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04/07/2004 01:16:09 AM · #1 |
The reaction to my Out of Place entry, Too Young To Belong , was definitely interesting to watch. The # of those who loved it are basically equal to those that hated it.
1-5 10-5
2-11 9-11
3-27 8-18
4-44 7-30
5-63 6-52
I can understand the belief that some viewed the personal information on the head stone as inappropriate or taboo, but I didn't just roam around till I found a young person. I know it's placement well. I even showed his mother (my sister), who cried & smiled at the same time...and approved. One comment I didn't understand was:
"What is photographically interesting here other than the sentiment?"
Is that not what a photograph is supposed to do? Evoke emotion, relay a sentiment or feeling? Be a photographers choice way of expresion?
I only had 8 comments & they perfectly depict the vast split in feelings from one extreme to the next...3 against the sentiment or display of personal information & 5 who saw what I did.
I'm very pleased with the photo & how it faired, placing 98th... much higher than I expected given the 5.3 score. But I was curious about the other lower votes. If anyone is so inclined, please let me know the reasons. I had very little feed back on technical aspects & am curious if it is all driven by emotion.
Thank you to all who commented, both for & against, & thanks in advance to anyone who adds to the feedback.
Message edited by author 2004-04-07 01:18:10.
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04/07/2004 01:23:41 AM · #2 |
Unfortunately, the lower scores may have come from the "Let's score repeats lower" group. Cats, flowers, sunset, tombs(memorials), flags,guitars, etc.
Couple of months ago there were so many tombstones and that maybe what happened.
I gave you an "8". Great contrasted shots will always get a "7" or higher depending on other factors. Also I tend to give the highest scores to be owners of 10Ds. I think it's the clarity of the images that the camera produces.
Message edited by author 2004-04-07 01:26:26. |
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04/07/2004 01:28:11 AM · #3 |
I loved this photo (and sorry that I didn't comment on it...)
It was really touching for me. I won't tell you my score, since I don't think that is, well, proper, but your photo definately belonged higher than the position it got. |
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04/07/2004 01:28:57 AM · #4 |
| I thought this was right on topic. Production values were good, though I thought the composition could have been more interesting than the mostly centered closeup. One other technical issue, I like the shallow DOF, but instead of a smooth, out of focus background, your background simply seems unclear, almost like movement blur. Could be an artifact of JPEG combined with something during resizing. |
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04/07/2004 01:33:57 AM · #5 |
i think the sentiment comment is saying that other than the heart strings the idea of a young person dying will pull, photographically htere isn't much happening. its just an almost straight-on shot of a tombstone - look somewhat indiscriminate.
i personally don't appreciate these kinds of photos. my very humble opinion is that they are in poor taste for a competition. profiting from someone's loss just seems wrong to me. i can't know, just by looking at the photo, if this was something condoned, condemned or even known by the people closest to the deceased, and my gut reaction is always to reject the entry. i'm just being honest.
i didn't vote in this challenge, so i didn't see your entry until now. just offering you my take on it...
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04/07/2004 01:41:16 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I thought this was right on topic. Production values were good, though I thought the composition could have been more interesting than the mostly centered closeup. One other technical issue, I like the shallow DOF, but instead of a smooth, out of focus background, your background simply seems unclear, almost like movement blur. Could be an artifact of JPEG combined with something during resizing. |
I actually wished the DOF was shallower so the names in the background were more blurred (and unreadable). I think most of the effect of the blurred background is the speckled look of what is back there (most head stones have a textured look & only a 1/2 the blades of grass have any color). That big blob in the middle of the back to stones was some kind of big leafed, red plant. It was one of the reasons I went to a sepia tone, as it pulled your eyes that way, but then just loved the whole feel it gave it.
Angles other than head on just didn't work for me & I didn't want the stones on either side showing clearly, so putting it front & center...but low...is what worked best.
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04/07/2004 02:01:43 AM · #7 |
I think Darcy raises a valid point, but I think Nancy's is just as valid.
Art is full of instances where one person profits at another persons loss. Spielbergs' "Schindler's List" is but one. How about the endless number of artist that have painted the severed head of John The Baptist? The same comparison could be made of countless musicians.
As for profit at DPC, there's absolutely nothing of import except for a few pixels on a crt.
