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10/21/2008 01:09:38 PM · #476 |
HEY! Someone deleted David Ey's response. Well too late. I had already seen it, and was waiting to find out how other people reacted before responding myself. I think it needs to go back up as an example, but I will respond now, regardless.
Right before rossbilly's "^^^^^^^^^^^ .wow." comment, David took the time to ask something very close to, if not exactly, "So, has your 'marriage' been consummated yet?"
This is exactly why I demand marriage rights. Separate is NOT equal, and that is VERY clear. It's certainly not equal in the eyes of conservatives. I see it all the time. I just saw it.
Let's not go into his asking of an incredibly tactless question obsessed with sex. I can deal with tactless. However, with a single pair of quotes, I feel that David chose to invalidate my relationship. It is not a 'marriage'. It is a MARRIAGE. I think so. My families think so. The state thinks so. And frankly, I don't care what your god or gods think about it. They are not mine, and this country is all about freedom of religion.
Why does David feel that such disrespect (and that is exactly how I saw it) is acceptable? Why soil my joy with a snarky question about consummation? I guarantee that David's referring to the Catholic idea of consummation, unprotected sex with the possibility of producing offspring, to intimate that my marriage is still incomplete and illegitimate, and that the Pope can dissolve it. It's not really about the sex, it's the legitimacy he's questioning.
Well to be frank, no, I did not have that. Neither has the barren wife in my teacher friends' marriage.
I fight for my equal rights because this is what gays deal with every day. When is the last time I came to your church and denied your god? Oh that's right, I don't have to... just walking down the street while holding hands with my husband does that.
Get over it, David.
I'll stop fighting for my rights when religion stops telling me how to live. I'll have as many damn marriages, revelations, and epiphanies as I see fit.
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10/21/2008 01:26:26 PM · #477 |
I'll own up to reporting David's response as baiting. I didn't think it right to call him out in the forums as that's against the forum rules, so I reported it. It seemed clear to me that he was baiting you, and I commend you for your reasoned response.
I agree entirely with your assessment of his use of 'marriage', and that is why I've argued with DrAchoo that separate but equal doesn't work. I chose not to directly engage David in discussion because there are some minds that are not likely to be open to change. |
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10/21/2008 01:30:17 PM · #478 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Remember that it's not just about a gay couple, but about two families becoming one. |
Gee....
I wonder if all the people who oppose the idea ever thought of this.
If the two families are okay with the couple, who are strangers to object? |
Assuming (against hope!) that Prop. 8 passes, who's going to tell my brother that his sister-in-law is no longer his sister? Any volunteers? |
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10/21/2008 01:36:24 PM · #479 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I don't have the professional pictures yet, but I've turned my mom into a camera junkie (yay!) so she took some of her own. I'll be sticking them both up on Flickr (linked from the photos) over the next week or so. Feel free to add me as a contact if you'd like to follow along! :)
Here it is folks! This is what they want to take away from Eric, me, and all 61 of the people who celebrated our wedding with us. Look at the face on my new aunt Erika, who officiated for us, and for whom I owe a lifetime debt of gratitude. Think of the joyous tears my weepy dad and brother shed all night. Remember that it's not just about a gay couple, but about two families becoming one.
It's about love and respect as much as it is about legal responsibilities and protections.
So respect my new family, no matter what your church may think about me personally. It's not just about us anymore. It's about them too.
Please don't let us down. |
Well,  Mousie, you had me weepy there for a minute too.
So, I went over to NO on 8 and gave them a little more money.
It's a wedding gift.
:-)) |
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10/21/2008 01:49:23 PM · #480 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Well, Mousie, you had me weepy there for a minute too.
So, I went over to NO on 8 and gave them a little more money.
It's a wedding gift.
:-)) |
Oh wow, thank you so much! I feel so STUPID not realizing that I could have registered for my wedding there instead of at retail stores until two days before the ceremony. I would much rather extend the opportunities I've been given to others than get a bunch of new glasses and dishes! We're defnitely donating some of the cash we got, after the fact. :)
Again, thank you! I can't express my gratitude enough.
OH!!! And as it turns out, my mom had handed the camera to Uncle Charlie to take those photos, since she was performing her motherly duties in the wedding party. Apparently, I've turned my mom into such a camera junkie that she's shoving it into the hands of other people to make sure she gets the shots she wants! :)
Message edited by author 2008-10-21 13:52:20. |
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10/21/2008 01:59:15 PM · #481 |
Mousie, those are absolutely awesome. Your grin is so huge it put one nearly as big on my face :) I couldn't be happier for you.
