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03/09/2004 02:50:18 PM · #351 |
Originally posted by louddog:
The Bible said slavery was okay. I agree it did not say you must own slaves, but it says it's okay. Obviously slavery is not okay. Even if you killed my dog, me taking you or your daughter as my slave is just wrong. Some religons may say slavery is acceptable and other countries may allow it, but I do not believe that you think slavery would be okay, even if it was legal. Thus, maybe the bible isn't always right. Maybe it's okay to disagree with the bible. I beleive that was the point being made. |
You have piqued my curiosity. I only have 4 versions of the Bible, and none of them say that "slavery is OK". Would you please be so kind as to tell me what version/interpretation of the Bible you are using as a reference, along with the Book, Chapter, and verse of that Bible that says "Slavery is OK", or any variation on those words. I'd like to research it a little more thoroughly.
Ron |
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03/09/2004 02:52:37 PM · #352 |
Originally posted by RonB:
You have piqued my curiosity. I only have 4 versions of the Bible, and none of them say that "slavery is OK". Would you please be so kind as to tell me what version/interpretation of the Bible you are using as a reference, along with the Book, Chapter, and verse of that Bible that says "Slavery is OK", or any variation on those words. I'd like to research it a little more thoroughly.
Ron |
You already responded to posts that had that precise information.
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03/09/2004 02:57:35 PM · #353 |
But just to save you looking
[NB - this is God speaking to Moses - so should be taken as the word of God I assume)
Exodus 21
1 ¶ And these are the judgments which you shall set before them.
2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years. And in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself. If he was married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my sons. I do not want to go out free
6 his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door or to the door-post. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall serve him forever.
7 And if a man sells his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no power to sell her to a strange nation, since he has dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her as with daughters.
Leviticus 25,
38 I am the LORD your God who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.
39 ¶ And if your brother who lives beside you has become poor, and is sold to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a bond-servant.
40 As a hired servant, as a temporary resident, he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the year of jubilee.
41 And he shall depart from you, he and his sons with him, and shall return to his own family. And he shall return to the possession of his fathers.
42 For they are My servants, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt. They shall not be sold as a slave.
43 You shall not rule over him with rigor, but shall fear your God.
44 Both your male slaves, and your female slaves whom you shall have, shall be of the nations that are all around you. You shall buy male slaves and female slaves from them.
45 And also you may buy of the sons of the tenants who are staying with you; and from their families that are with you, whom they fathered in your land. And they shall be your possession.
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03/09/2004 03:58:56 PM · #354 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"Your second coming is drooling in a staight jacket somewhere."
LOL
nice rant, partly true too ;) |
Partly true? Please, share with us some personal stories and fact [I said FACT, not what you heard at the pub the other night when talking to your equally atheist buddies] to back up these claims. So far, everything you guys have said was purely personal opinion based on some anger. Seriously, I'm not antagonizing you, I'm waiting........for my own curiosity. |
Please share with us some FACT that back up your claims that homosexuality makes god gag with anger and disgust. |
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03/09/2004 04:07:36 PM · #355 |
| Not to open up another can of worms, but I would like to know what peoople think of polygamy. |
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03/09/2004 04:08:32 PM · #356 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
But just to save you looking
[NB - this is God speaking to Moses - so should be taken as the word of God I assume)
Leviticus 25,
39 ¶ And if your brother who lives beside you has become poor, and is sold to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a bond-servant.
40 As a hired servant, as a temporary resident, he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the year of jubilee.
41 And he shall depart from you, he and his sons with him, and shall return to his own family. And he shall return to the possession of his fathers.
42 For they are My servants, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt. They shall not be sold as a slave.
43 You shall not rule over him with rigor, but shall fear your God.
44 Both your male slaves, and your female slaves whom you shall have, shall be of the nations that are all around you. You shall buy male slaves and female slaves from them.
45 And also you may buy of the sons of the tenants who are staying with you; and from their families that are with you, whom they fathered in your land. And they shall be your possession.[/i] |
Thanks, Gordon,
The Exodus passages deal with how to deal with slaves but do not deal with how one obtains or becomes a slave in the first place. Of the Leviticus passages, two are of importance: the first states that Israelites, themselves, were NOT to be bought/sold as slaves, though they could be indentured for a period not to exceed 7 year ( the maximum time until the next jubilee, at which time they were to be released from their indenture ); the second clearly states that slaves could only be bought from the heathen nations, or could be obtained if an alien ( heathen ) in Israel took it upon himself to sell himself into slavery. In either case, they would be heathen slaves. The term 'heathen' in this context means Gentile ( that is, not an Israelite ( Jew )).