As for the photo, I liked it. Very well composed and on topic. |
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04/07/2004 02:19:14 AM · #8 |
I think a good picture is suposed to trigger a sentiment or another, however it should be in a more subtile way. I don't know if I can put this well in english, but the way it triggers the sentiment is too straight, and sadly too common. I mean is verry sad to see such young souls gone so soon but sadly it happens so often everywhere. So nobody would feel anything for more than 10 minutes unless they are related to it. Recently one of my best friend's daughter died 2 days before her verry first birthday. That's verry sad, and they (we) are devastated. But I doubt anyone that's not related to it directly will feel anything for more than 10 minutes. Ok, everyone would say that's so sad, and I wonder what or how those parrents feel, but in 10 minutes they completely forget about it. What I'm trying to say is that is a must for a good picture to trigger any feeling for the viewer but probably not in such a direct way, and shell not be so obvious.
I'm sorry for your loss, and I hope you understand what I tried to say with my poor english.
Edit: I didn't vote in this challenge since I didn't even had time to participate but I remember a "Praying for Madrid" one in another challenge that I voted low for I felt they were taking advantage of the sad recent incident in Madrid. I think shots like this will trigger a few who will always feel you are taking advantage of a sad situation. I know you didn't but while the voting goes we can't see your comment to it so we don't know.
Message edited by author 2004-04-07 02:25:37.
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04/07/2004 02:30:01 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by LtHousLady:
I know it's placement well. I even showed his mother (my sister), who cried & smiled at the same time...and approved. One comment I didn't understand was:
"What is photographically interesting here other than the sentiment?"
Is that not what a photograph is supposed to do? Evoke emotion, relay a sentiment or feeling? Be a photographers choice way of expresion?
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This is like a portrait. This photo has sentimental value to you and the people involved. To most viewers, it's just another headstone. You can't really expect sentiment to flow unless there is something in the image that really grabs the viewer in some way. It's obvious that a child is dead. I don't know the child or the child's family. My sentiments can only go so far because of that.
This is similar to a lot of other examples here on DPC. Photos of kids, pets, etc, don't traditionally do well unless there is something particularly intriguing about the image itself. The emotion is certainly there, but it's basically irrelevant when we (the viewers) are not already tied to the subject in some way. These photos do have deep sentimental value to the owners.
Next time you try something like this, how will you make ME (the viewers) share your emotion? This photo is missing that element.
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04/07/2004 02:50:03 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
This is like a portrait. This photo has sentimental value to you and the people involved. To most viewers, it's just another headstone. You can't really expect sentiment to flow unless there is something in the image that really grabs the viewer in some way. It's obvious that a child is dead. I don't know the child or the child's family. My sentiments can only go so far because of that.
This is similar to a lot of other examples here on DPC. Photos of kids, pets, etc, don't traditionally do well unless there is something particularly intriguing about the image itself. The emotion is certainly there, but it's basically irrelevant when we (the viewers) are not already tied to the subject in some way. These photos do have deep sentimental value to the owners.
Next time you try something like this, how will you make ME (the viewers) share your emotion? This photo is missing that element. |
I understand where you're coming from. I suppose it depends on how sentamental each individual is, as it did sit well with some more than others. I feel the sadness whenever I hear of any child. Yes, as stated earlier, the feeling is gone rather quickly, but it still happened. It would be a much longer lasting effect on people who knew the person, but do we expect all the photos that we view to leave a life long impression?
With basic editing rules I had no choice but to leave the name visible. Via the title, the accent was on the age, not the person. Art to some, not to other.
The "softies" will feel the intent, where people who are less sentimental in general will just glance & move on without an evoked feeling & see it as a portrait.
I appreciate everyones comments. They've helped me sort out how to read the final results. I wanted to see it objectively....not with my personal feelings in the way.
Thanks
Message edited by author 2004-04-07 02:54:02.
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04/07/2004 02:55:47 AM · #11 |
| I gave the photo a 5. You met the challenge and the picture was focused well. However, for me the depth of field was too great (I wished the names in the background weren't clear), and the "square" composition just didn't do much for me. I've read the thread and realize you couldn't get a better perspective, but that doesn't make the picture better, just more understandable why you chose this POV. As others have said, not knowing the child there is no strong emotional reaction, either. It's sad and it happens. Of course now I feel badly for you and the rest of the family, but when looking at the picture, I did not have any context. I would have scored it higher were there some kind of WOW factor but I didn't see any. |
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04/07/2004 05:06:19 AM · #12 |
The photo was duplicitous of other tombstone shots and as noted, not an interesting angle. Still, the clarity was nice and I may be unique here, but I liked the DOF. I felt it nice that the background tombstones were still somewhat legible, but yet not the focus. The fact that the child was young when he died was not out of place for me. People die at every age. Sad, but true. So a tombstone in a graveyard -- how is this out of place? I guess the deeper DOF confirming it was indeed in a graveyard reinforced this to be not out of place. I gave it a 4, which is as high rating from me as you can get when I feel the photo hasn't met the challenge.
