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08/14/2008 01:35:18 PM · #251 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
C. Dole out the punishment as spelled out in the law? |
What's the punishment as prescribed by law? |
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08/14/2008 01:46:56 PM · #252 |
See edit above. I added the penalty.
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by kenskid:
C. Dole out the punishment as spelled out in the law? |
What's the punishment as prescribed by law? |
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08/14/2008 01:57:34 PM · #253 |
It is hypocritical to outlaw the "cruel" treatment of animals when more often than not the treatment to animals used for food is "worse".
Therefore it will be difficult to "educate" those who cockfight into "proper" treatment of animals. If such food processing was outlawed it would be much more reasonable to try to reach a sense of sympathy in those who would otherwise engage in such practices.
So I vote A+, nothing and let it continue. If felt strongly enough about, work to end "cruel" treatment of animals on a much larger scale. "Educate" those who are involved. Work from there.
The reason I am quoting certain words is because I as others am not completely convinced that animals are capable of comprehending such suffering or their treatment in any way that we as humans would relate to such suffering. |
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08/14/2008 02:07:04 PM · #254 |
You're probably right on the comprehending suffering. While it may be a reflex for an animal to fear pain they do not know that what they are doing may get the killed. They don't know the concept of death. But I think they still feel pain...in fact I'm sure they do.
This may be off my post sub-topic but did you know that Humans are the only animals that know that sex leads to offspring? No other animal knows this. They simply do it because it feels good.
Originally posted by togtog:
It is hypocritical to outlaw the "cruel" treatment of animals when more often than not the treatment to animals used for food is "worse".
Therefore it will be difficult to "educate" those who cockfight into "proper" treatment of animals. If such food processing was outlawed it would be much more reasonable to try to reach a sense of sympathy in those who would otherwise engage in such practices.
So I vote A+, nothing and let it continue. If felt strongly enough about, work to end "cruel" treatment of animals on a much larger scale. "Educate" those who are involved. Work from there.
The reason I am quoting certain words is because I as others am not completely convinced that animals are capable of comprehending such suffering or their treatment in any way that we as humans would relate to such suffering. |
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08/14/2008 02:20:31 PM · #255 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
[...]This may be off my post sub-topic but did you know that Humans are the only animals that know that sex leads to offspring? No other animal knows this. They simply do it because it feels good. [...] |
Might be wrong but...... I believe dolphins are the only other animals to have sex for fun (not sure about the whale variety). The rest is some variation of on heat. If true then on some level they know it's for offspring. Now there is a google topic for someone keen, but I suggest not a from work topic and be very careful clicking on any links... extra careful of mixing google terms like sex and animals :-)
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08/14/2008 02:23:13 PM · #256 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
This Friday Louisiana will outlaw Cockfighting. (Two roosters with blades on their feet fighting to the death). People hold the fights and bet on the outcome and it is legal.
Many here say that after Friday, cockfighting will continue but move "underground" and into the darkness.
Cockfighting exploits and hurts chickens. It will obviously continue.
What should be done if anyone is caught fighting their cock?
A. Nothing and let the cock fight continue.
B. Stop the cock fight and disperse the crowd but don't arrest the participants.
C. Dole out the punishment as spelled out in the law?
Current penalty is:
First-time offenders caught participating in cockfights will face maximum $1,000 fines and six-month prison terms.
So I would say they may get as little as probation and smaller fines for first timers. |
Obviously there is money to be made from cockfights. If you don't want cockfights to take place, just make sure that the fine times the probability of getting caught is higher than the profits to be made. It'll ruin the business model. Problem solved.
I don't think sending offenders to prison makes much sense. They pose no danger to other people and would only raise costs.
