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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?
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10/28/2008 01:44:13 PM · #501
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Mousie:

What the heck should I do???

Nothing. Now is the moment to experience the Zen of simply being.


So if Prop 8 passes I can feel miserable that I didn't do more? It's a lose/lose situation, IMO.
10/28/2008 01:48:07 PM · #502
We’re getting close to the day when California’s Proposition 8 – banning Gay marriage—will be decided. (No vote: don’t ban). For those of us who know this is a civil right that should not be withheld from any citizen of our country, this is a no-brainer.

For those in California who may still be undecided, I offer this story.

We’ve come a long way in 50 years. Not ALL the way, but a fair distance.

We’re near the birthday – and sadly the violent deathday – of my gay brother 26 years later,
some 50 years ago.

In the 50 years that have passed history has been made. Here in San Francisco two lesbians, Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin celebrated their 50+ year union with the first legal gay marriage in California, shortly before Del died.

I’ll digress here to include some words, edited for space, written by a friend of mine who attended the memorial service for Del.


"By 2:00 PM the rotunda of the beautiful San Francisco City Hall was filled with people.
Del died less than three months after she married her partner of 55 years. Mayor Gavin Newsom officiated at their marriage as the first one to be performed in the State of California after the Supreme Court had declared that persons of the same gender had a constitutional right to be married. Now her widow, Phyllis Lyon, was seated with the mayor at her side. These two women had very graciously and persistently worked for civil rights for LGBT people all those years.

"Throughout the ninety minutes I was close to tears many times. It was amazing to me that after these many years I was witnessing such an occasion in this beautiful and historic structure. The same building had been the scene of the assassination of Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk thirty years earlier.

"Interspersed with poetry and music were celebrities and ordinary people paying tribute to this remarkable woman. There was a color guard composed of members of the San Francisco Fire, Police and Sheriff’s Departments. It doesn’t seem too long ago when the police were our enemy, not our friends. How very far we have come.

"A spokesperson from the National Organization for Women told the wonderful story of how when they opened the organization to men, they offered a rate for couples. Del wrote a letter (as has always been her custom) asking how they defined couple pointing out that she and Phyllis were a couple. Over the years I had come to realize that this was their modus operandi. They were never hostile. They just wrote letters pointing out the obvious to the oblivious.

"Most touching for me was the beautiful tribute given by their daughter Kendra She said she was going to say something that the audience may not agree with. She said that her “mom” was not an extraordinary woman. She was an ordinary woman who did extraordinary things. That any of us could do the same. She also told the wonderful story of how the two of them may have split their first year, but they could not find a way to divide the cat!"

Now, Mousie is married to the partner of his choice. His civil rights have been affirmed.

Let’s keep it that way.

But I DO like my friend's line:

"Point out the obvious to the oblivious." But never through hostility.
10/28/2008 01:48:26 PM · #503
Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by Jac:

After reading what Prop8 was on wiki I have to say I'm worried that it will pass.


You're not the only one!

The 'yes' signs are now 3:1 vs. the 'no' signs in my neighborhood. I get sick every time I drive past them. I feel like they want me out of 'their' neighborhood.

I deal with a lot of social anxiety, and the thought of knocking on their doors to ask why they're displaying the signs and to let them know how their actions will effect the people around them... I'm panicky just thinking about it. This comes paired with SUCH a great feeling, hating myself for being such a p***y that I'm too worried about confrontation to even talk to the neighbors.

I have no idea what to do. I feel like I need to do something, but that I won't be heard if I talk to them, and that I run a real risk of repercussions too!

What would I say? I don't want to debate them or argue with them. We can all see how well that goes here, and maybe it's social conditioning, but I truly worry about being assaulted by people who don't think i'm an equal citizen when they're upset by something. Even by something simple, like me challenging their beliefs by existing nearby! I've seen video of NON-gays getting assaulted in Oakland for just filming 'yes' protestors!

I need a script or something.

What the heck should I do???


