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11/30/2007 08:31:19 AM · #851 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
His "State of Fear" was awesome, and timely, and pretty much cemented the way I feel about global warming.
He asks questions, and poses what-ifs that piss people off and if we're lucky, make them think, really hard.
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Nothing like global warming extremists running around using blue ringed octopi to murder people, I suppose ;)
PS: Wrong thread, and I know one small rebuttal won't change any minds. Spoilers to Crichton's State of Fear warning
EDIT: Thanks RonB and Doc for the links
Message edited by author 2007-11-30 08:31:51. |
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11/30/2007 09:46:58 AM · #852 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
His "State of Fear" was awesome, and timely, and pretty much cemented the way I feel about global warming.
He asks questions, and poses what-ifs that piss people off and if we're lucky, make them think, really hard.
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Originally posted by pidge:
Nothing like global warming extremists running around using blue ringed octopi to murder people, I suppose ;)
PS: Wrong thread, and I know one small rebuttal won't change any minds. Spoilers to Crichton's State of Fear warning
EDIT: Thanks RonB and Doc for the links |
Well, you sort of jacked just this part out of a general statement about Crichton's works that I made after a genetics comment........8>)
My point was merely that I am constantly amused at the way that he writes timely novels that make the scientists go nuts and scream about him being a hack who "just writes novels" without remembering that he has considerable knowledge, experience, and does much research for his novels.
He makes people scream bloody murder, go out of their way to refute him, and when you get right down to it, he helps awareness considerably.
And unlike Al Gore, he actually has some of his OWN ideas based on his own work and conclusions instead of merely trumpeting others' info as his own.
But no Nobel for Crichton! Imagine that.....he does the same thing Gore did once, for years, raises controversy and awareness on current issues, and he's a hack, but Al does it once, and he's a Nobel Laureate.
Let's talk credentials:
CRICHTON, (John) Michael. American. Born in Chicago, Illinois, October 23, 1942. Educated at Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, A.B. (summa cum laude) 1964 (Phi Beta Kappa). Henry Russell Shaw Travelling Fellow, 1964-65. Visiting Lecturer in Anthropology at Cambridge University, England, 1965. Graduated Harvard Medical School, M.D. 1969; post-doctoral fellow at the Salk Institute for Biological Sciences, La Jolla, California 1969-1970. Visiting Writer, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 1988.
Gore attended St. Albans School where he ranked 25th (of 51) in his senior class. In 1965, Gore enrolled at Harvard College, the only university to which he applied. He scored in the lower fifth of the class for two years in a row and, after finding himself bored with his classes in his declared English major, Gore switched majors and found a passion for government and graduated with honors from Harvard in June 1969 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in government. After returning from the military he took religious studies courses at Vanderbilt and then entered the university's law school. He left Vanderbilt without a degree to run for an open seat in Tennessee's 3rd Congressional District in 1976.
We're talking serious brain trust here!!!
There's something to ponder.
Not that I feel that Crichton deserves a Nobel......and I'm sure he'd find the idea preposterous.
I loved Crichton's forenote in "Next"
"This is a work of fiction. Except for the parts that aren't."
What a hoot!
Message edited by author 2007-11-30 10:17:28.
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11/30/2007 10:39:38 AM · #853 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
"This is a work of fiction. Except for the parts that aren't."
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That's rather the point though, isn't it. Large amounts of his books are made up. They are fiction/ faction call it what you like. Then people start treating it as if it is somehow meaningful or insightful. It's made up to tell a story, not to inform the public. Which is fine and all, until you start giving it credibility as somehow informative.
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11/30/2007 11:16:07 AM · #854 |
Archeological find
Another find indicating more accuracy contained within Bible History.
I of course, found the sentence by Mazar that this was discovered during a time when many scholars doubted its existence. Indicating to me an example of the thinking exhibited by some here.
Others of course, will concentrate on the words by Finkelstein, indicating that this find is merely interesting.
Freedom of coice has its responsibilities.
For the record...
The Bible is 3 texts. 1 is history - which archeology is proving more and more of it every day. 2 is a philosophical treatise - which some choose to challenge by using literal accuracy arguments, when these arguments should be argued philosophically. 3rd is a piece of literature - entailing all the effects and properties that literature contains.
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11/30/2007 11:53:21 AM · #855 |
Originally posted by Flash:
The fossil record also shows a universal global flood. Worldwide fossils of animals and fish have been found buried in swimming positions---suddenly and catastrophically preserved in a moment of time. Rhinos, zebras, and hippos have been found buried in volcanic ash in Nebraska in swimming positions. The Beresovka River mammoth of Siberia was discovered half-kneeling, half-standing with buttercups in its mouth. In Scotland, tons of fish have been found in positions of terror with their fins extended and eyes bulging. Another fossil graveyard in Germany shows a mixture of plants and insects from all climatic zones. When these kinds of fossils are found together, it is usually indicative of global flooding and rapid burial. |
Flash,
Have you had an opportunity to find supporting data for the claim you posted that rhinos, zebras and hippos having been found in buried in volcanic ash in Nebraska?