Well, actually I could. I'll be happier when the US follows Canada and makes gay marriages legal. Period. Not by individual states, not under a separate name. Marriage. Nationally.
Again, heartfelt congrats :D |
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10/21/2008 02:05:24 PM · #482 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Well, actually I could. I'll be happier when the US follows Canada and makes gay marriages legal. Period. Not by individual states, not under a separate name. Marriage. Nationally. |
That would be nice but I don't think we can do that. We have this thing called "states rights".... Maybe I am wrong, I hope so...
R. |
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10/21/2008 02:29:57 PM · #483 |
Robert, you are correct... but let's be positive & also remember there are Amendments to the Federal Constitution.
Believing that we CAN change centuries of bigotry is the first step to enacting change.
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10/21/2008 04:13:25 PM · #484 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Well, actually I could. I'll be happier when the US follows Canada and makes gay marriages legal. Period. Not by individual states, not under a separate name. Marriage. Nationally. |
That would be nice but I don't think we can do that. We have this thing called "states rights".... Maybe I am wrong, I hope so...
R. |
The other possibility here is that the Supreme Court could rule that homosexual couples are being treated unconstitutionally because they are not getting equal protection under the law when they are excluded from being married on the basis of sex & sexual orientation. Such a ruling would effectively legalize gay marriage nationally. That is now admittedly a long shot with the socially conservative Bush nominees on the court, but it could be the way gay marriage is eventually nationalized in the US if president Obama can get a couple of liberal court appointees seated. |
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10/21/2008 04:33:59 PM · #485 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Well, actually I could. I'll be happier when the US follows Canada and makes gay marriages legal. Period. Not by individual states, not under a separate name. Marriage. Nationally. |
That would be nice but I don't think we can do that. We have this thing called "states rights".... Maybe I am wrong, I hope so...
R. |
The other possibility here is that the Supreme Court could rule that homosexual couples are being treated unconstitutionally because they are not getting equal protection under the law when they are excluded from being married on the basis of sex & sexual orientation. Such a ruling would effectively legalize gay marriage nationally. That is now admittedly a long shot with the socially conservative Bush nominees on the court, but it could be the way gay marriage is eventually nationalized in the US if president Obama can get a couple of liberal court appointees seated. |
OK, gotcha. An amendment to the constitution regarding gay rights would seem to be an extreme longshot right now, but the Supreme Court ruling would work very nicely. We can only hope...
R. |
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10/21/2008 04:41:39 PM · #486 |
After 20 pages, I'm just going to answer the original question:
Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?
A very gigantic *yes*.
End of thread. lol. |
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10/21/2008 04:49:10 PM · #487 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
After 20 pages, I'm just going to answer the original question:
Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving?
A very gigantic *yes*.
End of thread. lol. |
LOL! I don't think it matters what your stance is, we can all agree that the debate on this topic is evolving. I tried pointing out the same thing many days/pages ago and somehow it didn't manage to end the discussion. :P |
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10/21/2008 05:12:25 PM · #488 |
Great shots Mousie, you both look very happy. Can't wait to see the pro shots.
One small step at a time ...
It's unstoppable now. More and more people, each and every day are learning to accept homosexuality as a fact of life. Those who don't are relics, long lost fossils who hold on to old ideas and refuse to evolve and accept others for who they are.
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10/21/2008 05:56:23 PM · #489 |
| Mousie what wonderful images of a day that you will never forget. Huge congratulations to you, Eric and to both families. I wish you a lifetime of happiness. |
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10/21/2008 07:37:33 PM · #490 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
After 20 pages, I'm just going to answer the original question:
Are gay rights, including gay marriage, evolving? |
HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!!!!!
Mousie, I believe this one's yours!.......8>)
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10/23/2008 03:42:57 PM · #491 |
Seeing those big smiles makes me very happy. Congrats, gents.
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10/24/2008 10:37:03 AM · #492 |
So I just found a document wherein a Mormon scholar completely destroys the six main arguments being made by the supporters of Prop 8, particularly those funded by the Mormon church itself, because he is so concerned about the lies and misrepresentations being made in their name that he worries it will seriously damage the church if Prop 8 passes and people subsequently find out they were misled. To quote:
"Most of the arguments contained in "Six Consequences" are either untrue or misleading. The following commentary addresses those arguments and explains how they are based on misinterpretations of law and fact. My intent is to be of service in helping our Church avoid charges of using falsehoods to gain a political victory. Relying on deceptive arguments is not only contrary to gospel principles, but ultimately works against the very mission of the Church."
