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08/15/2008 02:36:09 PM · #326
Originally posted by egamble:

...but we see story after story after story of these people stopping their meds and murdering the next door neighbor.

Really? Show us five. Should be fairly easy.
08/15/2008 02:41:58 PM · #327
Just watched your clip.

It might work for a small country like Norway.

But, in my opinion, it wouldn't be feasible in a population as diverse and large as the US population is.

Let us put the differences between these two countries into a very simple distinction.

Norway has a census record of 4,777,100 in their country. (according to wikipedia)
New York CITY (CITY) alone has 8,274,527. (according to wikipedia)

And your video only showed a predominance of 'white' people. I think the group chemistry might be a little different if you had a 'blood' from California, mixed in with 'Crypt' from NY, mixed in with a Mexican Mafia Member from Texas, and a KKK member from Alabama.

I am sure that the magick of the rainbow might win some of them over. But these are peope that will kill you because of the color of clothes that you wear, the color of your skin, and/or for walking on the wrong side of the street.
08/15/2008 02:43:12 PM · #328
Originally posted by egamble:

Originally posted by Sam94720:

egamble, you don't seem to be interested in answering my question.

Let me ask you another one, which will hopefully also provide you with some input to consider should you choose to answer the original question:

Let's say someone gives you drugs without you realizing it (something like LSD in your food or drink, for example). These drugs can make you hear voices or see monsters. Let's further say that under the influence of the drug you push someone you believe to be a monster attacking you off a balcony thereby killing them.

What should your punishment be? Would you "forfeit your right to live in society"?

I would argue that your degree of responsibility for your drug induced craziness is about the same as that of the German woman for her craziness caused by schizophrenia: very close to zero.

Again. Apples and Oranges.

If I was FORCED to take a drug..against my will...or without my knowledge. I would not be responsible for my actions.

Do you think the woman CHOSE to have schizophrenia? Is she more responsible for her actions than you are?

Originally posted by egamble:

The key difference? The effects would be temporary. If I was permanently bent out of reality..I would prefer to be put out of my misery.

These insane people...can have medication..yes...but we see story after story after story of these people stopping their meds and murdering the next door neighbor.

We are talking about responsibility and punishment for actions here. Yes, there is the difference that one state is temporary and the other probably permanent. This has an effect on the subsequent protection of the society, I understand that. However, for the punishment only responsibility should be taken into account, right? If you want to take the analogy closer to the original case, let's assume that the drugs induce permanent brain damage and leave you crazy even afterwards.

What should your punishment be? Would you "forfeit your right to live in society"? You killed someone.
08/15/2008 02:45:19 PM · #329
Originally posted by Sam94720:



Originally posted by egamble:

The key difference? The effects would be temporary. If I was permanently bent out of reality..I would prefer to be put out of my misery.

These insane people...can have medication..yes...but we see story after story after story of these people stopping their meds and murdering the next door neighbor.

We are talking about responsibility and punishment for actions here. Yes, there is the difference that one state is temporary and the other probably permanent. This has an effect on the subsequent protection of the society, I understand that. However, for the punishment only responsibility should be taken into account, right? If you want to take the analogy closer to the original case, let's assume that the drugs induce permanent brain damage and leave you crazy even afterwards.

What should your punishment be? Would you "forfeit your right to live in society"? You killed someone.


Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem?

I answered your question in my last post.

Originally posted by egamble:

If I was permanently bent out of reality..I would prefer to be put out of my misery.


Message edited by author 2008-08-15 14:45:47.
08/15/2008 02:47:52 PM · #330
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by egamble:

...but we see story after story after story of these people stopping their meds and murdering the next door neighbor.

Really? Show us five. Should be fairly easy.


I will give you five examples if you apologize for the ignorance of your last post.
I don't put words into your mouth, I expect the same out of somebody that appears to be intelligent.

Message edited by author 2008-08-15 14:50:49.
08/15/2008 02:47:55 PM · #331
Originally posted by egamble:

Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem?

Probably as chronic as your politeness deficit disorder.
08/15/2008 02:49:49 PM · #332
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by egamble:

Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem?

Probably as chronic as your politeness deficit disorder.


Ditto.

I am polite to those that return the favor. I don't think asking for an answer..and then not takign the time to actually read that answer are polite in the least.