(And no, please don't answer something like "Ha! Suddenly you advocate punishment! Hypocrite!". What I'm concerned about is the corporal and psychological punishment in prisons and the state in which former inmates leave prison.) |
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08/14/2008 02:25:05 PM · #257 |
Originally posted by robs:
I believe dolphins are the only other animals to have sex for fun |
I believe chimps and other primates exhibit behaviour that could be characterized as the pursuit of sexual pleasure. |
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08/14/2008 02:30:02 PM · #258 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
This may be off my post sub-topic but did you know that Humans are the only animals that know that sex leads to offspring? No other animal knows this. They simply do it because it feels good. |
And how do we know this? And how would you know that animals don't know about death? Some link to ponder
The list of things we believe to be unique to humans keeps getting shorter and shorter... |
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08/14/2008 02:30:33 PM · #259 |
Yes humans have sex for fun as well as dolphins. But lets says "fun" is the same as "feels good".
So then all animals do it because it feels good. If it felt bad I think we would have less of "that" animal.
As far as "babies" are concerned. I can't imagine that any animal knows that what they do "today" will bring about a baby in weeks, months or even years after the "deed". And they surely can't put 2 and 2 together after the baby is born. But....I may be wrong.
Originally posted by robs:
Originally posted by kenskid:
[...]This may be off my post sub-topic but did you know that Humans are the only animals that know that sex leads to offspring? No other animal knows this. They simply do it because it feels good. [...] |
Might be wrong but...... I believe dolphins are the only other animals to have sex for fun (not sure about the whale variety). The rest is some variation of on heat. If true then on some level they know it's for offspring. Now there is a google topic for someone keen, but I suggest not a from work topic and be very careful clicking on any links... extra careful of mixing google terms like sex and animals :-) |
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08/14/2008 02:31:36 PM · #260 |
The cock simply DOES NOT KNOW that fighting will lead to it's death. Now if you want to say that after he gets his ass kicked and he is bleeding he knows...then I guess I can't argue. However, does the animal know "death"? Does it know the finality of death?
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
This may be off my post sub-topic but did you know that Humans are the only animals that know that sex leads to offspring? No other animal knows this. They simply do it because it feels good. |
And how do we know this? And how would you know that animals don't know about death? Some link to ponder
The list of things we believe to be unique to humans keeps getting shorter and shorter... |
Message edited by author 2008-08-14 14:34:10. |
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08/14/2008 02:36:47 PM · #261 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by robs:
I believe dolphins are the only other animals to have sex for fun |
I believe chimps and other primates exhibit behaviour that could be characterized as the pursuit of sexual pleasure. |
I guess so, yes: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwegzhXAqaQ (not meant for the kids. And please consider this warning:
(and these, too, just in general) |
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08/14/2008 02:38:08 PM · #262 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
The cock simply DOES NOT KNOW that fighting will lead to it's death. Now if you want to say that after he gets his ass kicked and he is bleeding he knows...then I guess I can't argue. However, does the animal know "death"? Does it know the finality of death? |
How do you know what the cock is thinking?
This is so off topic, things are getting out of hand here... |
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08/14/2008 02:40:06 PM · #263 |
I wanted to clarify what I meant by comprehending suffering.
If I open my PC right now and yank the wire going to one of the fans, an alarm will sound, the computer may even shut off. Someone who does not understand what a computer is, could see this as hurting and killing it. However the computer has no thoughts on the matter, it simply knows something is wrong and is trying to protect itself and its user from harm. |
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08/14/2008 02:41:13 PM · #264 |
Dude...you hit a brick wall now. A chicken doesn't know what death is. It doesn't know that if another chicken pecks his heart out it will lead to his permanant unconsciencness (sp?).
It doesn't know that if the blade on the other rooster's foot cuts his head off it will lead to DEATH.
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
The cock simply DOES NOT KNOW that fighting will lead to it's death. Now if you want to say that after he gets his ass kicked and he is bleeding he knows...then I guess I can't argue. However, does the animal know "death"? Does it know the finality of death? |
How do you know what the cock is thinking?
This is so off topic, things are getting out of hand here... |
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08/14/2008 02:43:56 PM · #265 |
Did you says the computer "knows" something is wrong and is trying to protect itself? You must have an Apple everyone says is so great! ;-)
Originally posted by togtog:
I wanted to clarify what I meant by comprehending suffering.