Is there anyone you can canvas your neighborhood with. I completely understand your reluctance to do this alone, but you shouldn't have to. If this was happening here, I'd be looking for an opportunity to get out and help make a difference (sorry, I can't get out to California right now). You must have friends who are keen to help, and I'm sure they have friends too. Become a community organizer -- who know where it can take you :)

Message edited by author 2008-10-28 13:49:05.
10/28/2008 01:59:31 PM · #504
Originally posted by eqsite:

Is there anyone you can canvas your neighborhood with. I completely understand your reluctance to do this alone, but you shouldn't have to. If this was happening here, I'd be looking for an opportunity to get out and help make a difference (sorry, I can't get out to California right now). You must have friends who are keen to help, and I'm sure they have friends too. Become a community organizer -- who know where it can take you :)


I've had a few local offers of support, and my husband (who's as worried about confrontation as I am) will come with me (and panic with me) if I ask him to.

I don't want to storm the neighborhood with a mob though... I don't like intimidating others as much as I dislike being intimidated myself. I don't even like pairs of JW's showing up to chat. I think it would have to be at most my partner and I, AS NEIGHBORS, with maybe someone third party off on the sidewalk keeping an eye on us. I don't want people on the defensive... they won't listen.

God, I'm such a chickenshit.

Thanks for pointing this out to me so clearly, conservatives. You've made me feel like a hostage in my own home. Too bad I'm not one of those ass-kicking, masculine gays with, you know, muscles and confidence.

Message edited by author 2008-10-28 14:00:40.
10/28/2008 02:03:26 PM · #505
Originally posted by Mousie:

I've had a few local offers of support, and my husband (who's as worried about confrontation as I am) will come with me (and panic with me) if I ask him to.

I don't want to storm the neighborhood with a mob though... I don't like intimidating others as much as I dislike being intimidated myself. I don't even like pairs of JW's showing up to chat. I think it would have to be at most my partner and I, AS NEIGHBORS, with maybe someone third party off on the sidewalk keeping an eye on us. I don't want people on the defensive... they won't listen.

God, I'm such a chickenshit.

Thanks for pointing this out to me so clearly, conservatives. You've made me feel like a hostage in my own home. Too bad I'm not one of those ass-kicking, masculine gays with, you know, muscles and confidence.


I assume you've been here. You can't expect to do this alone, and getting down on yourself won't help. I'm much like you and I'd be nervous as hell to go door-to-door. Don't put it all on your shoulders -- find a group that's already doing something -- they'll now how best to put you to work.
10/28/2008 02:37:30 PM · #506
Originally posted by eqsite:

I assume you've been here. You can't expect to do this alone, and getting down on yourself won't help. I'm much like you and I'd be nervous as hell to go door-to-door. Don't put it all on your shoulders -- find a group that's already doing something -- they'll now how best to put you to work.


Yeah, I hit that site every day for the latest news, have donated to them twice, direct people there to donate instead of giving wedding gifts (hint hint), and have discussed phone banking with them, but haven't had the time or will to bank myself, what with all the wedding planning and relatives in town (and anxiety, to be honest). Oh the irony!

A number of my friends have done phone banks, so at least they're directly involved with contacting people.

I've actually chatted with one of their volunteers at length about what someone like me can do while still avoiding confrontation, and at the time they didn't really have anything available. I've heard that they now need people to do non-interactive stuff like make signs, so I'll give them a call again.

Where's my antacid?

Sometimes I wonder who I would be as a man today if I didn't grow up fearing for my safety when I express myself. Would I have more confidence? How much of my anxiety was given to me? I was a very repressed child... I wasn't comfortable expressing physical affection until well into my 20's for fear of offending those around me, no matter how innocent that affection might have been, or who the target was. I have this really warped sense of personal space now... you can't beleive how freaked out I was when I visited Bangalore, with it's crazy population density.

