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10/18/2010 06:57:32 PM · #5051 |
| ....and you were doing sooo good too. |
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10/18/2010 08:41:16 PM · #5052 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
....and you were doing sooo good too. |
My hidden agenda bubbles to the surface! |
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10/18/2010 11:01:32 PM · #5053 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'm on the fence whether firemen should be forced to put out folks from Westboro, should they happen to be on fire.
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Yes. That would be one helluva moral decision, wouldn't it? Hopefully it would take a few minutes to resolve... |
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10/19/2010 09:56:21 AM · #5054 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'm on the fence whether firemen should be forced to put out folks from Westboro, should they happen to be on fire.
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Yes. That would be one helluva moral decision, wouldn't it? Hopefully it would take a few minutes to resolve... |
In my ignorance, I did a search for Westboro. OMG!!! That just isn't right. As a Christian, I am sorry that groups like that exist.
To use God and hate in the same sentence is blasphemy. That just isn't right.
edit: Removed the link on my search. If you want to see that trash, search for yourself. BTW, it's not just homosexual people they hate, they also hate Jews. Just a bunch of haters using the name of God.
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 10:00:05. |
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10/19/2010 12:02:40 PM · #5055 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'm on the fence whether firemen should be forced to put out folks from Westboro, should they happen to be on fire.
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Yes. That would be one helluva moral decision, wouldn't it? Hopefully it would take a few minutes to resolve... |
In my ignorance, I did a search for Westboro. OMG!!! That just isn't right. As a Christian, I am sorry that groups like that exist.
To use God and hate in the same sentence is blasphemy. That just isn't right.
edit: Removed the link on my search. If you want to see that trash, search for yourself. BTW, it's not just homosexual people they hate, they also hate Jews. Just a bunch of haters using the name of God. |
Now you better understand the full scope of the continuum I place you on, Nullix!
This is precisely why I so urgently request the faithful to clean up your own house before thinking about mine.
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 21:23:27. |
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10/19/2010 08:23:18 PM · #5056 |
WHAT in the WORLD can you people STILL be talking about here?
I've seen this in the upper threads for MONTHS. But, I'm afraid to see what you're saying.
Carry on.
*grin* |
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10/22/2010 01:51:03 PM · #5057 |
Carrying on:
Churches contribute to gay suicides, most Americans believe
Thoughts? Personally I think it's a bit of a melodramatic play to use the deaths of kids (which is nothing new, but is being held up to the light now) to score political points. It's been going on for a few weeks now...
I don't think the premise is wrong. Kids really are dying, but this is not a new phenomenon! It's only getting play now because we're near an election, IMO.
So, is it cool to use dead kids to fight for equal rights? Conversely, is it cool to use dead kids to suggest homosexuality itself is the problem (aka it's the shame at being 'immoral' that's the killer, not the constant societal pressure and bullying that gays endure)?
The whole thing makes me feel kind of gross.
Message edited by author 2010-10-22 13:51:39. |
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10/22/2010 02:37:01 PM · #5058 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
WHAT in the WORLD can you people STILL be talking about here?
I've seen this in the upper threads for MONTHS. But, I'm afraid to see what you're saying.
Carry on.
*grin* |
I think we are finding out mice are OK. |
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10/22/2010 03:52:51 PM · #5059 |
Popular opinion piece.
Most Americans believe Churches contribute to gay suicides.
Does it matter if people believe Churches cause suicides? It either does or doesn't. The question is, "Is the church causing suicides?" If that's the case, the church isn't doing it's job.
I don't understand the part about, "Catholics were the most critical of their own churches' messages on homosexuality,..." With Catholicism, if you don't follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, you're not Catholic. Maybe most Catholics don't understand their Church's teaching in the first place.
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10/22/2010 03:55:52 PM · #5060 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
I don't understand the part about, "Catholics were the most critical of their own churches' messages on homosexuality,..." With Catholicism, if you don't follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, you're not Catholic. Maybe most Catholics don't understand their Church's teaching in the first place. |
It's not possible to "follow the teachings" whilst at the same time expressing dismay at them? Sounds like the real world to me. "I'm a Catholic but I'd be a lot happier about it if they eased up a bit on birth control and gays..."? That sort of thing?