Your assistance in substantiating this claim would be appreciated. Thank you.
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11/30/2007 12:02:39 PM · #856 |
Originally posted by Flash:
The Bible is 3 texts. 1 is history - which archeology is proving more and more of it every day. |
If this proof you speak of consists of all your previous posts on this subject, then we have already debunked it thoroughly, and it is no proof at all. |
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11/30/2007 12:03:54 PM · #857 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Have you had an opportunity to find supporting data for the claim you posted that rhinos, zebras and hippos having been found in buried in volcanic ash in Nebraska? |
I couldn't find any reference to zebras, but there was an extinct species of rhinoceros that lived in water like a hippo in ancient Nebraska (along with camels, three-toed horses, and saber-toothed deer). Maybe that's the "historic evidence" for a global Flash flood? |
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11/30/2007 12:28:16 PM · #858 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Have you had an opportunity to find supporting data for the claim you posted that rhinos, zebras and hippos having been found in buried in volcanic ash in Nebraska? |
I couldn't find any reference to zebras, but there was an extinct species of rhinoceros that lived in water like a hippo in ancient Nebraska (along with camels, three-toed horses, and saber-toothed deer). Maybe that's the "historic evidence" for a global Flash flood? |
Flash,
Was your post referring to the extinct species of rhino called Teleoceras which apparently lived on the North American continent during and after the Miocene period, approximately 5.3 million years ago? Your post seemed to imply that modern rhinoceros were found in volcanic ash in Nebraska. If you look at the pictures, you’ll see they look somewhat different than the five extant species of rhinoceros currently found from Africa to Asia.
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11/30/2007 12:48:06 PM · #859 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
"This is a work of fiction. Except for the parts that aren't." |
Originally posted by Gordon:
That's rather the point though, isn't it. Large amounts of his books are made up. They are fiction/ faction call it what you like. Then people start treating it as if it is somehow meaningful or insightful. It's made up to tell a story, not to inform the public. Which is fine and all, until you start giving it credibility as somehow informative. |
And again, my point was not that he's the final word by any stretch of the imagination, but that his work is credible and believable within the framework of fiction.
So much so that it sends informed, reasoned people screaming.
He's interesting, informed, entertaining, and from what I've seen, takes himself a lot less seriously than others do.
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11/30/2007 02:43:14 PM · #860 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And again, my point was not that he's the final word by any stretch of the imagination, but that his work is credible and believable within the framework of fiction.
So much so that it sends informed, reasoned people screaming. |
[... because people take his fiction seriously]
I like his books. I enjoy a good yarn. I don't take any educational value from reading his books though.
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11/30/2007 02:54:55 PM · #861 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And again, my point was not that he's the final word by any stretch of the imagination, but that his work is credible and believable within the framework of fiction.
So much so that it sends informed, reasoned people screaming. |
[... because people take his fiction seriously]
I like his books. I enjoy a good yarn. I don't take any educational value from reading his books though. |
This is not directed at Gordon particularly, it's just an observation and Gordon's post is the top of the heap re: Crichton, so...
But every book that Crichton writes is a "cautionary tale". He's very well educated, he's very thoughtful, he researches extensively. There is always a strong thread of reality in his work. But he's like a science fiction writer, extrapolating from what he has learned and saying "what if"?
The key thing about his book, "State of Fear", is it's exploration of just that; how the political machinery requires fear to attain its ends. I found the book very sobering. He may be right or wrong in his stance on global warming, but that's not the thing that stands out for me. What rings really, really true is his in-depth exploration of how the establishment uses (and has always used) the creation of fear in the population to further its agenda.
The book is about how people can be manipulated, not about global warming per se.
R.
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11/30/2007 03:07:47 PM · #862 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And again, my point was not that he's the final word by any stretch of the imagination, but that his work is credible and believable within the framework of fiction.
So much so that it sends informed, reasoned people screaming. |
[... because people take his fiction seriously]
I like his books. I enjoy a good yarn. I don't take any educational value from reading his books though. |
This is not directed at Gordon particularly, it's just an observation and Gordon's post is the top of the heap re: Crichton, so...
But every book that Crichton writes is a "cautionary tale". He's very well educated, he's very thoughtful, he researches extensively. There is always a strong thread of reality in his work. But he's like a science fiction writer, extrapolating from what he has learned and saying "what if"?
