| Author | Thread |
|
|
10/30/2007 12:02:05 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by Hye5:
This situation is not unlike a school extending use of facilities for community use, whether it is the Boy Scouts or a local bible/church group. The school is simply advising parents of community events. The fact that a religious group rather than another community group chose to take advantage of that opportunity does not run afoul of the First Amendment. |
Amen. :)
I have worked at the same school district for 12 years and have seen many flyers for community events sent home with the kiddos. When an event comes up and the organizers bring a stack of flyers to the schools and ask that they be sent home with the students, they usually get sent home with the students. All manner of scouts, sports groups, YMCA, Christmas parades, community trick-or-treat events, summer camps, church breakfasts, local bake sales, community garage sales...all kinds of things. I've never heard a parent complain, even when a church or religious agency is involved. To be honest, though, I've never had the local satanists or atheists come up to have us deliver their flyers for anything. I figure they will find their audience somewhere else other than the local elementary school.
When my own kids bring home folders full of this stuff, I keep the ones I am interested in, and I file 13 the others. It doesn't ruffle my feathers that any of it was sent home to begin with...other than the thought of all the poor trees that were sacrificed in the filling of said folders. ;)
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:03:36 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
There's no reason to get bent out of shape about what is, at the end of the day, a party invitation. |
Ah ha, the source of our disagreement. I consider it advertising as the church is throwing the party to spread their message and increase membership, on top of having fun. However, will they send the 6 year okds home with an invite to my haloween blow out house party with 6 kegs and a prize for the sexiest costume?
now I'm going to bed... |
Good morning, LoudDog. Can I come to your Halloween party? It sounds like fun. I won't take any pictures for evidence, I promise. :)
I'll give you total credit for having a consistent position, even though I lament the loss of candle fund-raising opportunities.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:04:21 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by L2:
I fear you are being deliberately obtuse. Either the school can advertise whatever (including Girl Scout Cookies) or it cannot. You can't (or shouldn't) claim "OMG Religion- NO!!!!" just because you like cookies better than God.
I love cookies, and God. I also love to be invited to parties; however, if I don't want to go to a party, I allow myself to just say, "No thanks, maybe next time."
What I don't love is when people tell me I can't learn of a party that I might want to go to, because they don't want see invitations to anything. |
Laurie, it isn't the invitation, it's the proselytizing! Can't you see that? Can't you address that aspect of the argument?
R. |
Wouldn't the girls scouts registration papers be guilty of this as well? |
GIRL Scouts? Now we have gender discrimination to agrue over too.. I see where in California, Arnold has signed a bill making it a matter of choice for school children which restrooms and locker rooms they want to use. I haven't found the actual link yet, but have been hearing about it.
The way things have been going for the last couple of generations, I don't feel that any of us will have a choice about our religon or lack of it for very much longer. At least not in public.
I think that they should have been a bit more politically correct about the invitations so as not to "offend" anyone, but I like what they said. "Not offend" seems to be the excuse for total lack of traditional values in our culture lately.
I think we will all die someday, and find out for sure about the answers to a lot of questions. When this thread runs it's course, I don't think any of us will have changed much because of it. Let's all try to relax, slow down a little and enjoy a few great photos instead of ranting. Have a cookie. : )
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:16:32 AM · #54 |
mmmmm - cookies again! dangit, now i'm all hungry.
i'm ranted out... still disagree with some stuff here, just too tired to care anymore
Laurie(Gaddis) - we seem to have disagreed more than once lately, and i'm tired of THAT too. i agree to disagree & leave stuff alone. I'll also agree to stop the smart ass comments... on a mutual basis, of course ;)
fair enough?
(pass the damn cookies already, would'ya?)
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:23:55 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Where are Christians making other religions less important? |
When they lobby (quite successfully of late) to have civil law conform to their particular version of religious righteousness? |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:26:24 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I suppose Satanism wasn't THE best example but still... it is classified as a religion. What about paganism, wicca, 'mother nature', etc. {insert ANY religion you find objectionable & re-read the statement please} |
Isn't that kind of like saying "I don't like those people, therefore, I don't want to go to their party, and also, I don't think anyone else should go either? So I'm going to find a law and twist it so that they can't have their party at all, cause that'll teach them not to believe in something different than me?" |
No, it's like saying you can't use the public school system as a free distribution channel for your advertising. The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:45:33 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
Not entirely true... the OP stated:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
The OP was ok with using the public school to promote item 4 (halloween festivities - a party) but not item 5 (also a party).