R. |
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10/22/2010 04:12:54 PM · #5061 |
Now wouldn't it surprise the homosexuals who regularly attend the Unitarian church I belong to, to find out that doing so brings them closer to suicide! Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson might argue with the 2 out of 3 Americans as well.
If the study had asked if black people were responsible for crime what do you think the response would have been? I'll bet 2 out of 3 would say yes, but it would have been such an obviously racist question, it could never have been asked.
Generalisation is a bad place to start a survey from, and if you can't see the distinction between Unitarian Universalism and the bastards over at the Westbourough Baptist Church (godhatesfags.com) then you aren't looking very carefully.
Churches are like people, and tough to lump all in one group. |
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10/22/2010 05:08:50 PM · #5062 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Now you better understand the full scope of the continuum I place you on, Nullix!
This is precisely why I so urgently request the faithful to clean up your own house before thinking about mine. |
Are you implying that all religious people are part of the same "house"? Westboro Baptist Church unfortunately uses the words "Baptist" and "Church" in it's name, but it is actually an independent church, not affiliated with or governed by any Baptist denominations. They openly preach hatred, and claim that God does not love all people. They are preaching a gospel other than the gospel of Jesus Christ, a.k.a. heresy.
Originally posted by Mousie:
Carrying on:
Churches contribute to gay suicides, most Americans believe
Thoughts? Personally I think it's a bit of a melodramatic play to use the deaths of kids (which is nothing new, but is being held up to the light now) to score political points. It's been going on for a few weeks now...
I don't think the premise is wrong. Kids really are dying, but this is not a new phenomenon! It's only getting play now because we're near an election, IMO.
So, is it cool to use dead kids to fight for equal rights? Conversely, is it cool to use dead kids to suggest homosexuality itself is the problem (aka it's the shame at being 'immoral' that's the killer, not the constant societal pressure and bullying that gays endure)?
The whole thing makes me feel kind of gross. |
I do think that the gay suicides that have been taking place lately are receiving extra attention right now because of the upcoming elections. I don't know any official statistics, but I'm guessing that the percentage of teen/adolescent suicides that are related to sexual orientation is not huge, but I could be wrong. Suicide and depression are both serious problems regardless of race, age, sexual orientation, etc. The fact is that if you're depressed you need to get help. Suicide is ultimately an individual choice. It is the result of an individual failing to seek help when they need it.
Message edited by author 2010-10-22 17:09:58. |
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10/22/2010 05:20:58 PM · #5063 |
Honestly, I do put religious (Judeo-Christian-Islamic) people in the same group. You're all somewhere in a continuum of the Abrahamic faithful, to me. If you don't like being associated with the more extreme ends of your community, it's up to you to disassociate yourselves through action. Prove it! From my point of view, repeating the same messages with gentler language makes no difference.
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I do think that the gay suicides that have been taking place lately are receiving extra attention right now because of the upcoming elections. I don't know any official statistics, but I'm guessing that the percentage of teen/adolescent suicides that are related to sexual orientation is not huge, but I could be wrong. Suicide and depression are both serious problems regardless of race, age, sexual orientation, etc. The fact is that if you're depressed you need to get help. Suicide is ultimately an individual choice. It is the result of an individual failing to seek help when they need it. |
And what if family/society is unwilling to provide help when turned to?
Many gay kids grow up in environments where help is simply not available, and asking for help could get you disowned or even assaulted, because you have to out yourself to get it.
Classic Catch-22. |
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10/22/2010 05:33:12 PM · #5064 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
And what if family/society is unwilling to provide help when turned to?
Many gay kids grow up in environments where help is simply not available, and asking for help could get you disowned or even assaulted, because you have to out yourself to get it.