The key thing about his book, "State of Fear", is it's exploration of just that; how the political machinery requires fear to attain its ends. I found the book very sobering. He may be right or wrong in his stance on global warming, but that's not the thing that stands out for me. What rings really, really true is his in-depth exploration of how the establishment uses (and has always used) the creation of fear in the population to further its agenda.
The book is about how people can be manipulated, not about global warming per se.
R. |
What writers like Chrichton do is take existing facts and situations and then fill in gaps or discrepancies and then extrapolate to explore what might happen.
The little kernel of reality makes for great fiction. Unfortunately, people see that little bit of truth at the center of the story and conclude that the situation portrayed in the book is possible, or even likely. That's rarely the case. |
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11/30/2007 03:12:44 PM · #863 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What writers like Chrichton do is take existing facts and situations and then fill in gaps or discrepancies and then extrapolate to explore what might happen. |
Absolutely. That's the kind of thinking that's at the core of classic Science Fiction also. And it's a VERY valuable way of thinking. It's always good to be looking ahead, wondering "what if".
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The little kernel of reality makes for great fiction. Unfortunately, people see that little bit of truth at the center of the story and conclude that the situation portrayed in the book is possible, or even likely. That's rarely the case. |
This may be true with regards to the global warming framework of the story, but as I said I don't believe that's the real eye-opener here. What's MUCH more interesting to me is his exploration of "the state of fear", and his documentation of that through history is sobering. I don't see how you can read about this kind of stuff and not feel a dawning sense of awareness that we are all pawns in a very subtle and malicious game.
R.
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11/30/2007 03:18:08 PM · #864 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The little kernel of reality makes for great fiction. Unfortunately, people see that little bit of truth at the center of the story and conclude that the situation portrayed in the book is possible, or even likely. That's rarely the case. |
This may be true with regards to the global warming framework of the story, but as I said I don't believe that's the real eye-opener here. What's MUCH more interesting to me is his exploration of "the state of fear", and his documentation of that through history is sobering. I don't see how you can read about this kind of stuff and not feel a dawning sense of awareness that we are all pawns in a very subtle and malicious game.
R. |
Don't read Machiavelli. |
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11/30/2007 03:22:08 PM · #865 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Don't read Machiavelli. |
Oh, I have... And a lot of other scary stuff besides. That's why I am ABLE to believe Crichton, and wish more people would pay attention to this core message in his book, instead of getting deflected entirely into the global warming issue.
R.
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11/30/2007 03:28:27 PM · #866 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Don't read Machiavelli. |
Oh, I have... And a lot of other scary stuff besides. That's why I am ABLE to believe Crichton, and wish more people would pay attention to this core message in his book, instead of getting deflected entirely into the global warming issue.
R. |
Crichton is fiction. You need to stop suspending your disbelief and come back to earth. What little truth is in his work is irretrievably mixed and muddled with fabrications that none of it should be taken as the truth.
I remember when Jurassic Park was out and people got in a huge uproar about those crazy scientists that were actively resurrecting extinct dinosaurs. |
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11/30/2007 03:35:29 PM · #867 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Crichton is fiction. You need to stop suspending your disbelief and come back to earth. What little truth is in his work is irretrievably mixed and muddled with fabrications that none of it should be taken as the truth.
I remember when Jurassic Park was out and people got in a huge uproar about those crazy scientists that were actively resurrecting extinct dinosaurs. |
You're missing my point. I am not saying I believe the "science" that underpins the global warming part of the book. What I believe is that the powers-that-be stay in power by fostering a state of fear in the population at large. And this isn't something new, either (as per your reference to Machiavelli); it's been going on forever.
I wish there were a way to wake the people up, to help them realize they are being manipulated by those in power every day of their lives.
R.
ETA: as far as Jurassic Park goes, the book made an entirely valid point about the potential dangers of messing with DNA, cloning and the like. Sure, it's fiction: nobody's making islands full of dinosaurs, but that's his METAPHOR, don't you see?
Message edited by author 2007-11-30 15:37:32.
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11/30/2007 03:39:46 PM · #868 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
What I believe is that the powers-that-be stay in power by fostering a state of fear in the population at large. And this isn't something new, either (as per your reference to Machiavelli); it's been going on forever.
I wish there were a way to wake the people up, to help them realize they are being manipulated by those in power every day of their lives. |
Both thoughts are ironic in the context of this particular thread (or at least where it began). |
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11/30/2007 03:41:48 PM · #869 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Crichton is fiction. You need to stop suspending your disbelief and come back to earth. What little truth is in his work is irretrievably mixed and muddled with fabrications that none of it should be taken as the truth.
I remember when Jurassic Park was out and people got in a huge uproar about those crazy scientists that were actively resurrecting extinct dinosaurs. |
You're missing my point. I am not saying I believe the "science" that underpins the global warming part of the book. What I believe is that the powers-that-be stay in power by fostering a state of fear in the population at large. And this isn't something new, either (as per your reference to Machiavelli); it's been going on forever.
