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11/10/2007 11:17:42 AM · #101 |
Originally posted by smurfguy:
But I do lean toward those qualifiers which reward higher scoring photogs. Makes the entries more interesting, and it's by definition "what the voters want to see". |
Okay, by that criteria, you have a single higher score than I do, but my front page average is higher than yours which means I'm more consistent, and I have no DQs.
One or the other of us gets to enter.....who?......8>)
Edited for fat fingers.....
Message edited by author 2007-11-10 11:18:19.
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11/10/2007 11:19:55 AM · #102 |
| quality,quality,quality and ideas,ideas,ideas otherwise there isn't solution! more interesting challenges, new subjects, SOMETHING OF NEW!!!!! More speed challenges someone open also. |
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11/10/2007 11:26:12 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by Rino63:
quality,quality,quality and ideas,ideas,ideas otherwise there isn't solution! more interesting challenges, new subjects, SOMETHING OF NEW!!!!! More speed challenges someone open also. |
I'm really not sure about the idea of additional challenges.
Maybe the statisticians out there could try and work out whether there is a consistent(ish) number of votes available, but maybe they are getting diluted by having too many challenges to vote on.
I have to admit that if there are 5 challenges out there I'm not going to vote more than if there are 2 challenges running.
Well I might sometimes - but you know what I mean.
Message edited by author 2007-11-10 11:27:19. |
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11/10/2007 11:30:32 AM · #104 |
Originally posted by travis_cooper:
So us users who are just starting out and trying to learn never make it into a challenge, thus can never get our qualifications up to snuff, so we never get to have pictures voted on? How hard is it to see a bad picture, or even a mediocre picture and give it a score? This site should be about learning not about who has the best pictures, and lets just see theirs over and over again. |
If we're truly interested in making this site better, then the heck with commenting on the obviously good entries and instead, seriously evaluate the lesser ones and try to make helpful, thoughtful ones to be supportive and helpful.
One thing that Team Suck does that works remarkably well is that we "Punish" the photog that has the "Momentary Lack of Suckage" in any challenge by asking that he/she go back and comment on everyone else's entry.
It's a fantastic way to make you work at giving some decent critiquing of people's shots that you know, so you're way more conscientious about your commenting.
AND.....it makes you more considerate across the board 'cause you never know if you leave a less than stellar comment whether you may have to explain yourself to a friend later!......8>)
Anyway, there are some unofficial ribbons out there floating around for things like 100% commenting in challenges, OOBies, Yappies; the side challenges get a lot of time and comments on them.......
Maybe there are other considerations that affect the challenges. I do know for a fact that participation as far as votes and comments fell off during the DPL 'cause some got so wrapped up in the competition they were entered in that the recreational challenges became secondary.
I heard a number of people say they were taking time off at various points due to DPL burnout.
I can't say that it bothered me a lot, but I almost feel like a little bit of an outsider 'cause I don't participate in the DPL, and I have watched people improve, yet spend more time away from the community as a whole with the intensity of the small team effort.
Just my $0.02 US......8>)
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11/10/2007 11:39:25 AM · #105 |
Originally posted by RamblinR:
Currently everyone must vote on 20% of a challenge for it to count - whether you have an entry or not.
Why don't we make it that if you have entered the challenge you must vote on 20% of the challenge or your entry will be removed.
Maybe those that have entered should vote on a greater percentage of entries eg 33%. And we could throw in that those entered must also comment on 10% of the entries. Or you submission is removed.
Entering a challenge would therefore come at a price - a voting/comment price.
If you don't think you can manage the voting/comments, don't enter.
Don't hammer me for this idea - it's just an idea. |
I think this idea or something along these lines has merit.
In my case, with dialup, voting and commenting is a PITA, but I also don't feel that it's right for me to enter a challenge and not do my fair share by voting.
I always vote at lest 20% in the challenges I enter, and try to do 100% whenever time allows.