That's another big reason I want my relationship legitimized in the eyes of the law... so kids like I used to be don't get twisted by the fear society instills in them from the first time some middle-school bully calls another kid a fag before beating them up, or their minister or parents threaten them with eternal fire. To save them the grief that simply being themselves can cause them. It can really mess you up! Thank GOODNESS I had kind and loving parents, liberal schools, and wonderful Vermont to mitigate the strain.

Nobody should have to grow up with that fear, and KEEPING gay marriage legal will go a long way towards changing people's attitudes, in my opinion.

Message edited by author 2008-10-28 14:56:39.
10/28/2008 04:23:13 PM · #507
Interesting video on Obama's position on same-sex marriage vs. civil unions.
10/29/2008 04:32:35 PM · #508
I usually just stick to the photography specific forums here, and don't get involved in Rants, but I don't see this thread as a rant, and I do have something to say.

Besides wanting to congratulate Mousie, I wanted to announce that I'm marrying my partner of 14 years, Allex , this coming Saturday. This has been an emotional roller-coaster of a time for me. Happy that I'm finally able to get married, and realizing that being able to get married is far more important to me than I would have ever believed. Like Mousie, I'm riding the roller coaster of poll results right now.

I had the good fortune of meeting Del and Phyllis about 20 years ago, when they'd *only* been together for about 35 years, and there wasn't even any thought that we might be discussing this issue today. When I get down about the latest polls, I think about the changes that have happened during Del and Phyllis' lives, and realize that while the pendulum will swing back and forth, the tide of history is inexorably moving towards equality.

10/29/2008 06:46:22 PM · #509
Originally posted by Ann:

the tide of history is inexorably moving towards equality.

YES! Yes, it is.

Meanwhile, my very best wishes to you and to Allex for a happy wedding day on Saturday. And more best wishes for a long and happy marriage.

BTW, I loved your wedding invitation cover! (on your profile page) Aloha makes a perfectly gorgeous model. I'm sure she brought a smile to every recipient's face; she did mine.

Alice

10/29/2008 08:23:45 PM · #510
Originally posted by sfalice:



Meanwhile, my very best wishes to you and to Allex for a happy wedding day on Saturday. And more best wishes for a long and happy marriage.

BTW, I loved your wedding invitation cover! (on your profile page) Aloha makes a perfectly gorgeous model. I'm sure she brought a smile to every recipient's face; she did mine.

Alice


Thanks so much, Alice! Aloha's also the model for the thank you cards. I'll post that after the wedding. Too busy now.
10/30/2008 11:49:09 PM · #511
Originally posted by Ann:

I wanted to announce that I'm marrying my partner of 14 years, Allex , this coming Saturday.


Awesome! I'm so happy for you!

And happy in a way I could never feel as deeply if I hadn't been allowed to legally marry, myself! Just like any other profound, intense experience, everything that follows is seen through it's lens, at least for a while. Heck, even the tacky fake flower decor at In & Out Burger kinda choked me up, by reminding me of the bouquets we had. You know the feeling, that warm sentimentality and sense of belonging to something larger that yourself that comes with participation in humanity's rituals? This one's a real doozy!

I hope yours brings you as much love and joy as ours has. :)

Please, conservatives, don't RUIN this for us!
10/31/2008 12:17:20 AM · #512
Congratulations Ann, hope your roller coaster ride starts to flatline soon, it inevitably will, with time.

Best of luck with prop8. What are the polls saying lately?
10/31/2008 04:13:16 AM · #513
Ann, big CONGRATS, and can't wait for the pictures!! I assume Aloha has a place in the wedding party? :) (She's just too cute!)
10/31/2008 05:15:51 AM · #514
Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm

Originally posted by article:

The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.

The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".

Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".

The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges.

10/31/2008 06:07:53 AM · #515
Originally posted by JH:

Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm

Originally posted by article:

The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.

The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".

Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".

The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges.


Being Gay is NOT a phycological defect... being a pedophile IS.

