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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> why THIS bible passage at a grad?
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 05/10/2008 10:10:10 PM · #1
So... though yes, I am an admitted atheist I am not trying to start a religious debate. So please don't hijack my thread. This more about general life views that bother me, of our society and not just Christians. But it was so well put with this passage.

I'm posting because I worked at a college graduation today and was pretty appalled at the passage that was read. It was a Christian college so the speeches were all religious in nature, which I had no problem with. On the contrary the main speaker for the morning, and the one for the afternoon grad, had 2 of the best student speeches I've ever heard. They were positive, uplifting, and if I cut out the religious context for myself personally, I could relate to them very much.

Then another speaker came up to read a passage from Matthew. The bulk of which can be read here:

Matthew 25: 20-31

What I took from this is the master was a thief, but the servant gets the gnashing of teeth?

Moral of the story; The rich get richer and the poor get poorer (and apparently wailing and gnashing of teeth, which is said a lot in matthew as I searched for the passage and found several with the same phrase).

CONGRATULATIONS CLASS OF 2008!!!!

What? I'm am still spinning from how much that one threw me... Again. I'm not saying don't read passages, I'm saying, what on Earth made who ever it was decided in the hundred of pages to pick this part?

Edited to fix link name. :)

Message edited by author 2008-05-11 12:25:57.
 05/10/2008 10:16:32 PM · #2
Originally posted by escapetooz:
... what on Earth made who ever it was decided in the hundred of pages to pick this part?

Uh, perhaps an attempt to describe current trends in the world social order?
 05/10/2008 10:20:12 PM · #3
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
... what on Earth made who ever it was decided in the hundred of pages to pick this part?

Uh, perhaps an attempt to describe current trends in the world social order?


Haha... well that's exactly it. It seems that the world is like that, and I thought that is the opposite of what a good christian (and person in general) is supposed to aspire to. Are we not supposed to help the poor? Not take what they have and kick them to the curb (though I'm aware that IS what we do.)

There was just no intro or conclusion. It was just the straight passage with no attempt at explanation. If you didn't listen to the words, and just listened to the tone of the speaker, it sounded as though it was meant to be inspirational.

I just don't get it...

ETA: For example, when the speaker said "wailing and gnashing of teeth" it sounded like the tone in which you'd say something like "I ate a nice slice of pie".

Message edited by author 2008-05-10 22:22:02.
 05/10/2008 10:26:28 PM · #4
Basically, the verse is saying make the most of the opportunities given to you. Be profitable.

Actually a very good graduation message.
 05/10/2008 10:40:03 PM · #5
Well, the passage you list is Matthew 25, not Matthew 20. My bad. That's what I started to reference since that's what you had typed on there (I didn't read the link).

This is a parable that starts in Matthew 25:14, and compares the kingdom of heaven with a man going on a journey and entrusting his property to servants. It makes more sense if you read it all together.

Message edited by author 2008-05-10 22:46:29.
 05/10/2008 10:40:24 PM · #6
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Basically, the verse is saying make the most of the opportunities given to you. Be profitable.

Actually a very good graduation message.


Hmmm. I see that part but I still don't think it is a good message. Especially with the master stealing from other people.
 05/10/2008 10:53:13 PM · #7
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Basically, the verse is saying make the most of the opportunities given to you. Be profitable.

Actually a very good graduation message.


Hmmm. I see that part but I still don't think it is a good message. Especially with the master stealing from other people.


I don't see the master stealing from anyone in that passage. It's always clear that they are HIS funds, entrusted to the care of those people while away. When he returns he asks what they did with it. He then takes back his and gives it to the other.
 05/10/2008 11:54:22 PM · #8
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Basically, the verse is saying make the most of the opportunities given to you. Be profitable.

Actually a very good graduation message.


Hmmm. I see that part but I still don't think it is a good message. Especially with the master stealing from other people.


If you read the full parable to provide more context, starting from verse 14, it will hopefully make more sense. Given that it was a Christian college, they probably assumed that the listeners all knew the context so didn't need the entire passage read. (Not always a valid/good assumption! There could well have been other people besides you who would have been similarly confused - students, friends/family of students, etc.)

The passage isn't about "the more stuff (money, skills, abilities) you've got, the better you are", it's about making use of what you've got and not wasting it. The servant trusted with two talents started and ended with less than the servant trusted with five talents, but they both made good use of what they'd been given and received the same reward. If the servant trusted with one talent had made good use of it they would have been rewarded in the same way.

This story could be understood on several different levels, for example:
- People with more to start with might expect to achieve more and hence be rewarded more. But God doesn't think like that. (For comparison, see Matthew 20:1-16 where the God-figure rewarded hired workers the same day's wage, whether they worked for him for a full day or only an hour.)
- People with less to start with might expect it doesn't matter what they do with what they've got, because the person who has more than they do will achieve better outcomes. But God doesn't think like that either. (For comparison, see Jesus' reaction to people giving offerings in Mark 12:41-44.)
- The things/skills we have aren't really "ours", they were given to us by God.