My only exception to that is that sometimes if I'm in a FS and one or two others at the same time, I simply do not have time to do the FS vote, but I will make it a point to vote as much as I can in the other challenges.
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11/10/2007 12:08:07 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
My thought is if you enter a challenge, you have to vote on 20% or your entry will be voided. |
This has merit.
It basically would cause you to enter and participate responsibly.
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11/10/2007 12:16:30 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
My concern is that if people aren't voting, it's because they're not seeing voting as a fun, rewarding, or worthwhile use of their time. Perhaps the question that needs to be asked, is what can we do to make the voting process more fun, more rewarding, more worthwhile, or just plain easier? |
The obvious answer is also no doubt the hardest. Improve the overall quality of the images on display. |
That happens to virtually every participating member over time.
If you enter and vote on challenges, ask and answer questions in the forums, and participate in the numerous side challenges and projects, you cannot help but produce better images.
You will always have lesser quality images, and you should as new blood comes in, but rather than squauking about them, HELP them as we've all been helped to be better photographers.
I like the campaign idea, too!
ETA: I'm done rambling for a while.....it's safe to come out again.....8>)
Message edited by author 2007-11-10 12:17:21.
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11/10/2007 12:20:01 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Gordon:
I suppose some sort of qualification might work. Or a lottery. |
The downside of that as someone who perpetually gets the bay leaf in the spaghetti sauce and the bone in the chicken corn soup is that I, or someone like me, would get really disgruntled after three challenges in a row that we liked and wanted to enter, we couldn't.
You'd lose people that way. |
Quite often lotteries like this would give you an automatic 'in' on the third attempt if you missed out, or that sort of thing. |
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11/10/2007 12:23:59 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Rankings to me would make it so people only look and vote for the higher ranking images which may be great for the better photogs but what about the rest of the participants? Without the voting and comments for people that are new and trying to learn you would be unintentionally hurting people who may be future stars to th esite, IMHO. |
I know there's something of an urban myth that the people at the low end of the scale are getting education to help when they submit their image, get a score in the 4s and no comments.
I'd question the educational value of that. Now, if someone was going through the bottom 25% each week, contacting them, seeing if
1/ they actually wanted help/feedback
2/ trying to answer their questions or issues
then I might buy in to the educational aspect of the challenges.
But 100 people saying 'bad' vs. 5 jurors saying 'bad' is equally useful(useless)
I could see a more useful teaching aspect and a more useful challenge aspect coming out of this, but it would require some people set up as somewhat arbitary judges of taste /quality and helping those that don't make it in to the main 'show' each week. |
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11/10/2007 02:25:47 PM · #110 |
No, the members in general would only vote once on any image. The entries would have been screened by the jury.
The challenges would be sorted by rank, a photographer would have to be ranked high enough to enter a certain challenge. Rank would, in turn, be determined by not only score, but comments and voting as well, with votes and comments in the lower ranking challenges counting more than votes and comments in high rank challenges.
This would provide everyone with greater incentive to both vote and comment on less experienced photographers' entries in order to improve their own rank and allow them to compete on a broader scale.
It would also allow DPC to schedule challenges geared towards beginners learning the basics, while others would present more demanding tasks for more experienced members.
Personally, I vote less because there are fewer and fewer good images in any given challenge. It's just screen after screen of mediocrity. I get bored giving 3's, 4's and 5's, waiting to be surprised by something really good.
Originally posted by Jedusi:
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It's not the number of entries, it's the quality. I'd gladly look at 500+ images that made me think or otherwise engaged me. Too many entries are just....well....bad. Sure they meet the challenge, but in a completely trite way, they don't go further to engage and challenge the viewer.
I have two suggestions:
1. Run it like a juried show. Anyone can submit, but a jury filters out the boring, bad and awful. Voters then vote on the rest. Assign a predetermined number of entries that will be voted on. Display both the number that will be voted on along with the number of entries. people wanting to enter will be forced to decide if they think their entry has a chance. Let the jury see the entries as they come in so they can sort the wheat from the chaff as the entries come in.
