In our daughter's school folder...

10/29/2007 08:26:38 PM · #1

Several papers came home with our 6 year old daughter today:

1. Girl Scout registration papers. (ok)
2. Local Church accepting requests for children needing coats. (also ok)
3. Weekly 'whats happening' paper says NO costumes for Halloween. (disappointed kids, but acceptable)
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}

Yes, I'm griping about the whole 'separation of church & state' thing... sorry, I just thought 'separation' was a very simple word to understand & follow!!! Heck, I don't even care that the school building is used for AFTER school bible study (completely voluntary) - so long as equal access is offered to everyone. ::sigh::

Can anyone please give rational thought as to why I shouldn't be SO worked up about this? No moral / religious propaganda, please - the law IS very clear, and my calling the school tomorrow won't change Federal mandates...

Billy

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/29/2007 08:28:42 PM · #2

I'm always irate when I get invited to parties, too. Having fun is so overrated!

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

10/29/2007 08:37:30 PM · #3

Keep all the flyers. Next year, you should host a "No Dogma Allowed" block party, and ask the school to distribute your flyer. If they won't, then you have an actionable "case."

The school should have a rubber stamp with a disclaimer on it (or require it to be pre-printed), noting that the school will distribute not-for-profit materials, but that such distribution does not imply endorsement of the event.

I don't know if the Girl Scouts operate under the same charter as the Boy Scouts, but the latter will not admit homosexuals or atheists.

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

10/29/2007 08:52:15 PM · #4

I think the government promotes freedom OF religion... not so much freedom FROM religion.

Hye5

Canon EOS-5D

10/29/2007 08:56:57 PM · #5

Originally posted by alanfreed:

I think the government promotes freedom OF religion... not so much freedom FROM religion.

Agreed... actually the First Amendment reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

10/29/2007 09:18:04 PM · #6

True, but where / how does "separation of church and state" come into play? I'm trying to politely ask for clarification, and HOPE to have a reasoned & polite conversation tomorrow.

(Note to self: Don't confuse Laurie's persona with Karma's reasonable, intelligent, & friendly discussions... again)

10/29/2007 09:21:18 PM · #7

Originally posted by rossbilly:

...(Note to self: Don't confuse Laurie's persona with Karma's reasonable, intelligent, & friendly discussions... again)

Wait, so you want to complain about being invited to a party, but I'M the unreasonable, stupid, and mean one?

10/29/2007 09:33:54 PM · #8

Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by rossbilly:
...(Note to self: Don't confuse Laurie's persona with Karma's reasonable, intelligent, & friendly discussions... again)

Wait, so you want to complain about being invited to a party, but I'M the unreasonable, stupid, and mean one?

Again, you have misread things. No complaints of being invited to a party - in fact, I thought it was rather friendly of them. ;)

For clarification, the 'problem' is that WITHOUT separation of church & state, ANY religious group would be free to hand out dogma (as General already pointed out).

Put another way, do YOU want to see invitations, SENT FROM SCHOOL, to a Satanic party for Halloween,? No? Then it probably isn't a good idea to send ANY such documents, of ANY religions. It's an issue of fairness, not beliefs.

Message edited by author 2007-10-29 21:35:13.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

10/29/2007 09:41:42 PM · #9

Why's the church promoting pagan rituals anyway ?

I could maybe understand them celebrating All Saints Day if they are catholic, but otherwise, it seems odd to celebrate Samhain. Very inclusive of them and all that. I suppose its all about bums on seats.

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

10/29/2007 09:43:15 PM · #10

Is it all that difficult to toss the paper into the trash? Are you afraid that the mention of God on a piece of paper is going to suddenly persuade your daughter to want to go to church, against your wishes?

Sorry... I just get a bit frustrated with this kind of talk. Every year when we get close to Christmas, what's practically the only thing you hear on the news...? Someone stuck a Christmas tree on public property somewhere, and an Atheist (or whomever) got bent out of shape about it, and they're suing. I promise you there will be plenty of new cases that magically pop up at the end of November. As though the presence of this tree is going to reach out and convert a bunch of people to Christianity. Or a menorah is going to suddenly convert people to Judaism. Or whatever.

The whole season has turned from a peaceful, kind-hearted time of the year, to a time of the year when people get bent out of shape for the sake of getting bent out of shape.

I hate to tell ya, but the majority of Americans are Christians. Is it really that hard to just live with that fact...?

muckpond

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

10/29/2007 09:46:39 PM · #11

i'd be pissed too.

the majority of americans are white, too. would it be OK to put in a paper that says "WHITE block party! Everything is awesome (just like white people!)" no. having the majority doesn't mean people in the minority are any less important.

i'm not all about tearing down nativity scenes or anything like that... i just don't like subliminal messages like the one that was sent.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

10/29/2007 09:48:07 PM · #12

Originally posted by alanfreed:

I hate to tell ya, but the majority of Americans are Christians. Is it really that hard to just live with that fact...?

and America is nothing, if it isn't about doing what the majority wants, right ? BTw, the season being talked about in this thread is a strictly pagan ritual - so I'm again confused :)

Message edited by author 2007-10-29 21:49:03.

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

10/29/2007 09:50:08 PM · #13

I also prefer to keep church and state very, very separate. I do not care for churches or other groups to promote their activities/ideas through the public schools. That's just not the place, and it would bother me if my kids came back with such things.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

10/29/2007 09:59:39 PM · #14

Originally posted by rossbilly:

It seems to me people are missing the point that OP is trying to make. He's Ok with two of the three "church-sponsored" flyers â�� coat giveaway and church Halloween party. What bothers him is #4, which is proselytizing in the guise of an invitation. "Everything is FREE: Just like God's salvation!"