By the way, it'd be helpful if you edit your original post to change the text of the link to be "Matthew 25:20-31" for those people who look up a separate Bible rather than following the link.
05/11/2008 12:03:18 AM · #9
Like you, I'm also not Christian but did look at this a bit. I'm guessing that the full passage read was the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30.

Wikipedia has a decent article on the parable, including possible interpretations. It may help shed some light on the relevance of the passage to the graduation message (at least, it did for me).

~Terry
 05/11/2008 12:14:42 PM · #10
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Basically, the verse is saying make the most of the opportunities given to you. Be profitable.

Actually a very good graduation message.


Hmmm. I see that part but I still don't think it is a good message. Especially with the master stealing from other people.


I don't see the master stealing from anyone in that passage. It's always clear that they are HIS funds, entrusted to the care of those people while away. When he returns he asks what they did with it. He then takes back his and gives it to the other.


Not the talents. The harvesting where he has not sewn. Thats stealing other people's crops.
 05/11/2008 12:21:31 PM · #11
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Like you, I'm also not Christian but did look at this a bit. I'm guessing that the full passage read was the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30.

Wikipedia has a decent article on the parable, including possible interpretations. It may help shed some light on the relevance of the passage to the graduation message (at least, it did for me).

~Terry


The Herzog interpretation is pretty much exactly what I got from it, only he put it better of course. It made me very upset really. It's actually funny too because one of the student speeches was about swimming up stream and not taking the easy route and wanting more and better things and being selfish but to be caring and giving, and do your own thing... and then immediately after that they read the story of the talents. Which to me says the opposite.
 05/11/2008 12:27:53 PM · #12
Originally posted by paddles:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Basically, the verse is saying make the most of the opportunities given to you. Be profitable.

Actually a very good graduation message.


Hmmm. I see that part but I still don't think it is a good message. Especially with the master stealing from other people.


If you read the full parable to provide more context, starting from verse 14, it will hopefully make more sense. Given that it was a Christian college, they probably assumed that the listeners all knew the context so didn't need the entire passage read. (Not always a valid/good assumption! There could well have been other people besides you who would have been similarly confused - students, friends/family of students, etc.)

The passage isn't about "the more stuff (money, skills, abilities) you've got, the better you are", it's about making use of what you've got and not wasting it. The servant trusted with two talents started and ended with less than the servant trusted with five talents, but they both made good use of what they'd been given and received the same reward. If the servant trusted with one talent had made good use of it they would have been rewarded in the same way.

This story could be understood on several different levels, for example:
- People with more to start with might expect to achieve more and hence be rewarded more. But God doesn't think like that. (For comparison, see Matthew 20:1-16 where the God-figure rewarded hired workers the same day's wage, whether they worked for him for a full day or only an hour.)
- People with less to start with might expect it doesn't matter what they do with what they've got, because the person who has more than they do will achieve better outcomes. But God doesn't think like that either. (For comparison, see Jesus' reaction to people giving offerings in Mark 12:41-44.)
- The things/skills we have aren't really "ours", they were given to us by God.

By the way, it'd be helpful if you edit your original post to change the text of the link to be "Matthew 25:20-31" for those people who look up a separate Bible rather than following the link.


I guess I can see that. But I also really agree with the Herzog interpretation as summarized through the link for wikipedia given by Terry.

And I did fix the link. I swear I'm dyslexic sometimes (but I'm not?)... Sorry about that. :)
 05/11/2008 12:32:01 PM · #13
In the King James version the very beginning of the parable is as follows; you did not include the beginning in your referenced quote:

"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey."

Thus: in the parable, the "master" is a symbol, not a man. The parable is directed not especially subtly towards those servants of God (read priests) who attempt to keep God's love to themselves, who do not spread it around and help it multiply and benefit all me. That's the way I see it anyway :-)