2. Have rankings, something that combines past scores, votes cast and maybe comments too. Have different challenges for different ranks. Let votes and comments on the lower ranks count more than votes and comments on the higher ranks. |
Rankings to me would make it so people only look and vote for the higher ranking images which may be great for the better photogs but what about the rest of the participants? Without the voting and comments for people that are new and trying to learn you would be unintentionally hurting people who may be future stars to th esite, IMHO. |
Not sure about tyhis one - I have wodered before whether it would be good to need to make the 'cut'.
I think for many beginners it would be an intitial challenge to try and get beyond the first cut - so it wouldn't simply be a negative thing, but on the other hand would people want to vote 1, 2, or even 3 times on the same picture ? I would suggest not.
If you had a first cut to half the numbers I suspect people would either vote on that first cut, or, the second - not both. So again you have issues with lack of voting.
Secondly it would still allow all sorts of pictures through and equally good ones would very often get lost. I find it fascinating seeing some of the pictures consigned to the lower and middle orders.
It would be good to find some sort of carrot though. I liked the idea of using ebay type coloured stars against a user to show their current (yearly) voting level, and having peoples stats and voting numbers searchable. Maybe you could have a challenge limited to those who have made more than 'x' comments in the last 6 months? At least there should be plenty of comments on those entries :- ) |
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11/10/2007 02:31:42 PM · #111 |
| Best idea yet, shut the threads off for 1 day a week, this will give everyone a chance to vote! :P |
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11/10/2007 03:15:50 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by PapaBob:
Best idea yet, shut the threads off for 1 day a week, this will give everyone a chance to vote! :P |
Would that be on my day off or yours? |
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11/10/2007 04:24:49 PM · #113 |
I have several ideas. One of them involves the forums, but I'll refrain from suggesting that for the moment. Another one, which is 'out of the box' and perhaps impossible to implement, is this:
A user must spend (at least) 50% of their time logged in at DPC voting.
At first this you might think: oh well users will just stay logged out when reading the forums or looking at images - perhaps. However they won't be able to post without logging in (and that will then show (register) their time on the site).
Yes, could be seen as a 'force voting' idea - but it is not really. It is about contributing to the 'essence' of the site.
Also, this idea covers the issue of people not having enough time. For example, if you spend an hour at DPC every week, 1/2 an hour must be contributed to voting. If you spend 10 hours at DPC per week, 5 goes to voting. Surely this is a 'weighted' solution to the "I don't have enough time to vote" issue. Which is of course only one facet of the larger issue.
PS
I'm still a little baffled why this discussion is occurring in two threads. edit:typos
Message edited by author 2007-11-10 16:27:15. |
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11/10/2007 04:31:56 PM · #114 |
| All these suggestions and still mine is the best one.. I rule! |
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11/10/2007 04:34:39 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Simms:
All these suggestions and still mine is the best one.. I rule! |
haha, you're too good to be true. :P
I also like your suggestion (I suppose you're pointing at the first post here?) |
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11/10/2007 04:39:55 PM · #116 |
Actually - how about voting credits. its kind of like an idea posted earlier, but with a different name, thus now my idea..
100 votes = 1 challenge credit
Enter Freestudy costs 5 credits
Enter popcorn challenge costs 1 credit (example cost)
we all start with 10 challenge credits upon rollout of this great idea which kind of gets us all started.
maybe we could buy credits off other users, so someone who votes more than someone else who enters more challenges has an excess of credits.. I dunno, had too much wine AGAIN.... MUST STOP DRINKING.
see, in a normal freestudy we generally get around 500 entries, so as long as you vote on the previous months freestudy, you earn enough credits to enter the following months freestudy..
this is as good as my other idea, if not better.
Message edited by author 2007-11-10 16:40:24. |
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11/10/2007 04:43:23 PM · #117 |
even better, I think.
a Dutch photosite works with a system like this. comment on X-number of photo's, and then you can upload a new photo.