After the jews rejected Christ as Messiah, God used the Apostle Paul to bring the good news of redemption to the Gentiles, and so they became "brothers" to the Jews, and no longer "heathen". Since the entire world had now been reconciled to God, through Christ, there were none eligible to be enslaved anymore, since none were heathen peoples.
So, yes, you are correct. The bible said that, at one time, slavery was OK. But not since Christ arrived.
Ron
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03/09/2004 04:15:16 PM · #357 |
| Where do I begin?? A Man's Penis was made to be inserted into the Female vagina!!!! As in the Male sperm enters the Female egg. Witch in turn makes another human being!!!!! If everyone was gay we would not survive as a Human Race!!! I belive that everyone has there own life, and can live it how they want to!!! If your GAY!!!!! Your Parents are too and didnt raise you right!!! |
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03/09/2004 04:20:47 PM · #358 |
Originally posted by RonB:
So, yes, you are correct. The bible said that, at one time, slavery was OK. But not since Christ arrived.
Ron |
So, in principle, things change over time, and the bible isn't always the ultimate answer on everything. That's good to know.
But I guess, my main question is what does any of this religious discussion have to do with civil unions of same sex partners ?
I'm sure there was some separation of church and state that I heard mention of, once upon a time.
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03/09/2004 04:21:46 PM · #359 |
Originally posted by A Weaver:
Where do I begin?? A Man's Penis was made to be inserted into the Female vagina!!!! As in the Male sperm enters the Female egg. Witch in turn makes another human being!!!!! If everyone was gay we would not survive as a Human Race!!! I belive that everyone has there own life, and can live it how they want to!!! If your GAY!!!!! Your Parents are too and didnt raise you right!!! |
Terry Pratchett once said a very clever thing about multiple exclamation marks. It went like this:
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of someone who wears their underwear on their head.
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03/09/2004 04:23:06 PM · #360 |
Originally posted by A Weaver:
Where do I begin?? A Man's Penis was made to be inserted into the Female vagina!!!! As in the Male sperm enters the Female egg. Witch in turn makes another human being!!!!! If everyone was gay we would not survive as a Human Race!!! I belive that everyone has there own life, and can live it how they want to!!! If your GAY!!!!! Your Parents are too and didnt raise you right!!! |
So naturally, once you have as many children as you want, you never have sex again, right? Oops, I mean, right!!!!!!!!! |
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03/09/2004 04:24:09 PM · #361 |
Obviously, you feel threatened, but rest assurred, heterosexuality, and the human race will survive...trust me. There are many other threats to the human race that need to be addressed.
Originally posted by A Weaver:
Where do I begin?? A Man's Penis was made to be inserted into the Female vagina!!!! As in the Male sperm enters the Female egg. Witch in turn makes another human being!!!!! If everyone was gay we would not survive as a Human Race!!! I belive that everyone has there own life, and can live it how they want to!!! If your GAY!!!!! Your Parents are too and didnt raise you right!!! |
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03/09/2004 04:28:29 PM · #362 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by A Weaver:
Where do I begin?? A Man's Penis was made to be inserted into the Female vagina!!!! As in the Male sperm enters the Female egg. Witch in turn makes another human being!!!!! If everyone was gay we would not survive as a Human Race!!! I belive that everyone has there own life, and can live it how they want to!!! If your GAY!!!!! Your Parents are too and didnt raise you right!!! |
Terry Pratchett once said a very clever thing about multiple exclamation marks. It went like this:
Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of someone who wears their underwear on their head. |
Im in the US ARMY!!!!! Of course i wear my underwear on my head!!!! But I dont Smoke Man Pole!!! I Only Eat Carpet!!!! |
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03/09/2004 04:30:38 PM · #363 |
| A little sence of humor here people!!!! |
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03/09/2004 04:34:20 PM · #364 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by timj351:
If I don't agree with a gay lifestyle (or whatever you prefer to call it) then I am a homophobe, a bigot, and now it also means you are not wanted by those that don't agree with you? |
perhaps it would help (it would certainly help me) if you could define what you mean by you "don't agree" with a gay lifestyle? you don't like guys in hot pants? or you think that homosexuality is immoral by nature?
i'm honestly asking because i want to understand where you're coming from. |
Must be an Indiana Thing!!! I agree |
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03/09/2004 04:35:45 PM · #365 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by RonB:
So, yes, you are correct. The bible said that, at one time, slavery was OK. But not since Christ arrived.