That would tick me off also. And I'm a Christian...

R.

Message edited by author 2007-10-29 22:00:00.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

10/29/2007 10:01:48 PM · #15

Isn't it also inaccurate ? I thought the going rate was 10%...

klkitchens

Pentax K-1

Pentax FA 50mm f/1.4 AF

10/29/2007 10:07:20 PM · #16

Originally posted by rossbilly:

Yes, the LAW is CLEAR to understand:

1. Separation of church and state was to keep the state from founding an official religion.

2. The Amendment prohibits CONGRESS (nothing else, no other government entity) from creating a law ESTABLISHING a religion. Period.

Arguably, the department of Education is less Constitutional than the announcement you're upset about.

Message edited by author 2007-10-29 22:21:19.

10/29/2007 10:08:52 PM · #17

Alan, tbh, I have always enjoyed any banter between us, and am NOT trying to incite anything.

That said, the main point is that the majority (your choice of words - sorry...) would like to be able to disperse ideology that may or may not be what everyone agrees on, BUT typically don't want to allow others the same freedom.

FWIW - I just took our daughters to a local church a couple weeks ago, for a public fair (VERY tiny, but it was nice to visit with neighbors young & old). I also LIKE their occasional attendance @ that church; the SAME church Glenda & I were married in nearly 18 years ago. I even shared information about several charitable photography organizations with the pastor & other members, and volunteered my own (negligible) skills to any members in need.

Besides, why force the issue? What's wrong with people getting along, DESPITE religious beliefs, rather than fighting because of them? Seems arguing about it is always more harmful than getting along & ignoring the differences...

(thank you Robert; I'm not always the best @ eloquence, but i AM trying to learn...)

Message edited by author 2007-10-29 22:11:32.

10/29/2007 10:10:43 PM · #18

Originally posted by rossbilly:

Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by rossbilly:
...(Note to self: Don't confuse Laurie's persona with Karma's reasonable, intelligent, & friendly discussions... again)

Wait, so you want to complain about being invited to a party, but I'M the unreasonable, stupid, and mean one?

Again, you have misread things. No complaints of being invited to a party - in fact, I thought it was rather friendly of them. ;)

For clarification, the 'problem' is that WITHOUT separation of church & state, ANY religious group would be free to hand out dogma (as General already pointed out).

Put another way, do YOU want to see invitations, SENT FROM SCHOOL, to a Satanic party for Halloween,? No? Then it probably isn't a good idea to send ANY such documents, of ANY religions. It's an issue of fairness, not beliefs.

Rossbilly, I didn't misread or misunderstand anything, with the possible exception of why you are bent out of shape about it.

I sincerely don't understand why you can't just RSPV with "Regrets" and call it a day.

And so what if any religious group is free to hand out party invitations? BFD. You don't have to go to any of them, if you don't want to. As Alanfreed so eloquently pointed out, separation of church and STATE means freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Other people believe differently than you, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Now, if the school was forcing your daughter to attend, I think you'd have a right to be all up in arms. That doesn't seem to be the case, though, does it? It seems to me like you got a party invite and you don't want to participate. So don't go. The End.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

10/29/2007 10:11:02 PM · #19

Originally posted by Gordon:

Isn't it also inaccurate ? I thought the going rate was 10%...

Now that was funny bro! :-))

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

10/29/2007 10:12:43 PM · #20

Originally posted by rossbilly:

Besides, why force the issue? What's wrong with people getting along, DESPITE religious beliefs, rather than because of them? Seems arguing about it is always more harmful than getting along & ignoring the differences...

Exactly my point. One might argue that you should follow your own advice -- whether it comes in a nice neat friendly package or not.

escapetooz

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

10/29/2007 10:16:26 PM · #21

I'd have to agree with what

Bear_Music said.

Invitations are one thing but spewing declarations such as those is over the line.

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/29/2007 10:26:49 PM · #22

Originally posted by rossbilly:

Alan, tbh, I have always enjoyed any banter between us, and am NOT trying to incite anything.

Ditto here :)

Originally posted by rossbilly:

That said, the main point is that the majority (your choice of words - sorry...) would like to be able to disperse ideology that may or may not be what everyone agrees on, BUT typically don't want to allow others the same freedom.

That's where I'm having an issue... I don't see where the Christian (or other religious communities) are the ones who are rejecting other views. I just don't hear Christians complaining about the presence of menorahs, or Jews getting upset about Santa Claus. It seems that it's always non-religious people attacking religion. One local radio host here in Pittsburgh every year refers to it as the "War Against Christianity" which happens every Christmas.

You used the example of sending home an invitation to a Satanic party... well, no kidding that's going to incite people. Not because it's promoting a "different belief," but because it's promoting something that would likely be completely contrary to what society would deem as acceptable behavior ("Let's go sacrifice some cats tonight!").

Originally posted by "muckpond":

the majority of americans are white, too. would it be OK to put in a paper that says "WHITE block party! Everything is awesome (just like white people!)" no. having the majority doesn't mean people in the minority are any less important.

No, obviously that wouldn't be right, but I don't think that comparing race to religious beliefs is an accurate argument here. Where are Christians making other religions less important? I'm sure it happens in some form, but I would argue that it happens a lot more the other way around.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

10/29/2007 10:33:44 PM · #23

I don't see how a public school has any business advertising for a church???

10/29/2007 10:44:31 PM · #24

I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please}

eta - i am NOT making ANY statement for OR against any religion being right, wrong, or indifferent...

Message edited by author 2007-10-29 22:47:03.