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04/07/2004 07:00:27 AM · #13 |
Of course there is sadness in the death of a child, that almost goes without saying.
Your photo, however, is really very blunt. It is entirely a portrait of a tombstone - what sense of location there is is simply entirely of a graveyard, exactly as one would expect, and makes no contrast, comment or difference to the view of the stone. As a study of the texture of the stone, the light is not useful - there is little sense of smoothness, or roughness, and the framing and depth of field does not allow for a perception of contrast with the grass, trees, and what surroundings are visible. This is what I mean by 'blunt' ... there is nothing else going on here, in photographic terms.
Had it been my own project, I think I would have tried to show something of the atmosphere of the cemetary/graveyard, or perhaps tried to contrast the heaviness, solidity and smoothness of the stone with the surrounding grass, leaves, or whatever. Those choices would depend on the nature of the location. Colour might have been effective in that task - it seems to be a black stone, and to contrast that with a vibrant green in the grass, or perhaps the leaves of the tree (shooting upwards from the ground), might have made colour a good choice for the shot - black and white is not necessarily the only way to 'do' sombre moods.
Just some thoughts.
Ed
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04/07/2004 07:51:06 AM · #14 |
| Maybe a toy or stuffed animal would have made it more poignent? |
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04/07/2004 10:40:26 AM · #15 |
Basically, your photo contained the information that someone died young, and not really much else. You don't have to take a photograph to convey that information. You could post the information here in one sentance and it would have the same impact - I don't need to see a tombstone to feel the sentiment there.
A photograph needs to do more. It needs to go beyond the basic information and draw us in closer to the detail. The way you chose to photograph your subject is everything. It is in the angle, the composition, the depth of field, the saturation, the lighting, the focus and a multitude of other elements - all of which need to be considered when taking a photograph. Its what seperates pictures from photographs.
I've only really come to realize this since joining DPC and seeing how my pictures stacked up against some of the photography on this site, and through the feedback of other photographerson my submissions and the submissions of others. I'm still learning how to apply all this, but now that I know it I feel I'm already a better photographer for it.
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04/07/2004 11:17:01 AM · #16 |
| I gave you a 5- right in the middle of the pack. As several have noted, there's nothing photographically special about the image, and there's nothing obviously out of place. You've entered a fairly ordinary photo of a tombstone in a graveyard. Yes, I do 'get it' but your concept relies entirely on the headline- more of a conceptual or editorial approach than photographic. Some voters don't even glance at the headline (as CLEARLY illustrated by the only comment I've received so far in the Wheels challenge). I like Ellen's idea of adding a stuffed animal for more emotional impact, but I'm not sure if that alone would be enough to get you near the top. |
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04/07/2004 12:52:26 PM · #17 |
You have a very good photo. It's moody and fairly well shot. Except for one, I think you received some fair comments. I would have liked to have seen this a little higher in the ranks.
I believe any photo outside the top ten or twenty photos is really a toss up as to where it should place overall and extremely subject to personal tastes and opinions. The quality photos usually do rise to the top in any challenge.
Why don't you go ahead and reshoot it based on the comments you received and see if you like the new one better.
Message edited by author 2004-04-07 12:53:18. |
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04/07/2004 01:02:01 PM · #18 |
My original take hasn't changed regarding your entry. It's a headstone. Kids dying young is bad. Little else here holds my interest. There's sentiment, but no real depth of emotion.
Clearly, you're an accomplished photographer, but this one didn't do it for me. |
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04/07/2004 02:14:37 PM · #19 |
While the death of a child is a tragedy, it is a truism photographed nearly as much as "kittens are cute" or “sunsets are pretty". Since the premise is not new, something in the picture must be.
Imagine this photograph was viewed by someone who can’t read English and doesn’t know what shape we use as a head stone. Shorn of any meaning conveyed in letters, what does the picture say? Like wise the stones around it are just slabs. Is this re-imagined shot worth presenting? You have a center composed piece of black rock, well exposed, but in a surrounding that is de-emphasized as much as possible. Is there beauty here? Is there a story without writing?
I don't know how many people know Weston's "Escusado" a picture that is of a toilet base, but the fact that it is of a piece of plumbing is not very important to the beauty of the picture. It has the opposite problem of your photograph, when you know what it is it hurts the shot a bit.
For your photograph to score better it has to engage on more levels.
Message edited by author 2004-04-07 14:19:03.
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