Ron |
So, in principle, things change over time, and the bible isn't always the ultimate answer on everything. That's good to know.
But I guess, my main question is what does any of this religious discussion have to do with civil unions of same sex partners ?
I'm sure there was some separation of church and state that I heard mention of, once upon a time. |
Of course things change over time. For example, 20 years ago this thread would never have been entertained.
Of course, the bible isn't the ultimate authority on everything. Even the bible itself says that: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." John 21:25
This religious discussion ( at least mine ) has nothing to do with civil unions and same sex partners. It was engendered because someone ( magnetic9999 ) took it upon themselves to introduce it as a topic for satire.
You have a fairly good memory, but what you remember was mis-quoted to start with. The "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in our Constitution. What you Should have been remembering is that part of the first amendment to the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Obviously the courts have also mis-interpreted this part of our Constitution, since they continually uphold rulings that "prohibit the free exercise thereof" in violation of that portion of the ammendment.
Ron |
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03/09/2004 04:42:11 PM · #366 |
Originally posted by RonB:
You have a fairly good memory, but what you remember was mis-quoted to start with. The "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in our Constitution. What you Should have been remembering is that part of the first amendment to the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Obviously the courts have also mis-interpreted this part of our Constitution, since they continually uphold rulings that "prohibit the free exercise thereof" in violation of that portion of the ammendment.
Ron |
Its nothing to do with my memory. I have no reason to remember this at all.
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03/09/2004 04:45:48 PM · #367 |
My belief:
Marriage = Loving commitment between two consenting adults.
Stress the "two" "consenting" and "adult."
I also believe that no other marriage can enhance, nor subtract from my parents thirty year marriage.text |
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03/09/2004 05:19:39 PM · #368 |
Originally posted by Gaia:
My belief:
Marriage = Loving commitment between two consenting adults.
Stress the "two" "consenting" and "adult."
I also believe that no other marriage can enhance, nor subtract from my parents thirty year marriage.text |
Just something to think about:
When the Massachusetts Supreme Court handed down its landmark decision on gay marriage, the justices had in their minds the image of adult or middle-aged couples. But what they did in practice was to revolutionize the law on teenage sexuality. The court explicitly declared that homosexual couples must be entitled to full marriage rights . If that equalizing approach applies to the age of consent, then Massachusetts boys will be entitled to enter into a same-sex marriage, with parental consent, or a judge's permission, at the age of 14.
Something else to think about: The age of consent is 12 in at least eight nations; it's 13 in at least seven other nations; and it's 14 in at least twenty-two additional nations.
So is that what you have in mind when you say "two" "consenting" "adults"?
Just asking.
Ron
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03/09/2004 05:23:35 PM · #369 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Something else to think about: The age of consent is 12 in at least eight nations; it's 13 in at least seven other nations; and it's 14 in at least twenty-two additional nations.
So is that what you have in mind when you say "two" "consenting" "adults"?
Ron |
As usual, you are mixing in other issues to try and confuse the point of the discussion (well done, by the way) But the discussion of the age of consent for same or different sex couples is indepedent of the equal rights of same sex partners to be recognised.
Rather than throwing up smoke screen after smokescreen, perhaps you could answer a simple question ?
Why do you feel same sex couples shouldn't be allowed the same civil rights as mixed sex couples ?
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03/09/2004 05:40:26 PM · #370 |
Ron,
by "consenting" I mean not forced. Both must be willing to make the commitment and willing to take the responsibilities as well as the benefits. |
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03/09/2004 06:19:02 PM · #371 |
I want Gordon's post answered.
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03/09/2004 06:56:35 PM · #372 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"Your second coming is drooling in a staight jacket somewhere."