Classic Catch-22. |
Well then it's societies job to make help more readily available so that kids can bypass their families. Most kids who struggle with depression don't know what's causing their depression. It's the psychologist's/therapist's job to figure that out. I could see why a gay kid wouldn't want to "come out" if they knew their family wouldn't support them, but I don't see how any kid would know the cause of their depression and be able to tell their parents, "mom, dad, I'm depressed because (insert cause)". Even if a kid somehow knew that their sexual orientation (or bullying related to it) was causing their depression, they wouldn't have to tell that to their parents. The real problem is that parents suck at identifying signs of depression, and our society has not done a good job of educating kids about it so most kids don't even know that they can get help for it. Adolescents can hardly figure out their own emotions as it is. |
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10/22/2010 05:35:27 PM · #5065 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Honestly, I do put religious (Judeo-Christian-Islamic) people in the same group. You're all somewhere in a continuum of the Abrahamic faithful, to me. If you don't like being associated with the more extreme ends of your community, it's up to you to disassociate yourselves through action. Prove it! From my point of view, repeating the same messages with gentler language makes no difference. |
Let's not paint with such a broad brush. Since you are an American I guess I should assume that you are a racist, homophobic, genocidal, NASCAR watching, wife-beating (or husband-beating in your case) bigot? There are certain populations of Americans that fit all the above and America's leadership has displayed the first three categories for sure in official capacity. (I can't speak to the NASCAR watching or the wife-beating.)
For someone who I'm guessing suffers from people stereotyping, this seems to be a silly thing to say.
EDIT: Just clarifying the first sentence.
Message edited by author 2010-10-22 17:43:44. |
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10/22/2010 05:52:54 PM · #5066 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Many gay kids grow up in environments where help is simply not available, and asking for help could get you disowned or even assaulted, because you have to out yourself to get it.
Classic Catch-22. |
Might I suggest a church? It is where people who need help often find it. You may tar all faiths with the same brush, but I can tell you that any kid with a problem could find shelter in the right one.
The catch-22 is that progressive houses of worship are seen by conservatives as not being "real" churches, and on the other hand seen by areligious or atheists as being just the same as the people who want to stone witches. |
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10/22/2010 07:34:32 PM · #5067 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Let's not paint with such a broad brush. Since you are an American I guess I should assume that you are a racist, homophobic, genocidal, NASCAR watching, wife-beating (or husband-beating in your case) bigot? There are certain populations of Americans that fit all the above and America's leadership has displayed the first three categories for sure in official capacity. (I can't speak to the NASCAR watching or the wife-beating.) |
I'll happily place my self on a continuum of Americans... from naive, bleeding heard liberals to exhaust huffing, confederate flag-waving NASCAR fans. What's the problem? I'm an American somewhere in the middle. I'm curious why you'd resist being grouped with other people of faith in the Abrahamic traditions.
Addressing more than DrAchoo,
It's a complete distortion of my position to suggest that by placing you on a continuum that I'm saying you share the characteristics of the extremes. That's unfair. It's not even sensible... acids and bases are part of the same continuum, pH, and nobody would ever accuse an acid of being a base... they're like... opposites.
Why is grouping you all conceptually equated with tarring and feathering? Show me where I've said you all suffer from the same faults. If that were true, my plea for you to mind your peers wouldn't even make sense! It's implicit in my request that you do NOT share the same traits, and that I want the more reasonable amongst you to put the less reasonable in check. I was honest. I do see you all as part of the same group. That doesn't mean I can't draw distinctions between you all on an individual basis, or even church basis.
Really, is that too much to bear?
It's your construct, after all. I'm an atheist. Why should I be responsible for changing the attitude of your less-than-reasonable peers when they're being justified with the tenants of your faith? Most wouldn't listen to a heathen like me anyway. It up to you to say "That's NOT our faith, cut the crap!"
Jeeze you guys are so sensitive. :)
Message edited by author 2010-10-22 19:42:19. |
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10/22/2010 08:00:22 PM · #5068 |
| I'm pretty sure there has been widespread condemnation from within the Christian community for a place like Westboro. But I hear your point about the "continuum". That makes me feel better than you laying the sins of the extreme fringe on the average person. |
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10/22/2010 08:51:55 PM · #5069 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
It's your construct, after all. I'm an atheist. Why should I be responsible for changing the attitude of your less-than-reasonable peers when they're being justified with the tenants of your faith? Most wouldn't listen to a heathen like me anyway. It up to you to say "That's NOT our faith, cut the crap!" |
I liked your entire post Mousie, up until the part I quoted. The "it's your problem, you deal with it" attitude is contributing to the problem. You said it yourself, we're all Americans somewhere on the the "continuum". You'd probably have just as much (if not more) success as I would trying to sway religious radicals one way or another. You say that religious folks should get their own house in order, but what about all Americans getting the USA in order?