If I open my PC right now and yank the wire going to one of the fans, an alarm will sound, the computer may even shut off. Someone who does not understand what a computer is, could see this as hurting and killing it. However the computer has no thoughts on the matter, it simply knows something is wrong and is trying to protect itself and its user from harm. |
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08/14/2008 02:46:04 PM · #266 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Dude...you hit a brick wall now. A chicken doesn't know what death is. It doesn't know that if another chicken pecks his heart out it will lead to his permanant unconsciencness (sp?). |
How do you know what the chicken is thinking? People have made many claims about animals (they feel no pain, they have no consciousness, they merely act based on instinct, they have no memory, they don't build tools, etc.) that turned out to be wrong. I don't know how you'd go about finding out whether a chicken knows about death.
Message edited by author 2008-08-14 14:47:52. |
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08/14/2008 02:47:36 PM · #267 |
Keep banging your head on that wall.
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Dude...you hit a brick wall now. A chicken doesn't know what death is. It doesn't know that if another chicken pecks his heart out it will lead to his permanant unconsciencness (sp?). |
How do you know what the chicken is thinking? People have made many claims about animals (they feel no pain, the have no consciousness, they merely act based on instinct, they have no memory, they don't build tools, etc.) that turned out to be wrong. I don't know how you'd go about finding out whether a chicken knows about death. |
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08/14/2008 02:50:00 PM · #268 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Keep banging your head on that wall. |
Repeating a statement several times does not make it true. And a comment like this one has no place in a civilized discussion. If you don't want to explain how you obtained intimate knowledge of chicken thought processes I think we should abandon this side discussion and return to the main issue. |
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08/14/2008 02:58:21 PM · #269 |
Ok brick wall...
Experiment:
Get two normal chickens that lived a normal life in the wild or on a farm.
Put one chicken in a glass "cage" where he can see you.
Take the other chicken and calmly pick him up.
Lay his head on the table and cut his head off.
Lay the dead chicken in the glass cage by the living chicken.
I'll bet you that the living chicken will let you pick him up and lay his head on the exact same table that you cut his buddy's head of on. And the chicken will lay there just like the first one and let you cut his head off.
The chicken knows nothing about death and what happend to his buddy.
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Keep banging your head on that wall. |
Repeating a statement several times does not make it true. And a comment like this one has no place in a civilized discussion. If you don't want to explain how you obtained intimate knowledge of chicken thought processes I think we should abandon this side discussion and return to the main issue. |
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08/14/2008 03:01:38 PM · #270 |
I have a 4 year biology degree. No it doesn't mean I have "intimate knowledge of chicken thought processes" but I did learn that a chicken doesn't know he is about to croak when the colonel comes calling.
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Keep banging your head on that wall. |
Repeating a statement several times does not make it true. And a comment like this one has no place in a civilized discussion. If you don't want to explain how you obtained intimate knowledge of chicken thought processes I think we should abandon this side discussion and return to the main issue. |
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08/14/2008 03:09:26 PM · #271 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Ok brick wall...
Experiment:
Get two normal chickens that lived a normal life in the wild or on a farm.
Put one chicken in a glass "cage" where he can see you.
Take the other chicken and calmly pick him up.
Lay his head on the table and cut his head off.
Lay the dead chicken in the glass cage by the living chicken.
I'll bet you that the living chicken will let you pick him up and lay his head on the exact same table that you cut his buddy's head of on. And the chicken will lay there just like the first one and let you cut his head off.
The chicken knows nothing about death and what happend to his buddy. |
We have people on death row. You can put one of them in a glass cage where he can see you. Then you calmly lead another prisoner to the electric chair and kill him. Put the dead body in the cage to the other prisoner. I'll bet you that the living prisoner will let you lead him to the chair and kill him the same way. The prisoner knows nothing about death and what happened to his buddy.
You see, maybe the chicken just knows that resistance is futile. It may very well be true that the chicken does not understand what's about to happen to it. But I don't know how you could ever be certain. Ok, let's get back to the main topic now, shall we? |
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08/14/2008 04:12:59 PM · #272 |
You are in complete denial ! You simply can't be serious with your last reply !!?!?!
