behaviour. That I have to spell this out is really troubling to me. You are denying Monica's voice because you are calling her "uncalm" and "angry". I've de-railed this thread long enough, but I am happy to receive your replies to this point either in a new thread of your creation, or we can do it over PM. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 07:24:55 PM · #5832 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
snip
Calm down, Monica. Don't be so angry all the time. /snip |
What you have said to Monica above is condescending. She is voicing some incredulity, without using caps or exclamation marks, and somehow she is someone who needs to be calmed because she is expressing outrage without frothing at the mouth and spouting gibberish? Doc, please take a few steps back and think about how you've chosen to address her and how your words, as polite as you may think they are, are actually really insulting. |
What she said, Doc. You know I love ya, but in the recent parts of this exchange you're coming across as obnoxiously condescending, and what you just said to Monica is like the ultimate hot-button pushing of the classic chauvinist, which I know you are not.
R. |
This wouldn't be the first time I've gotten this reaction from him and others. As stupid as it sounds, I still recall insults he hurled at me what... holy cow, maybe 6 years ago. I've since realized that what he meant to be insults are actually compliments and what's sad is that it seems plain to me he won't realize that. I will be a hummingbird. ;)
|
|
|
|
08/02/2012 09:18:30 PM · #5833 |
This latest spate of public homophobia has certainly provided Pulitzer Prize winner Mike Luckovich with plenty of material ...
  
Gotta admit that some of the Chik-fil-a "Cow-mercials" are pretty funny ... |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 09:25:14 PM · #5834 |
| ....and sales at chic-fil-a have skyrocketed. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 09:44:38 PM · #5835 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
....and sales at chic-fil-a have skyrocketed. |
As is usual when media saturates the ignorant. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 10:22:24 PM · #5836 |
Just to put a few facts out there separated from hype and spin. You can make of them what you want.
WinShape is the charitable arm of Chick-fil-a.
Total donations in 2010: $3,842,480 (I got this directly off their tax statement)
Total donations to charities that are "anti-gay" (as claimed by Equality Matters (tagline: A campaign for full LGBT equality)): $1.9 million
Here's where it gets a little dicey. If you just want to consider the above groups "hate groups" because they are anti-gay, then use the above number (but we'll get back to this). If you want to consider a group a "hate group" if it has been formally designated as such by someone, read below:
Total donations to a charity designated as a "hate group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center: $1,000 to the Family Research Council
(The story is apparently that the FRC paid $25,000 to lobbyists in Washington in an effort to reject a resolution condemning Uganda's anti-homosexual bill (which had some crazy stuff in it like death penalties)).
So, to summarize. Of the $3.84 million dollar donated in 2010, $1,000 (or 0.02%) was donated to a designated hate group. This should, at the very least, encourage a high degree of due diligence for charitable givers everywhere because this small donation has opened the door to statements like, "Chick-fil-a donated to anti-gay hate groups in 2010" (which is true). All the other good done is forgotten or overlooked.
On the other hand, if we just want to label "anti-gay" as a unofficial "hate group", then we're talking bigger numbers. $1.9 million (I let Equality matters do the math although you can see it right on the tax form). But let's look closer and take a random example. Fellowship of Christian Athletes got $480,000. I linked their homepage "about FCA". They have their vision statement, mission statement, core values, etc. right there for you to evaluate. I don't see anything about their focus being to beat down the gay movement. I'll take Equality Matter's word for it that they are against gay marriage, but I don't see it as their emphasis or raison d'etre. So, in the end, is this really a group about being "anti-gay"?
So evaluate the numbers and make your own judgements. Perhaps you think this is still enough to condemn them. If so, at the very least you can take that principle and understand someone in the next door thread who says, "I can't support Planned Parenthood because they perform abortions." Before you tell them, "but only 3% of their services are abortions" decide whether that threshold is similar to this threshold. Decide if a group like Fellowship of Christian Athletes is any more about hating gays than Planned Parenthood is about murdering babies. At the very least we can avoid one or the other argument. We can't have both. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 10:33:32 PM · #5837 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Just to put a few facts out there separated from hype and spin. You can make of them what you want.
WinShape is the charitable arm of Chick-fil-a.
