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10/31/2007 08:56:38 AM · #251 |
Alchemy is pretty cool to, but I wonder if Alchemy is a religion or is it just a science, but then again, can a science be a religion?
And on that note, besides the religion of DIRK BENEDICTUS MAXIMIUS, I think Scientology is the only true religion. Who doesn't want an alien being inside them helping them get acting roles but stunting their growth. |
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10/31/2007 11:03:53 AM · #252 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think we can agree that if more people lived their lives according to Jesus' teachings* and spent less time debating his divinity the world would be a lot better off. |
Amen!.....8>)
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10/31/2007 11:24:56 AM · #253 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Are Christians "accepted" in today's mainstream culture. No. Not really. Are we ridiculed and rejected? Yes. It has happened even on this forum many, many times. |
Perhaps what you see as ridicule and rejection here is actually a self-defense mechanism against the suffocating onslaught of prosyletizing masquerading as "testimony". Some of us have merely had our fill, and have become less shy about saying so. |
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10/31/2007 11:25:35 AM · #254 |
Originally posted by david_c:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
I suggest //answersingenesis.org for some great reading for those open-minded enough to dismiss junk science (like flat earth, evolution, and global warming) |
haha, great! Why not give 'em a Chick Tract while you're at it? |
Wow, those two sites are really funny. |
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10/31/2007 11:45:36 AM · #255 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Literal six-day creation has never been disproven. Geology has made discoveries that fit creation and then guesses that exclude it -- but guesses (like Carbon dating) are not evidence. |
HawkeyeLonewolf,
I didn’t have to time to look for this site yesterday, but here is a lengthy article by a Dr. Roger Wiens, physicist and Christian. He gives an introduction to dating methods and, toward the end of the article addresses many concerns regarding the accuracy of those methods.
Radiometric Dating from a Christian Perspective
If you would care for further reading as to the age of the earth and how the scientific community came to its conclusion, The Age of the Earth, though a bit technical, has been highly recommended as an excellent resource for the interested layman.
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11/01/2007 03:33:49 PM · #256 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Several papers came home with our 6 year old daughter today:
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
Yes, I'm griping about the whole 'separation of church & state' thing... sorry, I just thought 'separation' was a very simple word to understand & follow!!! Heck, I don't even care that the school building is used for AFTER school bible study (completely voluntary) - so long as equal access is offered to everyone. ::sigh::
Can anyone please give rational thought as to why I shouldn't be SO worked up about this? No moral / religious propaganda, please...Billy |
Yes! I CAN give you a rational thought!
First of all, We would all do well to remember that the discounting of belief for reasons of dislike of person holding belief or dislike of the apparent imposition placed upon your own belief system by the opposing belief is in very nature emotional, not rational.
Secondly, Belief/Faith in God is not inherently irrational because the Person believed is unseen. Intelligent Faith is the only faith I will allow in my heart...because it has withstood the test of Time and of ridicule...demonstrating - at least to me - that I believe in the God Who knows my need for rational reasons to believe, my need for consistent character on His part to use as precedence for present and future belief, and my need for Hope in the face of staggering opposition to my innate human desire to be liked.
NOW...
May I understand that you would defend your belief about freedom from imposition...for my benenfit, if I am the one expressing discomfort...just as you wish me to defend your life from such discomfort?
You appear to feel this imposition due to material you did not want and did not request being forced on your family.
I can RESPECT that!
Can you RESPECT the fact that I don't want my progeny to learn about alternate lifestyles, condoms & "safe sex", nor Eastern mysticism being presented with the thin veneer of Relaxation Techniques by public school teachers either?
If I am being requested not to promote my "religious" propaganda, do I have the same right to request that you not promote your "religious" propaganda that "separation of church and state" was in fact part of the Constitutional Convention? (Not substantiated...)
As has been pointed out to me many times, individual socio-political and religious beliefs are intensely volitile/emotional and are so because they are each...intensely personal. The root cause of all this intensity is IMHO the most basic of human needs...the Need for Significance.
Finally, it is very easy for any human to view agreement with one's own viewpoint as intelligent objectivity, and disagreement with one's viewpoint as irrational, illogical, unintelligent, emotional, and even offensively-religious in a World where the global standard religion is Humanism.