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:54:36 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
Not entirely true... the OP stated:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
The OP was ok with using the public school to promote item 4 (halloween festivities - a party) but not item 5 (also a party). |
As Bear_Music pointed out, it was not the party invitation which was the problem, but the promotional message which accompanied it.
In the absence of a disclaimer by the school, it can make it appear that the school is endorsing the concept of salvation, which is what they're not allowed to do. Merely advertising a party sponsored by a church (or pretty much any other non-profit) is OK -- including propaganda with the invitation is not. |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 12:56:45 AM · #59 |
| BTW: I think by "friendly" costumes they mean no Freddy Kreuger or Hannibal Lecter outfits; probably prohibits attending as a politician too ... ;-) |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 01:01:40 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
As Bear_Music pointed out, it was not the party invitation which was the problem, but the promotional message which accompanied it.
In the absence of a disclaimer by the school, it can make it appear that the school is endorsing the concept of salvation, which is what they're not allowed to do. Merely advertising a party sponsored by a church (or pretty much any other non-profit) is OK -- including propaganda with the invitation is not. |
Yes, precisely. It boggles my mind that hardly anyone responding to this thread is making that distinction, which I believe is a critical one.
R.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 01:04:38 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
Not entirely true... the OP stated:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
The OP was ok with using the public school to promote item 4 (halloween festivities - a party) but not item 5 (also a party). |
As Bear_Music pointed out, it was not the party invitation which was the problem, but the promotional message which accompanied it.
In the absence of a disclaimer by the school, it can make it appear that the school is endorsing the concept of salvation, which is what they're not allowed to do. Merely advertising a party sponsored by a church (or pretty much any other non-profit) is OK -- including propaganda with the invitation is not. |
Well, that's actually different from what you stated above, which was the issue of using the public school to disseminate community information. I agree that the OP took issue with the content of the flyer... and there's the rub... now we actually do run afoul of the first amendment when we put restrictions on speech by one group and not another. Not that I am taking sides one way or the other, but the two positions are inconsistent. One group can disseminate information and the other can not, based strictly on the content? Who decides what is appropriate and what is not?
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 01:08:01 AM · #62 |
this reminds me of how everyone gets all out of whack
when police brutality gets caught on tape. Until it
gets attention nobody makes a fuss (and logically so)
but off-camera it goes on all the time.
Here, a statement of belief gets into print and wham!
In the public schools statements like this are made
continuously by staff and other students and in a manner
that probably will have a greater impact on a child than
an ad brought home to parents.
I think people who are very concerned with what their
children learn really need to find out what they are
learning. |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 01:10:56 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by Hye5:
I agree that the OP took issue with the content of the flyer... and there's the rub... now we actually do run afoul of the first amendment when we put restrictions on speech by one group and not another. Not that I am taking sides one way or the other, but the two positions are inconsistent. One group can disseminate information and the other can not, based strictly on the content? Who decides what is appropriate and what is not? |
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!"
Sheesh...
The school is supposed to monitor all that stuff and see that, while equal access is provided, objectionable or illegal materials are not disseminated. And the schools have been SPECIFICALLY TOLD by the courts that they cannot be in the position of advocating one religion over another. Or advocating religion at all, for that matter.
The flyer in question crosses that line by virtue of its content, plain and simple.
R.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 01:23:33 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!" |
There's a huge difference between age inappropriate material and the material at issue here.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The school is supposed to monitor all that stuff and see that, while equal access is provided, objectionable or illegal materials are not disseminated. |
Illegal, certainly. Objectionable is still subject to interpretation (as is evidenced by this thread) and controlled by the First Amendment. There is no law restricting dissemination of a flyer which contains a single religious statement.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And the schools have been SPECIFICALLY TOLD by the courts that they cannot be in the position of advocating one religion over another. Or advocating religion at all, for that matter.
The flyer in question crosses that line by virtue of its content, plain and simple. |
The school is not advocating one religion over another unless it chose to disseminate flyers from one religion or church to the exclusion of others. So long as they choose to disseminate such information by any church that wants to advertise festivities, the school is in compliance with the law.
I am not necessarily saying the school should or should not be sending such flyers home, but once it chooses to do so, it must do so fairly, without restricting First Amendment rights (absent illegal or age inappropriate information as discussed above). I am simply restating what I believe to be the law at this time. I understand many people have objections to religious materials and many do not. It is up to those parents to address the issue with the school and reach a consensus on whether materials will be disseminated at all. I don't intend to change anyone's opinions or feelings on the matter, but there seems to be this incorrect belief that there can be no connection whatsoever between public schools and religious organizations and that is simply inaccurate.