I think this is worth a try. |
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11/10/2007 04:46:12 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by Simms:
... so if you say, after 1000 votes you beacome a bronze star voter, with an icon shown next to your name in forums, on your pictures etc. 10,000 you become a silver and so on, obviously make each next rank harder to achieve... A small box on the frontpage with "top ten voters of the week/month/year"... |
I like your ideas and the site is big enough that little 'distinguishing' icons would help identify users. I would also like to see these shown if you comment, and maybe (don't know how) included in the voting - so you know how many experienced voters rated your image.
All that said, your ideas are good but in my opinion do not address the root cause.
As for more portfolio space, etc - I don't agree, that means DPC is essentially paying money (server space) for people to vote. |
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11/10/2007 04:49:50 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by macrothing:
Originally posted by Simms:
... so if you say, after 1000 votes you beacome a bronze star voter, with an icon shown next to your name in forums, on your pictures etc. 10,000 you become a silver and so on, obviously make each next rank harder to achieve... A small box on the frontpage with "top ten voters of the week/month/year"... |
I like your ideas and the site is big enough that little 'distinguishing' icons would help identify users. I would also like to see these shown if you comment, and maybe (don't know how) included in the voting - so you know how many experienced voters rated your image.
All that said, your ideas are good but in my opinion do not address the root cause.
As for more portfolio space, etc - I don't agree, that means DPC is essentially paying money (server space) for people to vote. |
ah, but factor that idea in (ignore the server space part for the timebeing, that can be thrashed out later on) with my other idea a couple of posts ago.. and I think I've cracked it.. no seriously I do.. you just havent realised it yet. |
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11/10/2007 04:51:15 PM · #120 |
I'm with kirbic on this issue. You can't force people to vote by taking away privileges (sorry Mark but that' what you're suggesting). They have to want to vote so just make the voting experience more enjoyable and see what that accomplishes.
As I suggested earlier if you repeat challenges, choose from the most popular ones only. We have enough data on this to figure out which has generated the most interest. Number of comments received on average of previous challenges might be a strong clue.
Make the voting different but give people the option to still vote the old way. In other words, offer more choices in the way you see the photos. For those who have large monitors give those people the option to see 2-3 photos side by side. For those who only like to vote on subjects they like then give them the option to sort by gallery type. As long as they vote 20% who cares what subject they focus on especially when they might be doing it already (wink wink).
Message edited by author 2007-11-10 16:51:58.
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11/10/2007 04:54:13 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by yanko:
I'm with kirbic on this issue. You can't force people to vote by taking away privileges (sorry Mark but that' what you're suggesting). They have to want to vote so just make the voting experience more enjoyable and see what that accomplishes.
As I suggested earlier if you repeat challenges, choose from the most popular ones only. We have enough data on this to figure out which has generated the most interest. Number of comments received on average of previous challenges might be a strong clue.
Make the voting different but give people the option to still vote the old way. In other words, offer more choices in the way you see the photos. For those who have large monitors give those people the option to see 2-3 photos side by side. For those who only like to vote on subjects they like then give them the option to sort by gallery type. As long as they vote 20% who cares what subject they focus on especially when they might be doing it already (wink wink). |
OK, I think you are onto something here.. how about, when they decide to vote, they are presented with 20% of the entries, randomly selected.. now they have to vote on this initial 20% before the other 80% of the challenge is visible? This would stop people looking at the thumbnails page and picking the ones that look interesting. You could even engineer it so that the 20% you get to see are the 20% of the images with the lowest numbers of votes..
This would encourage entrants to vote so they could `unlock` the remaining images to see what they are up against. Even if they stop after the initial 20% at least you have got them to vote and thus pushed the voting up slightly higher.
Or even completely lock out the thumbnails page until 100% of images have been voted on.. granted afew wouldnt even bother to look, but I know that not being able to see the competition would bug the hell out of me and encourage me to vote more. I think this would generate a LOT of votes immediately after rollover.
or even make it 50%..