Both of you appear to want people to automatically want people to sway over to your point of view. I am not going to do that.
I have also not asked YOU , togtog, or the other fellow (his name escapes me at the moment) to join me in my opinion. I only give my response and wait for the next part of the conversation.


Message edited by author 2008-08-15 14:52:40.
08/15/2008 02:50:31 PM · #333
FIVE KILLED

Message edited by author 2008-08-15 14:53:27.
08/15/2008 02:51:06 PM · #334
Originally posted by egamble:

Just watched your clip.

It might work for a small country like Norway.

But, in my opinion, it wouldn't be feasible in a population as diverse and large as the US population is.

Let us put the differences between these two countries into a very simple distinction.

Norway has a census record of 4,777,100 in their country. (according to wikipedia)
New York CITY (CITY) alone has 8,274,527. (according to wikipedia)

And your video only showed a predominance of 'white' people. I think the group chemistry might be a little different if you had a 'blood' from California, mixed in with 'Crypt' from NY, mixed in with a Mexican Mafia Member from Texas, and a KKK member from Alabama.

I am sure that the magick of the rainbow might win some of them over. But these are peope that will kill you because of the color of clothes that you wear, the color of your skin, and/or for walking on the wrong side of the street.

I don't think that the overall population of a country has an effect on the experiences of the inmates in such a camp. Yes, it might be difficult in the US to set something like this up for each and every prisoner. But you could try something on a small level, in one city for example. If it's successful, you might want to replicate it somewhere else.

Yes, the US has a more diverse society, that's clear. Yes, the group chemistry would be different. But the general idea of sending inmates to a special camp for the last months of their sentence where they have more freedom combined with more responsibility and where they learn the value of friendship, trust, hard work, etc. might still work. Details will have to be adjusted, I'm aware of that. (P.S.: The article provides more insight if you are interested in further information.)
08/15/2008 02:56:30 PM · #335
Originally posted by egamble:

Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem?

I answered your question in my last post.

So if the drug's effect was only temporary you would deny any responsiblity and not want to be punished.

And in the case of the permanent craziness you would want to be killed.

Do you agree that your degree of responsibility and that of the woman suffering from schizophrenia are the same? Let's say she doesn't wish to be killed as you do. What should we do with her? Should we kill her anyways? Should we incarcerate her? Should we be nice to her if we do the latter?
08/15/2008 02:57:07 PM · #336
Originally posted by egamble:

Both of you appear to want people to automatically want people to sway over to your point of view. I am not going to do that.
I have also not asked YOU , togtog, or the other fellow (his name escapes me at the moment) to join me in my opinion. I only give my response and wait for the next part of the conversation.

If only that were true.

I for one don't want people to be swayed over to my point of view. That's nonsense. No way to conduct a civil argument.

What I do expect is that when a contrary opinion is offered, anyone caring to respond does not take offence simply because it's a contrary opinion, people stick to the facts, and personal opinions on the private lives of those disagreeing stay well out of the conversation.

Arguing is a dying art. Let's not drive the stake in further by acting like a bunch of eight year olds. Stay out of a civil discussion if you can't help but get your hackles raised to the high heavens simply because somebody disagrees -- even vehemently, yet not straying from the seminal points -- with your particular view.
08/15/2008 02:57:33 PM · #337
Originally posted by Sam94720:


I don't think that the overall population of a country has an effect on the experiences of the inmates in such a camp. Yes, it might be difficult in the US to set something like this up for each and every prisoner. But you could try something on a small level, in one city for example. If it's successful, you might want to replicate it somewhere else.

Yes, the US has a more diverse society, that's clear. Yes, the group chemistry would be different. But the general idea of sending inmates to a special camp for the last months of their sentence where they have more freedom combined with more responsibility and where they learn the value of friendship, trust, hard work, etc. might still work. Details will have to be adjusted, I'm aware of that. (P.S.: The article provides more insight if you are interested in further information.)


I will read the article.

I stil don't think it will work. Have you ever met a real gang banger? These people 'reform' while they are in jail..and are back to killing after they get out.

There is even a story, i can't find it at the moment, of a person joining the Marine Corp....(I am sure you would agree they learn the value of trust, hardwork..comradarie..etc) and yet he still murdered two police officers after he was out of the Corp..during a store robbery.....(gang related)

These things don't always work.
08/15/2008 02:59:35 PM · #338
Originally posted by Louis:



I for one don't want people to be swayed over to my point of view. That's nonsense. No way to conduct a civil argument.