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Ok brick wall...
Experiment:
Get two normal chickens that lived a normal life in the wild or on a farm.
Put one chicken in a glass "cage" where he can see you.
Take the other chicken and calmly pick him up.
Lay his head on the table and cut his head off.
Lay the dead chicken in the glass cage by the living chicken.
I'll bet you that the living chicken will let you pick him up and lay his head on the exact same table that you cut his buddy's head of on. And the chicken will lay there just like the first one and let you cut his head off.
The chicken knows nothing about death and what happend to his buddy. |
We have people on death row. You can put one of them in a glass cage where he can see you. Then you calmly lead another prisoner to the electric chair and kill him. Put the dead body in the cage to the other prisoner. I'll bet you that the living prisoner will let you lead him to the chair and kill him the same way. The prisoner knows nothing about death and what happened to his buddy.
You see, maybe the chicken just knows that resistance is futile. It may very well be true that the chicken does not understand what's about to happen to it. But I don't know how you could ever be certain. Ok, let's get back to the main topic now, shall we? |
Message edited by author 2008-08-14 16:14:20. |
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08/14/2008 04:17:46 PM · #273 |
I must agree with kenskid, Sam, you are in complete denial. I can't even respond to your last comment because it was so ridiculous.
Originally posted by kenskid:
You are in complete denial ! You simply can't be serious with your last reply !!?!?!
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Ok brick wall...
Experiment:
Get two normal chickens that lived a normal life in the wild or on a farm.
Put one chicken in a glass "cage" where he can see you.
Take the other chicken and calmly pick him up.
Lay his head on the table and cut his head off.
Lay the dead chicken in the glass cage by the living chicken.
I'll bet you that the living chicken will let you pick him up and lay his head on the exact same table that you cut his buddy's head of on. And the chicken will lay there just like the first one and let you cut his head off.
The chicken knows nothing about death and what happend to his buddy. |
We have people on death row. You can put one of them in a glass cage where he can see you. Then you calmly lead another prisoner to the electric chair and kill him. Put the dead body in the cage to the other prisoner. I'll bet you that the living prisoner will let you lead him to the chair and kill him the same way. The prisoner knows nothing about death and what happened to his buddy.
You see, maybe the chicken just knows that resistance is futile. It may very well be true that the chicken does not understand what's about to happen to it. But I don't know how you could ever be certain. Ok, let's get back to the main topic now, shall we? |
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08/14/2008 04:20:22 PM · #274 |
The chicken doesn't know anything because it is a dumb animal! That's the difference between humans and animals. That's why chickens don't have an economy and restaurants name 'Popeyes' people and biscuits!!!!!
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Originally posted by kenskid:
Ok brick wall...
Experiment:
Get two normal chickens that lived a normal life in the wild or on a farm.
Put one chicken in a glass "cage" where he can see you.
Take the other chicken and calmly pick him up.
Lay his head on the table and cut his head off.
Lay the dead chicken in the glass cage by the living chicken.
I'll bet you that the living chicken will let you pick him up and lay his head on the exact same table that you cut his buddy's head of on. And the chicken will lay there just like the first one and let you cut his head off.
The chicken knows nothing about death and what happend to his buddy. |
We have people on death row. You can put one of them in a glass cage where he can see you. Then you calmly lead another prisoner to the electric chair and kill him. Put the dead body in the cage to the other prisoner. I'll bet you that the living prisoner will let you lead him to the chair and kill him the same way. The prisoner knows nothing about death and what happened to his buddy.
You see, maybe the chicken just knows that resistance is futile. It may very well be true that the chicken does not understand what's about to happen to it. But I don't know how you could ever be certain. Ok, let's get back to the main topic now, shall we? |
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08/14/2008 04:25:16 PM · #275 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
You are in complete denial ! You simply can't be serious with your last reply !!?!?! |
Maybe the chicken calmly accepts its fate because it believes it is going to a better place.
It's extremely difficult if not impossible to find out what another being is thinking if you have only limited means of communication or none at all. |
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