Message edited by author 2007-11-10 17:01:53. |
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11/10/2007 05:06:41 PM · #122 |
Not directed at anyone in particular, but how many, in between reading this thread, have one of these windows open as well:
Scene It! II
Popcorn
Single Light Source IV
?
If not, why not?
If so, why?
Honest answers to these questions might help find the best solution(s).
Of course, the non forum readers/posters won't be answering. |
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11/10/2007 05:19:46 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by yanko:
I'm with kirbic on this issue. You can't force people to vote by taking away privileges (sorry Mark but that' what you're suggesting). They have to want to vote so just make the voting experience more enjoyable and see what that accomplishes.
As I suggested earlier if you repeat challenges, choose from the most popular ones only. We have enough data on this to figure out which has generated the most interest. Number of comments received on average of previous challenges might be a strong clue.
Make the voting different but give people the option to still vote the old way. In other words, offer more choices in the way you see the photos. For those who have large monitors give those people the option to see 2-3 photos side by side. For those who only like to vote on subjects they like then give them the option to sort by gallery type. As long as they vote 20% who cares what subject they focus on especially when they might be doing it already (wink wink). |
OK, I think you are onto something here.. how about, when they decide to vote, they are presented with 20% of the entries, randomly selected.. now they have to vote on this initial 20% before the other 80% of the challenge is visible? This would stop people looking at the thumbnails page and picking the ones that look interesting. You could even engineer it so that the 20% you get to see are the 20% of the images with the lowest numbers of votes..
This would encourage entrants to vote so they could `unlock` the remaining images to see what they are up against. Even if they stop after the initial 20% at least you have got them to vote and thus pushed the voting up slightly higher.
Or even completely lock out the thumbnails page until 100% of images have been voted on.. granted afew wouldnt even bother to look, but I know that not being able to see the competition would bug the hell out of me and encourage me to vote more. I think this would generate a LOT of votes immediately after rollover.
or even make it 50%.. |
None of this does anything to actually help or encourage beginners. |
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11/10/2007 05:33:55 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I know there's something of an urban myth that the people at the low end of the scale are getting education to help when they submit their image, get a score in the 4s and no comments.
I'd question the educational value of that. Now, if someone was going through the bottom 25% each week, contacting them, seeing if
1/ they actually wanted help/feedback
2/ trying to answer their questions or issues
then I might buy in to the educational aspect of the challenges.
But 100 people saying 'bad' vs. 5 jurors saying 'bad' is equally useful(useless)
I could see a more useful teaching aspect and a more useful challenge aspect coming out of this, but it would require some people set up as somewhat arbitary judges of taste /quality and helping those that don't make it in to the main 'show' each week. |
Gordon, thanks. This has given me an idea. I don't want to hijack the important discussion in in this thread, but I'd love to have your thoughts on this one
Thanks,
~Terry
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11/10/2007 05:53:41 PM · #125 |
OK, here I go again. Don't know why I do this as I'm sure to rub someone up the wrong way again.
This site has many members and submissions to challenges are quite strong. Maybe it's time to create some grades. A, B and C or just A & B. Maybe it would help give some recognition to beginners. A chance to be more than the average.
Your current overall average could be used to decide which grade you are in. As it goes up your grade goes up, as it goes down your grade goes down. This means that those that are in say C grade, actually get a chance of getting a picture on the front page for their grade. That would be an encouragement to many I am sure.
I'm thinking that this would create more interest in voting for those that are always disappointed with their placing. They now have an interest to vote for their grade and see how they fare now that they have a better chance of maybe getting on the front page for a week. (We all want a ribbon - at least I'd love one anyway).
The members portfolio would then show a blue ribbon with a C beside it so that everyone knows which grade it was for.
I also still think that voting on a percentage of the entries if you have entered the challenge should just be part of the deal. If you had time to submit a photo then you should make time to vote and be part of the challenge you have entered - it's a simple and effective way to participate in this site (yes, there are others also).
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