Total donations in 2010: $3,842,480 (I got this directly off their tax statement)
Total donations to charities that are "anti-gay" (as claimed by Equality Matters (tagline: A campaign for full LGBT equality)): $1.9 million
Here's where it gets a little dicey. If you just want to consider the above groups "hate groups" because they are anti-gay, then use the above number (but we'll get back to this). If you want to consider a group a "hate group" if it has been formally designated as such by someone, read below:
Total donations to a charity designated as a "hate group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center: $1,000 to the Family Research Council
(The story is apparently that the FRC paid $25,000 to lobbyists in Washington in an effort to reject a resolution condemning Uganda's anti-homosexual bill (which had some crazy stuff in it like death penalties)).
So, to summarize. Of the $3.84 million dollar donated in 2010, $1,000 (or 0.02%) was donated to a designated hate group. This should, at the very least, encourage a high degree of due diligence for charitable givers everywhere because this small donation has opened the door to statements like, "Chick-fil-a donated to anti-gay hate groups in 2010" (which is true). All the other good done is forgotten or overlooked.
On the other hand, if we just want to label "anti-gay" as a unofficial "hate group", then we're talking bigger numbers. $1.9 million (I let Equality matters do the math although you can see it right on the tax form). But let's look closer and take a random example. Fellowship of Christian Athletes got $480,000. I linked their homepage "about FCA". They have their vision statement, mission statement, core values, etc. right there for you to evaluate. I don't see anything about their focus being to beat down the gay movement. I'll take Equality Matter's word for it that they are against gay marriage, but I don't see it as their emphasis or raison d'etre. So, in the end, is this really a group about being "anti-gay"?
So evaluate the numbers and make your own judgements. Perhaps you think this is still enough to condemn them. If so, at the very least you can take that principle and understand someone in the next door thread who says, "I can't support Planned Parenthood because they perform abortions." Before you tell them, "but only 3% of their services are abortions" decide whether that threshold is similar to this threshold. Decide if a group like Fellowship of Christian Athletes is any more about hating gays than Planned Parenthood is about murdering babies. At the very least we can avoid one or the other argument. We can't have both. |
Wow. Really. Abortion isn't even in the same breath as same-sex marriage, and using the term "murdering babies" is not only disingenous, but purposely misleading and pointed.
I used to think that you were a fairly intelligent, decent person that was just a little too buried in your faith and robotic reliance on other people to make decisions for you to really turn whatever corner you needed to turn. However, the more you post, the more I realize that the intelligence I had attributed to you is instead just ignorant knowledge being held forth as a mask, and that decency is also a front. Unfortunately, you rely too much on "debate tactic" and your own personal sense of self-arrogance to bully down any opposition you encounter. I guess it works for you much of the time, because it's a tactic you use so much I don't even think YOU know you use it anymore. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 10:54:05 PM · #5838 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Wow. Really. Abortion isn't even in the same breath as same-sex marriage, and using the term "murdering babies" is not only disingenous, but purposely misleading and pointed. |
Ed! That's the whole point! The people who are against PP call them "baby murderers" just as the pro-marriage people call someone like Fellowship of Christian Athletes "anti-gay" or even lumping them in with "hate groups" (done above in the thread). They are BOTH hyperbolic posturing. I was doing my best to point that out. Frankly I'm against ALL such posturing.
I was also pointing out that if you think to yourself, "well, it doesn't matter. Even if a thousandth of a thousandth is donated to a hate group, I can't support them and I will denounce them." you can't then turn around and think the PP haters out there are any more intolerant of institutions that do not support their values. It cuts both ways.
Message edited by author 2012-08-02 22:56:03. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 11:13:46 PM · #5839 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Wow. Really. Abortion isn't even in the same breath as same-sex marriage, and using the term "murdering babies" is not only disingenous, but purposely misleading and pointed. |
Ed! That's the whole point! The people who are against PP call them "baby murderers" just as the pro-marriage people call someone like Fellowship of Christian Athletes "anti-gay" or even lumping them in with "hate groups" (done above in the thread). They are BOTH hyperbolic posturing. I was doing my best to point that out. Frankly I'm against ALL such posturing.