You can say, "That's not your faith" just as easily as I can say "That's not our faith". If I marched into Westboro or any other extreme religious environment I would not be considered part of their "faith" anymore than you would. You might be considered a heathen to Westboro folks, but I would be considered a heretic. What do you think is worse?
ETA: clarification
Message edited by author 2010-10-22 21:03:19. |
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10/24/2010 01:25:18 PM · #5070 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I liked your entire post Mousie, up until the part I quoted. The "it's your problem, you deal with it" attitude is contributing to the problem. You said it yourself, we're all Americans somewhere on the the "continuum". You'd probably have just as much (if not more) success as I would trying to sway religious radicals one way or another. You say that religious folks should get their own house in order, but what about all Americans getting the USA in order?
You can say, "That's not your faith" just as easily as I can say "That's not our faith". If I marched into Westboro or any other extreme religious environment I would not be considered part of their "faith" anymore than you would. You might be considered a heathen to Westboro folks, but I would be considered a heretic. What do you think is worse? |
No, you can't say it's not your faith as easily as I can. Faith in a higher power: You have it, I don't. I have faith in stuff like 'muffins are delicious'.
I mean, you could perhaps make a case if Westboro were Buddhist or something, but you undeniably share traditions! It's only the interpretation and expression of your faith that is different. In all seriousness, I think Westboro's interpretation of the Abrahamic tradition is equally valid as that of any other church. I don't like it as much, I think it's disgusting and hateful, and a stain on human history, but it's valid. As valid as Muslim or Jewish interpretations, too! I don't put any stock in a particular church claiming all the good parts of the tradition for itself and pushing away all the bad parts not being 'true' faith... you all do that! And you don't even agree on what the bad and good parts are!
The god I see in the Bible is a capricious, spiteful, and angry god. A god that condemns. Fred Phelps has a point! Only a tiny branch of your family tree has freed people from that angry god stuff through Christ, and... obviously... not even all Christians agree on this point.
I've gotten a bit off track though. Are you seriously suggesting you want an atheist to tell religious (in this case Abrahamic) people how to better practice your faith? I thought I was being rather polite by leaving that part out and sticking to the secular implications of the faithful's collective behavior. I really, really doubt you'd be receptive to my suggestions. I'm surprised you're soliciting them, honestly.
When it comes down to it, it's about being practical. I talk with the faithful* I think I might have a chance with. Then, once I have a rapport, ask them to do the dirty work. Sounds pretty reasonable to me! :) If that wasn't clear... I am dealing with it. If you don't want to help me out, that's your business!
* photogrophers, mainly
Message edited by author 2010-10-24 13:32:52. |
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10/24/2010 01:33:04 PM · #5071 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
When it comes down to it, it's about being practical. I talk with the faithful* I think I might have a chance with. Then, once I have a rapport, ask them to do the dirty work. Sounds pretty reasonable to me! :) If that wasn't clear... I am dealing with it. |
Holy Cow man, that's clear to me. Move on to someone else? I thought you had a husband. |
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10/24/2010 01:45:18 PM · #5072 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by Mousie:
When it comes down to it, it's about being practical. I talk with the faithful* I think I might have a chance with. Then, once I have a rapport, ask them to do the dirty work. Sounds pretty reasonable to me! :) If that wasn't clear... I am dealing with it. |
Holy Cow man, that's clear to me. Move on to someone else? I thought you had a husband. |
David, I don't appreciate how you've been repeatedly pointing out the fact that I've commented again as the main subject of your posts in these threads. It isn't going to make me comment any less. This isn't the DEChallenge forums... it's the DPChallenge forums. There are other people here, and they are having a conversation with me. I'd appreciate it if you refrained from critiquing my relationship in a futile attempt to shame me into being quiet enough for you. Besides, my husband is sleeping. :)
If you're going to snipe, you could at least contribute something. |
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10/24/2010 04:33:31 PM · #5073 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I mean, you could perhaps make a case if Westboro were Buddhist or something, but you undeniably share traditions! It's only the interpretation and expression of your faith that is different. In all seriousness, I think Westboro's interpretation of the Abrahamic tradition is equally valid as that of any other church. |
Have you ever seen the science fiction movie where the alien with godlike powers discovers humanities dark side some of the evils on our past, and decides to wipe the earth clean? Then our hero must convince him that Hitler and Pol Pot are not who we are, but aberrations, that humanity has fought against, that we are worth saving? The movie turned out well because the all powerful alien was able to see that on the whole humanity was worth saving, or at least had within it the seeds of good.