Perhaps the church would be better served by looking at the root cause of the scandals they are experiencing. Had they dealt with the issue head on when first reported, instead of transferring priests from pillar to posts in an effort to hide the problem, perhaps they might have gained proper insight into the problems at hand.

Funny how civil lawsuits and court ordered compensation to victims has a way of instilling awareness to a problem.

Ray

10/31/2008 06:57:57 AM · #516
Originally posted by Ann:

I usually just stick to the photography specific forums here, and don't get involved in Rants, but I don't see this thread as a rant, and I do have something to say.

Besides wanting to congratulate Mousie, I wanted to announce that I'm marrying my partner of 14 years, Allex , this coming Saturday. This has been an emotional roller-coaster of a time for me. Happy that I'm finally able to get married, and realizing that being able to get married is far more important to me than I would have ever believed. Like Mousie, I'm riding the roller coaster of poll results right now.

I had the good fortune of meeting Del and Phyllis about 20 years ago, when they'd *only* been together for about 35 years, and there wasn't even any thought that we might be discussing this issue today. When I get down about the latest polls, I think about the changes that have happened during Del and Phyllis' lives, and realize that while the pendulum will swing back and forth, the tide of history is inexorably moving towards equality.


Congratulations and best wishes!
10/31/2008 07:10:00 AM · #517
Originally posted by Ann:


Besides wanting to congratulate Mousie, I wanted to announce that I'm marrying my partner of 14 years, Allex , this coming Saturday.


Congratulations to both of you and may your future be replete with happiness and joy.

Ray
10/31/2008 10:32:09 AM · #518
Originally posted by JH:

Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm

Originally posted by article:

The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.

The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".

Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".

The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges.

Oh yeah!

The Roman Catholic church is the example I want to lead my life!

Not in my worst nightmare. They have ruled through fear, intimidation, and hypocrisy for hundreds of years.

No thanks!
10/31/2008 10:45:30 AM · #519
Congratulations, Ann! I, too, think your wedding invitation is wonderful! Have a great day tomorrow, and I look forward to a few pictures if you care to share! Best wishes to both of you! (And to Aloha, of course.) Enjoy!
10/31/2008 10:58:57 AM · #520
Originally posted by JH:

Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm

Originally posted by article:

The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.

The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".

Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".

The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges.


Seeing as their pedophile policy has solved nothing, I see this effort finishing with the same results.

Religion is always hiding its defects from the world. It's an amazing and troubling fact that so many people still believe what this religion dictates to the world. A bunch of homophobic pedophiles trying to tell the world what is right and what isn't is the biggest travesty this planet has tolerated for 2,000 years.

I'm embarrassed to be a human being with people like this trying to convince me that nature is wrong and that a higher order is what's important on this planet rather than respecting your fellow human being as what they are and moving on with your life. Isn't that what's it's all about folks?

Catholicism is on the same course as dinosaurs, extinction, but not soon enough.
11/02/2008 07:56:30 AM · #521
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by JH:

Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm

Originally posted by article:

The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.

The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".

Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".

The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges.


Seeing as their pedophile policy has solved nothing, I see this effort finishing with the same results.

Religion is always hiding its defects from the world. It's an amazing and troubling fact that so many people still believe what this religion dictates to the world. A bunch of homophobic pedophiles trying to tell the world what is right and what isn't is the biggest travesty this planet has tolerated for 2,000 years.

I'm embarrassed to be a human being with people like this trying to convince me that nature is wrong and that a higher order is what's important on this planet rather than respecting your fellow human being as what they are and moving on with your life. Isn't that what's it's all about folks?

Catholicism is on the same course as dinosaurs, extinction, but not soon enough.