To recap, here are the bogus claims knowingly and repeatedly being made by the Yes Campaign in it's intolerant efforts to legislate my relationship out of existence, despite the arguments being repeatedly shown as illegitimate, even by their churches' own members:
1. Children in public schools will have to be taught that same-sex marriage is just as good as traditional marriage.
2. Churches may be sued over their tax exempt status if they refuse to allow same-sex marriage ceremonies in their religious buildings open to the public. Ask whether your pastor, priest, minister, bishop, or rabbi is ready to perform such marriages in your chapels and sanctuaries.
3. Religious adoption agencies will be challenged by government agencies to give up their long-held right to place children only in homes with both a mother and a father. Catholic Charities in Boston already closed its doors in Massachusetts because courts legalized same-sex marriage there.
4. Religions that sponsor private schools with married student housing may be required to provide housing for same-sex couples, even if counter to church doctrine, or risk lawsuits over tax exemptions and related benefits.
5. Ministers who preach against same-sex marriages may be sued for hate speech and risk government fines. It already happened in Canada, a country that legalized gay marriage. A recent California court held that municipal employees my not say: “traditional marriage,” or “family values” because, after the same-sex marriage case, it is “hate speech.”
6. It will cost you money. This change in the definition of marriage will bring a cascade of lawsuits, including some already lost (e.g., photographers cannot now refuse to photograph gay marriages, doctors cannot refuse to perform artificial insemination of gays even given other willing doctors). Even if courts eventually find in favor of a defender of traditional marriage (highly improbable given today’s activist judges), think of the money – your money – that will be spent on such legal battles.
He does a much better job invalidating them than I could ever do, and I'd like to share.
A Commentary on the Document "Six Consequences . . . if Proposition 8 Fails"
It's incredibly heartening to see that even someone so fundamentally opposed to my existence (let's stop calling it lifestyle) can be so honest and informed, even when it undermines their own culture's goals. What an idea... not lying to get what you want.
"In summary, the arguments used in "Six Consequences ... If Proposition 8 Fails" are false, misleading, and based on faulty logic. Almost every legal case alluded to is misrepresented. The passage or failure of Proposition 8 will not affect any of the scenarios posed by this document; all of the so-called "adverse consequences" are illusory."
I didn't say it, a respected mormon scholar did! :)
In other heartening news, California's top educator, State Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O’Connell, just made an TV ad calling the Yes Campaign's dishonest use of school children to whip up fear 'shameful'. As in, "using kids to lie about that is shameful”.
I didn't say it, the head educator of the Republican administration in California did!
And in less heartening news, here's some evidence of the drepressing extortion tactics being used by the Yes Campaign to bully people into donating money. Get this, they found out that a business donated $10K to No On Prop 8, and they threatened to dishonestly name and shame the company by putting words in it's mouth unless they donate the same amount to the yes campaign! No mincing words about it!
"Were you to elect not to donate comparably, it would be a clear indication that you are in opposition to traditional marriage. You would leave us no other reasonable assumption. The names of any companies and organizations that choose not to donate in like manner to ProtectMarriage.com [sic] but have given to Equality California will be published. It is only fair for Proposition 8 supporters to know which companies and organizations oppose traditional marriage."
See the rest here: Prop 8 Threat Letter
The brazen thuggery of the Yes Campaign is there for anyone who cares to look. Please don't let these people manipulate, lie, and bully their way into making me a second class citizen!
Message edited by author 2008-10-24 11:05:18. |
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10/24/2008 11:24:29 AM · #493 |
Ooh, I got all political again there for a bit. My life these days is a rollercoaster ride of elation at being married, finally, after 13 years together, and pulse-pounding, heart-in-the-throat anxiousness about the future of our marriage and the struggle over Prop 8.
In other news, Eric and I closed out our registry at Macy's and Crate & Barrel, so now people will HAVE to donate to No On Prop 8 if they can't think of something else to give us. ;)
We got some spinner luggage and a ladel and some cute votive holders and nice silverwear with all our gift cards, too! Saaaaale!
And, to recap:
The vineyard didn't have any problems with us getting married or providing the venue. They said it was one of the best events they've ever held! (I bet they always say that, but the coordinator sure was weepy!)
The caterer didn't either. Yum!
The same goes for the florist, photographer, and DJ! Hell, our lesbian florist was getting married herself, the day after we did!
The Shane Company didn't stop us from buying matching rings, even when we had to special order one of them for my half-size finger.
MW Tux was thrilled to provide the outfits we got hitched in.
Macy's and C&B were more than happy to register us and give us a wedding discount!
So...