I'm glad you were not cast as the all powerful arbiter, because you seem to be willing to condemn by association any religious person. To blame the horrors of Torquemada on Dr. King because they share a faith in Jesus is to fail to make any kind of moral reckoning.
Why stop at lumping all people of Abrahamic faith into one group? Why not all sentient bipeds, or all mammals?
Have you ever been abroad and had someone tell you what all Americans are like? Ever had some one light into "the white man" in front of you? I am A white man, not THE white man and am responsible only for MY actions, not the actions of all people of my skin type. Same for being an America. Same for being a person of faith. It is not my job to shift the attitude of athiests, nor the attitude of the people who justify their hatred by the teachings in the Bible
I am always happy to argue as long as there is some hope for common ground, but when I can see there there is no hope of bringing another person around to my viewpoint, it is not my responsibility to change my position because a third person can't see the difference between us.
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10/25/2010 01:12:09 AM · #5074 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I've gotten a bit off track though. Are you seriously suggesting you want an atheist to tell religious (in this case Abrahamic) people how to better practice your faith? I thought I was being rather polite by leaving that part out and sticking to the secular implications of the faithful's collective behavior. I really, really doubt you'd be receptive to my suggestions. I'm surprised you're soliciting them, honestly. |
I'm simply saying that if you think someone is being a hypocrite you should point it out to them. That's not the same as suggesting how a religious person should practice their faith. It's really unfortunate that you are putting Muslims, Jews, and Christians in the same category. It's also unfortunate that you see God as angry and condemning. Both are common misconceptions that areligious people have. I guess I'll return the favor and put you in the "common" areligious category and I'll opt out of working with you to fix our country's problems. I'll just let you take care of the areligious people's problems. Sounds fair to me.
ETA: By the way... You do realize that by alienating yourself and your problems from the "faithful" you're only giving them an excuse NOT to help you solve those problems right? If all of the people in your areligious category feel the same way as you do Mousie (i.e. leaving "us" to "our" problems) then I guess all of the religious people in my category don't need to feel too guilty about not helping you fix your problems.
I guess that means you're justified in letting me suffer with the heretics and I'm justified in letting you suffer with no rights. If only we didn't make such silly categories. Such a pity... Hey, what's that one category called again? Oh yea... human. Eh, that category isn't important.
Message edited by author 2010-10-25 01:25:09. |
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10/25/2010 01:09:55 PM · #5075 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
ETA: By the way... You do realize that by alienating yourself and your problems from the "faithful" you're only giving them an excuse NOT to help you solve those problems right? If all of the people in your areligious category feel the same way as you do Mousie (i.e. leaving "us" to "our" problems) then I guess all of the religious people in my category don't need to feel too guilty about not helping you fix your problems. |
It's just this kind of extremely pompous and patronising twaddle that puts me off many religious people and groups. Not all i might add, as i have many religious friends of numerous faiths, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Other, and have some religious tendencies myself, but i tend to shy away from the evangelical, preachy and judgemental types. The ones who want to 'fix' peoples problems (often problems that those people don't actually see as problems themselves). Yuck.
Message edited by author 2010-10-25 13:47:24. |
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