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 01:24:24.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 01:27:06 AM · #65 |
| All I got in my son's folder this week was a permission slip for a field trip ... :-) |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 06:06:24 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!" |
There's a huge difference between age inappropriate material and the material at issue here. |
Okay, how about: "Come to the Evolutionists Block Party - Everything is TRUE! (Just like Darwin said)" |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 08:08:32 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
I hate to tell ya, but the majority of Americans are Christians. Is it really that hard to just live with that fact...? |
Unfortunately for Christians, America is NOT all about rule by the majority even though many Christians would like to believe otherwise.
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 08:09:32. |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 08:47:29 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Okay, how about: "Come to the Evolutionists Block Party - Everything is TRUE! (Just like Darwin said)" |
Also in the (un?)religiously-unacceptable category... Apparently you have missed the point: Keep ALL religious prostelyzing out of public schools.
PS - sorry, Dayton Tennessee is jojo's ( TCGuru) territory < |
|
|
|
10/30/2007 09:18:19 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by "muckpond":
the majority of americans are white, too. would it be OK to put in a paper that says "WHITE block party! Everything is awesome (just like white people!)" no. having the majority doesn't mean people in the minority are any less important. |
No, obviously that wouldn't be right, but I don't think that comparing race to religious beliefs is an accurate argument here. Where are Christians making other religions less important? I'm sure it happens in some form, but I would argue that it happens a lot more the other way around. |
OK. but how would you feel if you saw something like this in your kids' school folder:
"ALLAH SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like Allah's Salvation)".
my point is this: if the church had just said "Free Block Party sponsored by Church X," it would read like a party invitation. the way this was phrased, however, makes it sound like a christian-exclusive event. and that's what i don't think is OK.
it's not the invitation that's the issue. it's the message contained within it. i understand why christians may not find this offensive, but chances are they're not looking at it from anyone's perspective but their own.
i've found that it's really difficult to get people to walk a mile in other people's moccasins, so to speak. but i think this world would be a MUCH better place if we could all view it through someone else's eyes once in a while.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 09:22:50 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
I hate to tell ya, but the majority of Americans are Christians. Is it really that hard to just live with that fact...? |
and i'm not picking on you exclusively, alan, but sometimes it IS really hard to live with that fact.
in fact, many of my views do not conform to the "majority" in this country. are you really telling me that i don't have a right to them? or that i should just sit down and let the groups with the most members make the rules for everyone?
how is that fair? how does making rules based on the christian majority promote freedom of religion?
freedom from religion sounds pretty good some days.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 09:23:12 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. My last words as I'm going to bed: the school should not use my 6 year old to peddle advertising for anything!!! Religious party, haunted hayride sponsored by a satanist group or a sale at Bob's Hardware store. If it's not a school event they shouldn't be pushing it. |
THey didn't use her to peddle a single thing. The invite was for HER -- not for her to make copies and distribute to your neighborhood.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 09:23:42 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Snip... That's where I'm having an issue... I don't see where the Christian (or other religious communities) are the ones who are rejecting other views.
...Snip... Where are Christians making other religions less important? I'm sure it happens in some form, but I would argue that it happens a lot more the other way around. |
Need I say more?
Ann Coulter
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 09:23:50 AM · #73 |
dont take this lightly...those flyers are performing the same purpose as those giant seed-pods in "invasion of the body-snatchers", we all know how that ends...
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 09:25:56 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Snip... That's where I'm having an issue... I don't see where the Christian (or other religious communities) are the ones who are rejecting other views.
...Snip... Where are Christians making other religions less important? I'm sure it happens in some form, but I would argue that it happens a lot more the other way around. |
Need I say more?
Ann Coulter |
well, i hardly want to hold up Ann Coulter as defense of my argument. she's just a freakshow all wrapped up in a cocktail dress. but i see your point.
|
|
|
|
10/30/2007 09:30:03 AM · #75 |
I completely agree with you, rossbilly. I think you're right on all counts (e.g., not being offended by the other materials, but taking exception to the propoganda one).
I would object to that last flyer in any context, but I think that in elementary school it's particularly nefarious. I won't go into my own son's experiences, but suffice to say that a young child will easily see this as a promotion by the school and the adults he trusts.
I'm very curious to hear what the principal says today ... please let us all know! |
|