LOL
nice rant, partly true too ;) |
Partly true? Please, share with us some personal stories and fact [I said FACT, not what you heard at the pub the other night when talking to your equally atheist buddies] to back up these claims. So far, everything you guys have said was purely personal opinion based on some anger. Seriously, I'm not antagonizing you, I'm waiting........for my own curiosity. |
In my oppinion, the crusades alone are enough to show, but i added a few more for kicks.
The Crusades
//www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html
//www.unf.edu/classes/crusades/crusadesbibliography.htm
Religions Wars of 1562-98, series of civil wars in France
//www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=109713
Hussite Wars
//www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=92763
Protestant vs Catholic Religion in Ireland
//bible.christiansunite.com/fox/fox017.shtml
//aps.naples.net/community/NFNWebpages/storyboard.cfm?StoryBoardNum=142&PageNum=140
//flag.blackened.net/revolt/wsm/talks/sectarianism2002.html
NIGERIA - Christians versus Moslems
//aps.naples.net/community/NFNWebpages/storyboard.cfm?StoryBoardNum=142&PageNum=130
India vs. Pakistan - Hindus vs. Moslems
//aps.naples.net/community/NFNWebpages/storyboard.cfm?StoryBoardNum=142&PageNum=70
IRAN/IRAQ - Shiite Moslems versus Sunni Moslems
//aps.naples.net/community/NFNWebpages/storyboard.cfm?StoryBoardNum=142&PageNum=100
ETHIOPIA - Moslems versus Christians
//aps.naples.net/community/NFNWebpages/storyboard.cfm?StoryBoardNum=142&PageNum=60
PHILIPPINES - Moslems versus Roman Catholics
//aps.naples.net/community/NFNWebpages/storyboard.cfm?StoryBoardNum=142&PageNum=150 |
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03/09/2004 07:40:33 PM · #373 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Something else to think about: The age of consent is 12 in at least eight nations; it's 13 in at least seven other nations; and it's 14 in at least twenty-two additional nations.
So is that what you have in mind when you say "two" "consenting" "adults"?
Ron |
As usual, you are mixing in other issues to try and confuse the point of the discussion (well done, by the way) But the discussion of the age of consent for same or different sex couples is indepedent of the equal rights of same sex partners to be recognised.
Rather than throwing up smoke screen after smokescreen, perhaps you could answer a simple question ?
Why do you feel same sex couples shouldn't be allowed the same civil rights as mixed sex couples ? |
Gordon, Is this a debating class where you assign the position that I must defend? If not, why are you asking me to defend a position that I have not taken? Not ONCE, in all my posts have I said that I feel that same sex couples shouldn't be allowed the same civil rights as mixed sex couples. If you can find the post where I said that, or anything similar, I will certainly be glad to provide my reasoning for that position. ( Actually I'm stalling for time, here. I really don't know how to defend that position - which is why I haven't taken it. But I'll come up with something, given enough time. )
Ron |
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03/09/2004 07:52:18 PM · #374 |
Originally posted by RonB:
So, yes, you are correct. The bible said that, at one time, slavery was OK. But not since Christ arrived.
Ron |
So our country was founded by anti-Christian heathens, who ruthlessly exploited the abomination of slavery for hundreds of years to create much of the wealth (and concommitant misery) we have today. Much the position taken by John Brown, as I recall.
I'm so glad to finally be able to cite the Bible to support one of my positions ... and look forward your demanding reparations from the Scions of the South to our sinned-against African-American brothers and sisters .... |
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03/09/2004 08:12:12 PM · #375 |
Originally posted by RonB:
... The "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in our Constitution. What you Should have been remembering is that part of the first amendment to the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Obviously the courts have also mis-interpreted this part of our Constitution, since they continually uphold rulings that "prohibit the free exercise thereof" in violation of that portion of the ammendment.
Ron |
The courts won't uphold someone's "free exercise" only in such places and such circumstances as to prevent someone else's freedom to practice their's.
"Separation of church and state" is a handy sound bite (surely you're familiar with the concept of distilling national policy anto an eight-second one-liner) used to conveniently describe the principles embodied in the actual language.
This analogy comes by way of a famous quote:
The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. (1841 - 1935)
By the way, it occurs to me to remind everyone that the Bible WAS NOT WRITTEN in English, and we have only the "word" of about 400 generations of translators and transcribers that the majority is actually THE Word of God as delivered directly to the divinely possessed. |
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