I was also pointing out that if you think to yourself, "well, it doesn't matter. Even if a thousandth of a thousandth is donated to a hate group, I can't support them and I will denounce them." you can't then turn around and think the PP haters out there are any more intolerant of institutions that do not support their values. It cuts both ways. |
You've also ignored my posts about them bullying small businesses and discriminating against and pushing their beliefs on employees. I was already spreading the boycotting sentiment of Chick-fil-A before any of this gay marriage stuff cropped up because of their ridiculous fight against Eat More Kale. Corporate bullies that want to put the little guys out of business, like Monsanto, like Chick-fil-A, like so many others, should get the message that we will not put up with it. Not to mention their food is crap. They aren't really successful in a "free market" if they are barreling over anyone smaller than them with lawyers just because they can.
This whole gay marriage thing was just the icing on the cake. Then the lies, well those are the groom-groom and bride-bride figurines on the top.
Check the link again. Your facts are wonky. What about the $1,188,380 Marriage & Family Foundation:
What gets lost in all this is... where is that money really going? How Christian is it? Why not donate to those less fortunate? Why does this issue get SOOO much funding? What are people so afraid of?
And as far as Cathy's statements about "god's judgement", as Jon Stewart so succinctly put it "So the country has made it through an Indian genocide, slavery, segregation and nine Police Academy movies, somehow escaping God's judgment, I don't think letting gays register at Bed Bath & Beyond is going to tip the scales."
Message edited by author 2012-08-02 23:15:23. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 11:28:30 PM · #5840 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Check the link again. Your facts are wonky. What about the $1,188,380 Marriage & Family Foundation:
What gets lost in all this is... where is that money really going? How Christian is it? Why not donate to those less fortunate? Why does this issue get SOOO much funding? What are people so afraid of?
And as far as Cathy's statements about "god's judgement", as Jon Stewart so succinctly put it "So the country has made it through an Indian genocide, slavery, segregation and nine Police Academy movies, somehow escaping God's judgment, I don't think letting gays register at Bed Bath & Beyond is going to tip the scales." |
Stewart is a really witty guy. I always enjoy him even if I disagree. Ok, let's look at the charity you mentioned above. I couldn't find a web presence, but I did find a PDF that was a report by them. What does it talk about? Can a company help strengthen a marriage and avoid divorce? And does this effort benefit the company? I don't see a single mention of pro/con gay marriage. I assume again that they have some anti-gay marriage stance, but it doesn't seem to be emphasized. Certainly I'm having trouble finding something by them about it (and I'm honestly trying). You can be pro-traditional marriage and not even bring up gay marriage I guess.
Can you begin to understand the hyperbole going on? Is this 1.1 million dollars really all going just to defeat gay marriage around the country?
Message edited by author 2012-08-02 23:30:45. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 11:31:09 PM · #5841 |
Can I hijack a moment here and say I have a gay friend who is against gay marriage and he drives me totally nuts fighting for these people that hate him and condemn him to hell. It's so self loathing I don't know what to do. He's arguing with me on facebook over this
saying "What, freedom of speech looks stupid?" Oh my god.
Brainwashing at it's finest. It's like if Rosa Parks was like "Oh yea, you're totally right, I SHOULD go to the back of the bus."
Ugh. Freedom of speech is all well and good, but if you're shouting something stupid from the rooftops, you still look like a moron.
Making this whole Chick-fil-A thing about "freedom of speech" is so manipulative and frustrating.
Message edited by author 2012-08-02 23:33:12. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 11:38:40 PM · #5842 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Check the link again. Your facts are wonky. What about the $1,188,380 Marriage & Family Foundation:
What gets lost in all this is... where is that money really going? How Christian is it? Why not donate to those less fortunate? Why does this issue get SOOO much funding? What are people so afraid of?
And as far as Cathy's statements about "god's judgement", as Jon Stewart so succinctly put it "So the country has made it through an Indian genocide, slavery, segregation and nine Police Academy movies, somehow escaping God's judgment, I don't think letting gays register at Bed Bath & Beyond is going to tip the scales." |
Stewart is a really witty guy. I always enjoy him even if I disagree. Ok, let's look at the charity you mentioned above. I couldn't find a web presence, but I did find a PDF that was a report by them. What does it talk about? Can a company help strengthen a marriage and avoid divorce? And does this effort benefit the company? I don't see a single mention of pro/con gay marriage. I assume again that they have some anti-gay marriage stance, but it doesn't seem to be emphasized. Certainly I'm having trouble finding something by them about it (and I'm honestly trying). You can be pro-traditional marriage and not even bring up gay marriage I guess.