R.
 05/15/2008 04:16:18 AM · #14
My understanding of this parable is that the talents are simply a measure of the knowledge of God that has been given each based on their respective amounts of faith. The gain that each has achieved (or not achieved) is the result of their acts in response to that knowledge. They were to spread the word of the Good news or Gospel and to share their knowledge thus acknowledging God before men and increasing the number of those saved. The one who had no gain therefore did not use the knowledge that he had of a Good, merciful, saving God to bring anyone else to that knowledge. It is an admonition that faith without works is dead. The one who had no gain did not acknowledge God before men and as such Jesus would not acknowledge or intercede for him with the Father. Without this then he cannot be saved and thus the gnashing of teeth. This parable is given in terms of human conduct and not Godly so the fact that the master 'steals' so to speak by harvesting where he does not sow merely speaks to the fact that God reaps the harvest (of souls) where he personally has not sown but where the followers of Jesus have spread the Gospel message.
 05/15/2008 08:17:03 AM · #15
It is possibly also worth realising that 'talent' in this context means an amount of money when it was originally written/told. (though this particular parable is also often quoted as the source for the alternative interpretation of talent as a skill)
 05/15/2008 09:01:52 AM · #16
very cool of you to research something that you've been very clear about not believing in - much respect

i think the parable is about money, not talent, as Gordon points out (although the same can be said about talent) ... but the parable does leave a gray area regarding what was expected from the 3 men. I believe that all of my possessions ultimately belong to God ... not me. I'm just in charge of handling God's property properly ... being generous and wise ... not hording it for myself.

Grad students have an obligation to God regarding what they have been given (an education). What they believe about life (or what they believe about God) will dictate what they do with that education. Stewardship.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
So... though yes, I am an admitted atheist I am not trying to start a religious debate.


Message edited by author 2008-05-15 09:02:37.
 05/15/2008 10:33:25 AM · #17
There is a commentary button on the page you linked in your OP. It has a pretty good explaination of this parable, about being industrious and making the most of what you are given in life. So I would agree that it is a pretty good graduation message. Like most things in the Bible or other ancient writings, they are not to be taken word-for-word, but rather by the general ideas that are put forth (not to mention most of these ancient languages do not translate well to English and have been translated and copied by hand thousands of times).

-drew

Edit to add: I do think that the speaker should have offered his explaination of the parable, not simply read the passage. It would help to explain the meaning behind him reading it at the graduation, and avoid confusion among audience members not familiar with this specific passage.

Originally posted by The webiste you linked:
The Industrious and the Lazy Managers
As in 24:45-51, readiness for Jesus' return here demands faithfulness in doing the work he has called us to do. This warning applies to all disciples, but perhaps most seriously to church leaders: "A Christian leader who does not lead is damned" (Meier 1980:300).

We have the opportunity to multiply what Christ has entrusted to us. Matthew seems to make a special point in noting that the master gave to each according to his ability--he already knew which slaves would be most industrious, but expected all to show some industry. In the Roman Empire slaves could earn wages and bonuses and acquire property (as in Apul. Metam. 10.13; Cohen 1966:179-278), hence they would have more incentive to look out for the master's property than slaves in many cultures do. Householders going on long journeys might entrust their estate to slaves to oversee (compare 24:45-51), since household slaves often held managerial roles (for example, Treggiari 1975:49). Thus the servants understood very well what was required of them.

Most people lacked capital, but those who had it could multiply their investment fivefold or even tenfold (Lk 19:16-18); doubling one's investment (Mt 25:20, 22) might be regarded as a reasonable minimum return in the ancient economy (Derrett 1970:24). Burying money (v. 18) kept the capital safe, but the money would have been no less safe with bankers (m. Baba Mesi`a 3:11; Gundry 1982:509).

Jesus promises eternal reward for those who prove worthy of his trust. The servants' rewards were commensurate with their faithfulness in pursuing the master's interest. Elsewhere we encounter the principle that one untrustworthy in what is his own will not be trustworthy in what concerns others (Lk 16:10-12; m. Demai 2:2); here we find the principle that only those proved in small leadership positions will be prepared for bigger ones (compare, for example, Ep. Arist. 264; t. Hagiga 2:9). In the context of the preceding parable (Mt 25:10), sharing the master's happiness probably connotes banqueting with the master.

Professed disciples who insult Christ's grace by neglecting his commission in this world are damned. But as in the preceding parable (25:12), the exclusion of the unfaithful, who insult their patron's trust in them, is explicit: it involves hell's darkness (8:12; 22:13) and wailing (22:13). When the lazy servant declares, "Here is your own money back!" he refuses to acknowledge responsibility, a responsibility he could have easily enough fulfilled. Having already failed the master's trust, he now proceeds to insult the master. He offers an excuse no master would have accepted: knowing the master's reputation for sternness, he was paralyzed with fear (25:24-25). He is like too many Christians so overwhelmed by the magnitude of God's task that we put off contributing anything to it. The master rightly responds, "On the assumption that I am indeed hard and merciless, you should have been all the more diligent!" (vv. 26-27).

Whereas the other servants are rewarded by the master's benevolence, this servant, fearing the master's harshness but unaware of his benevolence (compare Patte 1987:346), experiences the very wrath he feared. This, says Jesus, is what will happen to those who claim to be his followers but do not invest their lives in the work of the kingdom.


Message edited by author 2008-05-15 10:43:59.
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