I think that Catholicism has severely distorted the teachings of the Bible. I personally think that it is a mistake to assume that because man has distorted, corrupted, and misused religion that God does not exist. His existence does not rely upon our good behavior. Not looking for an argument here. Just pointing out that if you argue 'organized religion is crap therefore there must not be a God' that this is not a logical argument. I'll concede that there is little in the way of a logical argument that he exists either. It is a matter of faith.
11/02/2008 09:10:12 AM · #522
Originally posted by dponlyme:

Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by JH:

Well, at least the Roman Catholic Church Ltd. are clamping down on gays. They're making a renewed effort to weed out priests with homosexual tendencies;

//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7700710.stm

Originally posted by article:

The authors said screening would help avoid "tragic situations" caused by what they termed psychological defects.

The guidance says the voluntary tests should also aim to vet for those with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".

Among other traits that might make a candidate unsuitable for the priesthood, the advice lists "uncertain sexual identity," "excessive rigidity of character" and "strong affective dependencies".

The document also makes reference to heterosexual urges.


Seeing as their pedophile policy has solved nothing, I see this effort finishing with the same results.

Religion is always hiding its defects from the world. It's an amazing and troubling fact that so many people still believe what this religion dictates to the world. A bunch of homophobic pedophiles trying to tell the world what is right and what isn't is the biggest travesty this planet has tolerated for 2,000 years.

I'm embarrassed to be a human being with people like this trying to convince me that nature is wrong and that a higher order is what's important on this planet rather than respecting your fellow human being as what they are and moving on with your life. Isn't that what's it's all about folks?

Catholicism is on the same course as dinosaurs, extinction, but not soon enough.


I think that Catholicism has severely distorted the teachings of the Bible. I personally think that it is a mistake to assume that because man has distorted, corrupted, and misused religion that God does not exist. His existence does not rely upon our good behavior. Not looking for an argument here. Just pointing out that if you argue 'organized religion is crap therefore there must not be a God' that this is not a logical argument. I'll concede that there is little in the way of a logical argument that he exists either. It is a matter of faith.

Darren, I'd just like to clear up a few things about why many atheists reject God and help you understand that it's not just the homophobic and inhumane behavior that exists in the various sects and fundamentally in the bible. But, this is a discussion better suited for this other thread you started (and I'll paste a full response there).

Message edited by author 2008-11-02 13:49:03.
11/03/2008 01:02:54 AM · #523
I liked the Sacromento Bee's endorsement on Prop 8, I thought it condensed alot of thought into a few words.

"Summary: Would change the constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California.

Why we oppose it: This initiative is a response to a state Supreme Court ruling in May. The court ruled that the constitution does not allow the state to deny those who are homosexual the right to marry – just as it decided 60 years ago that the California Constitution does not allow the state to deny individuals of different races the right to marry.

Just as an individual's sexual orientation is not a legitimate basis on which to deny housing or a job, it is not a legitimate basis on which to deny individuals the right to marry. Californians should reject the call to amend the state constitution to exclude some people from marriage. That would be a black mark on the constitution, just as past exclusionary acts remain a stain on California's history.

Vote no on 8 "

My opinion is summed up by the sign in the back window of my truck, which reads "My marriage doesn't need your protection. No on 8"
11/03/2008 09:43:09 AM · #524
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

I liked the Sacromento Bee's endorsement on Prop 8, I thought it condensed alot of thought into a few words.

"Summary: Would change the constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California.

Why we oppose it: This initiative is a response to a state Supreme Court ruling in May. The court ruled that the constitution does not allow the state to deny those who are homosexual the right to marry – just as it decided 60 years ago that the California Constitution does not allow the state to deny individuals of different races the right to marry.

Just as an individual's sexual orientation is not a legitimate basis on which to deny housing or a job, it is not a legitimate basis on which to deny individuals the right to marry. Californians should reject the call to amend the state constitution to exclude some people from marriage. That would be a black mark on the constitution, just as past exclusionary acts remain a stain on California's history.

Vote no on 8 "

My opinion is summed up by the sign in the back window of my truck, which reads "My marriage doesn't need your protection. No on 8"


Yep, says it all!
11/04/2008 02:41:36 PM · #525
Today's the day, people! Vote NO on California Proposition 8!

I did!

To protect my marriage!
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