Can you begin to understand the hyperbole going on? Is this 1.1 million dollars really all going just to defeat gay marriage around the country? |
Maybe not anti-gay marriage but hella creepy: "Business is driven by profit. Employees in healthy marriages can increase that profit, while employees in failing relationships decrease that profit. The chasm between the boardroom and the family room is closing. No longer can the relationship issues of your workforce be ignored or passed over. It could be irresponsible – fiscally, socially, and ethically – to ignore how marriage and divorce affect your company’s financial bottom line. "
Eww.
In any case, going by their claims, seems like a case for legalizing gay marriage. Less unmarried people running around. :P
ETA: Dang it, I dunno what's going on with all those numbers. I can't see them when I try to edit them out.
Message edited by author 2012-08-02 23:40:28. |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 11:42:15 PM · #5843 |
| So basically... they are making the case that it's a good idea for corporations to butt their noses into their employees marriage, and said people think that gay marriage is not ok so... I'm lead to believe... they'll just leave their forcibly single gay employees alone? Cus they have gay employees, cus they don't discriminate... |
|
|
|
08/02/2012 11:58:18 PM · #5844 |
Well, you can certainly have other objections Monica. It seems like maybe we're at least getting somewhere to realize the guy hasn't been donating millions of bucks hellbent on defeating gay marriage above all else.
I'll tell you what. If you do the legwork and find a link to WinShape that I can email. I will personally write a letter asking them to reconsider their donations to the Family Research Council on the grounds they seem to be extreme and designated as a hate group and that we can do better as Christians than to support them even with $1,000. |
|
|
|
08/03/2012 12:41:08 AM · #5845 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Brainwashing at it's finest. It's like if Rosa Parks was like "Oh yea, you're totally right, I SHOULD go to the back of the bus." |
If it works for you on an individual level, then who is anyone else to say what you should think? Clarence Thomas has a life time appointment because he thought that way. |
|
|
|
08/03/2012 07:54:55 AM · #5846 |
It's funny......I have no issues about my faith. To me it's always been a personal relationship with the God of my understanding. The more comfortable I've become with my faith, the more trouble I have with religion.
I have serious issues with humans telling me I'm wrong about my relationship with God and that their way is *THE* way. I've been the recipient of enough grace in my life that I don't buy that. I'll take my chances with God as I understand *his* intentions for me, not some guy ranting from a pulpit.
The God of my understanding does not discriminate.....
Not against Jews...
Not against Muslims...
Not against blacks...
Not against women...
Not against gays....
Not against any of his children...
|
|
|
|
08/03/2012 01:21:37 PM · #5847 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by David Ey:
....and sales at chic-fil-a have skyrocketed. |
As is usual when media saturates the ignorant. |
Are you calling me ignorant? When I make similar comments one of the SC deletes it.
BTW, have you driven by any of the stores? It is unbelievable how busy they are. |
|
|
|
08/03/2012 01:25:38 PM · #5848 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by David Ey:
....and sales at chic-fil-a have skyrocketed. |
As is usual when media saturates the ignorant. |
Are you calling me ignorant? When I make similar comments one of the SC deletes it.
BTW, have you driven by any of the stores? It is unbelievable how busy they are. |
A general statement of mass ignorance is not a personal attack unless you choose to see it that way. |
|
|
|
08/03/2012 01:27:40 PM · #5849 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's funny......I have no issues about my faith. To me it's always been a personal relationship with the God of my understanding. The more comfortable I've become with my faith, the more trouble I have with religion.
I have serious issues with humans telling me I'm wrong about my relationship with God and that their way is *THE* way. I've been the recipient of enough grace in my life that I don't buy that. I'll take my chances with God as I understand *his* intentions for me, not some guy ranting from a pulpit.
The God of my understanding does not discriminate.....
Not against Jews...
Not against Muslims...
Not against blacks...
Not against women...
Not against gays....
Not against any of his children... |
What about those who don't believe? :) |
|
|
|
08/03/2012 01:30:53 PM · #5850 |
| They are still his children, so still no discrimination :-) |
|