Why can't some religious organizations that I have nothing to do with simply leave me alone? The secular world seems to think we're dandy just the way we are! |
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10/24/2008 12:44:26 PM · #494 |
My belated congratulations to both of you. I do hope that the clear thinking folks will see the light and that the Proposition is soundly defeated.
Ray |
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10/24/2008 12:52:04 PM · #495 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
My belated congratulations to both of you. I do hope that the clear thinking folks will see the light and that the Proposition is soundly defeated.
Ray |
I'm hopeful too, but it's California...a state that's known to be short on it's supply of clear thinking folks at times.
Anyone remember Howard Jarvis? |
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10/24/2008 02:07:18 PM · #496 |
Just a clarification: the California State Superintendent of Public Instruction is an elective office, so Mr. O'Connell is not a Republican appointee.
If the Pro-8 arguments are "lies," perhaps we should consider taking out an ad naming all the pastors, priests, ministers, rabbis, imams (they left out that one, didn't they?) who have "borne false witness."
Message edited by author 2008-10-24 14:07:39. |
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10/25/2008 11:25:45 AM · #497 |
After reading what Prop8 was on wiki I have to say I'm worried that it will pass.
When ever someone asks me what my biggest fear is, my answer is always the same; the majority. |
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10/28/2008 12:30:30 PM · #498 |
Originally posted by Jac:
After reading what Prop8 was on wiki I have to say I'm worried that it will pass. |
You're not the only one!
The 'yes' signs are now 3:1 vs. the 'no' signs in my neighborhood. I get sick every time I drive past them. I feel like they want me out of 'their' neighborhood.
I deal with a lot of social anxiety, and the thought of knocking on their doors to ask why they're displaying the signs and to let them know how their actions will effect the people around them... I'm panicky just thinking about it. This comes paired with SUCH a great feeling, hating myself for being such a p***y that I'm too worried about confrontation to even talk to the neighbors.
I have no idea what to do. I feel like I need to do something, but that I won't be heard if I talk to them, and that I run a real risk of repercussions too!
What would I say? I don't want to debate them or argue with them. We can all see how well that goes here, and maybe it's social conditioning, but I truly worry about being assaulted by people who don't think i'm an equal citizen when they're upset by something. Even by something simple, like me challenging their beliefs by existing nearby! I've seen video of NON-gays getting assaulted in Oakland for just filming 'yes' protestors!
I need a script or something.
What the heck should I do???
Message edited by author 2008-10-28 12:35:04. |
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10/28/2008 12:45:13 PM · #499 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I deal with a lot of social anxiety, and the thought of knocking on their doors to ask why they're displaying the signs and to let them know how their actions will effect the people around them... I'm panicky just thinking about it. This comes paired with SUCH a great feeling, hating myself for being such a p***y because I'm too worried about confrontation to even talk to the neighbors.
I have no idea what to do. I feel like I need to do something, but that I won't be heard if I talk to them, and that I run a real risk of repercussions too!
What would I say? I don't want to debate them or argue with them. We cal all see how well that goes here, and maybe it's social conditioning, but I truly worry about being assaulted by people who don't think i'm an equal citizen when they're upset by something. Even by something simple, like me challenging their beliefs by existing nearby!
I need a script or something.
What the heck should I do??? |
You don't have to live there, but if you want to live there, you will have to make certain concessions to living there.
My neighbor has a big McCain sign displayed prominently in his yard. I won't put up an Obama sign uin my yard 'cause this guy just wouldn't be able to have a rational discussion about it.......he'd just get weird on me, and I don't need that.
Can I stand up for my rights?
Sure!
This isn't important enough for me to estrange my neighbor who I've enjoyed pleasant casual relations with a few times a year.
Dude, you have to decide whether or not the comfort and safety of your home is worth moderating your principles to keep.
That's a decision that only you can make. The trade-off would be to be pro-active elsewhere in other venues that will make a difference but not cause you problems at home.
On a more on-topic note, I went to a showing of For The Bible Tells Me So at Dickinson College here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where the parents of the filmmaker were among a panel of five distinguished folks there to field opinionms, questions, and views following the film.
It was an emotional and powerful evening, and VERY eye-opening.
I highly recommend seeing this film if you would be open to some very interesting perspectives on biblical interpretation.
One odd side note......there were two people who stood up during the discussion afterward that all but slavered at the jaws promising Hellfire & Damnation to everyone in the room. It was both sad and scary.
I got a chance to meet and talk with some terrific people who care.
That's what I took from the experience......some knowledge and nice new friends.
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10/28/2008 12:45:42 PM · #500 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
What the heck should I do??? |
Nothing. Now is the moment to experience the Zen of simply being.
Message edited by author 2008-10-28 12:46:16. |
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