What I do expect is that when a contrary opinion is offered, anyone caring to respond does not take offence simply because it's a contrary opinion, people stick to the facts, and personal opinions on the private lives of those disagreeing stay well out of the conversation.

Arguing is a dying art. Let's not drive the stake in further by acting like a bunch of eight year olds. Stay out of a civil discussion if you can't help but get your hackles raised to the high heavens simply because somebody disagrees -- even vehemently, yet not straying from the seminal points -- with your particular view.


Yes, arguementation is a dying art. You do not seem to be participating in its revival.

A 'civil arguement' isn't one where you completely come out of left field with your accusations against Christianity and assumptions that I support Bush. We can only stay with the realm of a 'civilized discussion' if you have the brain capacity to stay on point and not to stray (for unknown reasons) into unrelated points.

Message edited by author 2008-08-15 15:00:41.
08/15/2008 03:00:48 PM · #339
I read something the other day about belief systems. A study showed that many religious people believe that other people believe in a religion unthinkingly as a consequence of being taught/growing up with it. However, they tended to believe that they themselves came to the religion through reason and rationalism.

There is a disconnect between people's confidence in their own minds against the capability of others.

The same thing happens here in this debate. A number of the posters seem to believe that there are such things as "criminals" who are a different class of human being - a class of people with an innate and simpleminded desire to break the law and whose rights are forfeit.

Undoubtedly there are some dangerous people out there whose "wiring" is broken and who need to be put away for a long time for the protection of the public. However, most law-breakers are no different to any of the people here except usually for having been subject to a difficult set of circumstances, having made some bad choices, and been caught.

I daresay that every single poster on this board has broken a significant law or two from time to time, and most of them have gotten away with it. No-one has become a criminal mastermind, and society has not become an intolerable disaster zone as a consequence. If asked, most people would rationalise away their own crimes while decrying those of the others.
08/15/2008 03:02:30 PM · #340
Originally posted by egamble:

...if you have the brain capacity...

To wit.
08/15/2008 03:04:32 PM · #341
Originally posted by egamble:

These things don't always work.

I agree. But even if just a fraction of those who will be released one day anyway become better people in such a camp it's worthwhile (as you might have read, it's even cheaper to run than a normal prison).
08/15/2008 03:07:46 PM · #342
Originally posted by SDW:

Originally posted by Incarcerated forever:


I have been beat beyond recognition, raped, and placed in a cell so small I can̢۪t even turn around if I could. I can̢۪t even catch my breath, they don̢۪t let me visit my family, and I don̢۪t get the chance to go out in the yard for one-hour of exercise during the day. My cell has no light so I just lay in the dark; at least I have a soft bed. I wish I could be back in society once again. I̢۪m to young to be in this prison, but I̢۪m here forever; why can̢۪t I get a second chance?


Now that a bad prison to be in, wouldn't you agree?


WOW! Was my post deleted??? I don't see it!

Where is the compassion for this inmate?
What punishment should the the person that put them in this prison be?

Message edited by author 2008-08-15 15:10:48.
08/15/2008 03:10:17 PM · #343
Originally posted by Sam94720:

Originally posted by egamble:

Just watched your clip.

It might work for a small country like Norway.

But, in my opinion, it wouldn't be feasible in a population as diverse and large as the US population is.

Let us put the differences between these two countries into a very simple distinction.

Norway has a census record of 4,777,100 in their country. (according to wikipedia)
New York CITY (CITY) alone has 8,274,527. (according to wikipedia)

And your video only showed a predominance of 'white' people. I think the group chemistry might be a little different if you had a 'blood' from California, mixed in with 'Crypt' from NY, mixed in with a Mexican Mafia Member from Texas, and a KKK member from Alabama.

I am sure that the magick of the rainbow might win some of them over. But these are peope that will kill you because of the color of clothes that you wear, the color of your skin, and/or for walking on the wrong side of the street.

I don't think that the overall population of a country has an effect on the experiences of the inmates in such a camp. Yes, it might be difficult in the US to set something like this up for each and every prisoner. But you could try something on a small level, in one city for example. If it's successful, you might want to replicate it somewhere else.