I wish there were a way to wake the people up, to help them realize they are being manipulated by those in power every day of their lives.
R.
ETA: as far as Jurassic Park goes, the book made an entirely valid point about the potential dangers of messing with DNA, cloning and the like. Sure, it's fiction: nobody's making islands full of dinosaurs, but that's his METAPHOR, don't you see? |
I do see, but many readers take it literally.
As for people waking up, it's been almost 500 years since Niccolo Machiavelli's death and people continue to be bamboozled. I'm not expecting anything to change anytime soon. |
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11/30/2007 03:44:18 PM · #870 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Crichton is fiction. You need to stop suspending your disbelief and come back to earth. What little truth is in his work is irretrievably mixed and muddled with fabrications that none of it should be taken as the truth.
I remember when Jurassic Park was out and people got in a huge uproar about those crazy scientists that were actively resurrecting extinct dinosaurs. |
Yeah, all that stuff about using ancient DNA to create creatures in the here and now is totally fictional and would never happen in the real world. Luckily, no scientist would even THINK of doing such a thing. . . . . . . .except for the ones who really are extracting snippets of DNA sequences that represent what they believe to be remnants of ancient retroviruses and using them to recreate the viruses in the here and now:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
An interesting article in The New Yorker magazine this week:
Darwin's Surprise |
An excerpt:
"Thierry Heidmann brought one back to life. Combining the tools of genomics, virology, and evolutionary biology, he and his colleagues took a virus that had been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years, figured out how the broken parts were originally aligned, and then pieced them together. After resurrecting the virus, the team placed it in human cells and found that their creation did indeed insert itself into the DNA of those cells. They also mixed the virus with cells taken from hamsters and cats. It quickly infected them all, offering the first evidence that the broken parts could once again be made infectious. The experiment could provide vital clues about how viruses like H.I.V. work. Inevitably, though, it also conjures images of Frankenstein’s monster and Jurassic Park"
Oh, yeah. That. |
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11/30/2007 03:58:38 PM · #871 |
Originally posted by RonB:
An excerpt:
"Thierry Heidmann brought one back to life. Combining the tools of genomics, virology, and evolutionary biology, he and his colleagues took a virus that had been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years, figured out how the broken parts were originally aligned, and then pieced them together. After resurrecting the virus, the team placed it in human cells and found that their creation did indeed insert itself into the DNA of those cells. They also mixed the virus with cells taken from hamsters and cats. It quickly infected them all, offering the first evidence that the broken parts could once again be made infectious. The experiment could provide vital clues about how viruses like H.I.V. work. Inevitably, though, it also conjures images of Frankenstein’s monster and Jurassic Park"
Oh, yeah. That. |
EXACTLY! As the mariners used to print in the unexplored areas of their charts, "here there be dragons"...
R.
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11/30/2007 04:01:27 PM · #872 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
What I believe is that the powers-that-be stay in power by fostering a state of fear in the population at large. And this isn't something new, either (as per your reference to Machiavelli); it's been going on forever.
I wish there were a way to wake the people up, to help them realize they are being manipulated by those in power every day of their lives. |
Both thoughts are ironic in the context of this particular thread (or at least where it began). |
If you're saying that religions in general, and The Holy Catholic Church in specific, have shown a propensity for bonding their adherents to them with the implements of fear, you're absolutely correct. This is why I try to draw a distinction between belief in a Supreme Being and belief in a "religion"; religions are the creations of men, often used as tools to manipulate men, but personally I don't see the putative Supreme Being as having any input whatsoever in that sorry state of affairs.
R.
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11/30/2007 04:20:07 PM · #873 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
...religions are the creations of men, often used as tools to manipulate men, but personally I don't see the putative Supreme Being as having any input whatsoever in that sorry state of affairs. |
Except, of course, by way of its purported omniscience, knowledge of the ultimate destiny of mankind, and prankish desire to instill humans with free will. ;-) |
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11/30/2007 04:26:42 PM · #874 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Crichton is fiction. You need to stop suspending your disbelief and come back to earth. What little truth is in his work is irretrievably mixed and muddled with fabrications that none of it should be taken as the truth.
I remember when Jurassic Park was out and people got in a huge uproar about those crazy scientists that were actively resurrecting extinct dinosaurs. |
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Let me know when the T-Rex is done. |
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11/30/2007 04:27:36 PM · #875 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Crichton is fiction. You need to stop suspending your disbelief and come back to earth. What little truth is in his work is irretrievably mixed and muddled with fabrications that none of it should be taken as the truth.
I remember when Jurassic Park was out and people got in a huge uproar about those crazy scientists that were actively resurrecting extinct dinosaurs. |
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Let me know when the T-Rex is done. |
Rare, medium, or well? |
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