Yes, the US has a more diverse society, that's clear. Yes, the group chemistry would be different. But the general idea of sending inmates to a special camp for the last months of their sentence where they have more freedom combined with more responsibility and where they learn the value of friendship, trust, hard work, etc. might still work. Details will have to be adjusted, I'm aware of that. (P.S.: The article provides more insight if you are interested in further information.)


I read the article. I might see this working for non-violent offenders. If they were sent to a camp like this BEFORE....actually being integrated with the hard core, violent criminals...we might stop reoffending on their parts. But I don't see it rehabilitating people who have been in gangs...since 8 years old....and have raped, robbed and murdered for their 'family' to suddenly turn their backs on it because they got to work on a farm.

But I will agree it could help in the non-violent offenders population...before they were mixed into the 'criminal colleges' and learned how to bring even more destruction to our society.

happy?
08/15/2008 03:11:36 PM · #344
Originally posted by Matthew:

I read something the other day about belief systems. A study showed that many religious people believe that other people believe in a religion unthinkingly as a consequence of being taught/growing up with it. However, they tended to believe that they themselves came to the religion through reason and rationalism.



What about those that convert from the religion of their upbringing?

It happened to me. It has happend to alot of people.
08/15/2008 03:11:55 PM · #345
Your post is there. It's an appeal to pity, which isn't really a strong argument, failing, as it does, to address any of the points brought up concerning the Norwegian example.
08/15/2008 03:13:56 PM · #346
Originally posted by Matthew:


The same thing happens here in this debate. A number of the posters seem to believe that there are such things as "criminals" who are a different class of human being - a class of people with an innate and simpleminded desire to break the law and whose rights are forfeit.

Undoubtedly there are some dangerous people out there whose "wiring" is broken and who need to be put away for a long time for the protection of the public. However, most law-breakers are no different to any of the people here except usually for having been subject to a difficult set of circumstances, having made some bad choices, and been caught.

I daresay that every single poster on this board has broken a significant law or two from time to time, and most of them have gotten away with it. No-one has become a criminal mastermind, and society has not become an intolerable disaster zone as a consequence. If asked, most people would rationalise away their own crimes while decrying those of the others.


I have broken no 'significant' law. (EDIT, man made law..I have broken most of God's law)

I agree, I might have not stopped completely at a stop sign....or I might have accidently went over the speed limit...(I doubt it, My wife complains that I drive like a grandfather)...but I have not broken any laws that would put people's lives in danger.

I even pay my 'day fee' when I we go to the local park.

Message edited by author 2008-08-15 15:16:23.
08/15/2008 03:14:53 PM · #347
Originally posted by Louis:

Your post is there. It's an appeal to pity, which isn't really a strong argument, failing, as it does, to address any of the points brought up concerning the Norwegian example.

It's not an appeal to pity. I did watch the Norwegian 3 min. video and it does have something to do with it. Why do you say its pity??
08/15/2008 03:15:56 PM · #348
Originally posted by Matthew:


Undoubtedly there are some dangerous people out there whose "wiring" is broken and who need to be put away for a long time for the protection of the public. However, most law-breakers are no different to any of the people here except usually for having been subject to a difficult set of circumstances, having made some bad choices, and been caught.


They give up their rights to live in society..when they take it upon themselves to take away a person's inherent rights gauranteed by that society.

Message edited by author 2008-08-15 15:16:44.
08/15/2008 03:17:15 PM · #349
Originally posted by SDW:

Originally posted by Louis:

Your post is there. It's an appeal to pity, which isn't really a strong argument, failing, as it does, to address any of the points brought up concerning the Norwegian example.

It's not an appeal to pity. I did watch the Norwegian 3 min. video and it does have something to do with it. Why do you say its pity??

What you posted is intended to evoke pity in the reader for the "prisoner", without you having to address any of the actual points being made. It's not in itself a stated position that anyone can counter.
08/15/2008 03:20:01 PM · #350
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by SDW:

Originally posted by Louis:

Your post is there. It's an appeal to pity, which isn't really a strong argument, failing, as it does, to address any of the points brought up concerning the Norwegian example.

It's not an appeal to pity. I did watch the Norwegian 3 min. video and it does have something to do with it. Why do you say its pity??

What you posted is intended to evoke pity in the reader for the "prisoner", without you having to address any of the actual points being made. It's not in itself a stated position that anyone can counter.


SDW. Louis is right.
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