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11/01/2007 03:48:21 PM · #257 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Intelligent Faith is the only faith I will allow in my heart...because it has withstood the test of Time and of ridicule |
No god passes that test, nor will yours when enough time passes. Your statement makes sense about religion in general, but not any specific deity or faith. Plenty of gods have been forgotten, despite having been fanatically worshiped by their followers.
I think one of the most ironic things about 'religion' in general is that hell must be overwhelmingly full of god(s) fearing people - they just all bet on the wrong horse.
Message edited by author 2007-11-01 15:48:49. |
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11/01/2007 04:03:17 PM · #258 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
If I am being requested not to promote my "religious" propaganda, do I have the same right to request that you not promote your "religious" propaganda that "separation of church and state" was in fact part of the Constitutional Convention? (Not substantiated...) |
No.
Originally posted by 777STAN:
... a World where the global standard religion is Humanism. |
Tosh. The standard is god-belief. |
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11/01/2007 04:21:55 PM · #259 |
Stan, I do appreciate your taking the time to respond, AND refraining from making personal attacks, as often happens in these threads. My response is not aimed at anyone, but is a statement of my opinion.
Quite simply, I feel that the majority of people would NOT approve of many 'alternative' religions promoting their own beliefs within the schools, and it would definitely be disallowed in my community (it HAS been already). Therefore, I don't feel that ANY should be allowed. Again, it is a matter of fairness and equality.
For example, near the beginning of this thread, Alan reacted to the mere MENTION of a Satanist by saying:
"You used the example of sending home an invitation to a Satanic party... well, no kidding that's going to incite people. Not because it's promoting a "different belief," but because it's promoting something that would likely be completely contrary to what society would deem as acceptable behavior ("Let's go sacrifice some cats tonight!").
***
I'm sorry, but that is sheerly judgmental in my eyes. Regardless WHAT a person or group labels themselves, it does NOT define their actions / deeds / morals... and it definitely does not make them a cat-killer! In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with them being law-abiding, productive members of society. The WHOLE point is that there is no need to judge people based on their religion, OR THEIR LACK OF IT!!!!!
Please do not confuse this with some desire to eliminate religion in the schools. On the contrary - I much prefer ALL religions be discussed in an open forum, where NO 'right or wrong' is promoted.
*** Alan, again, no offense intended.
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11/01/2007 04:36:16 PM · #260 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Please do not confuse this with some desire to eliminate religion in the schools. On the contrary - I much prefer ALL religions be discussed in an open forum, where NO 'right or wrong' is promoted.
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The study of religion is not prohibited in public schools. (e.g. a religious studies class)
The practice of religion is prohibited. (e.g. prayer, professions of faith, preaching etc.)
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11/01/2007 04:46:57 PM · #261 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The practice of religion is prohibited. (e.g. prayer, professions of faith, preaching etc.) |
Can we clear that up some... prayer is not/never has been prohibited in school. School officials are just not allowed to force prayer on students.
If a student desires to pray, they are more than welcomed to do so.
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11/01/2007 05:00:56 PM · #262 |
| rossbilly - did you ever contact the school? I'm curious. (Sorry if I missed this above). |
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11/01/2007 05:06:33 PM · #263 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
Intelligent Faith is the only faith I will allow in my heart...because it has withstood the test of Time and of ridicule |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
No god passes that test, nor will yours when enough time passes. Your statement makes sense about religion in general, but not any specific deity or faith. Plenty of gods have been forgotten, despite having been fanatically worshiped by their followers.
I think one of the most ironic things about 'religion' in general is that hell must be overwhelmingly full of god(s) fearing people - they just all bet on the wrong horse. |
That's an issue that I have when any religion tries to convert someone. They just automatically have that attitude that they are correct in their assessment of how it works.
Trying to be openminded, I know that faith has its place in anyone's heart that chooses it, but that faith in and of itself, though there can be guidance and suggestion as to how it works, still is a very personal choice and beliefs will only be decided by oneself.
Once I learned that, I was comfortable in my faith and beliefs, and that in turn helped me to select the best religious path that worked well for me to enhance my belief system and that in turn helped me spiritually as well.
It'd be wonderful if kids could be taught ways that would help them develop and get in touch with their own spirituality so that they in turn would be better equipped to make the choices that will help them later in life.
That's why I'm in favor of touching on religious education as long as it's offered as education relative to its beliefs and history as opposed to being the "Right Way".
Let's face it, no matter how strongly someone believes that they have the answer, they cannot offer irrefutable proof to an intelligent skeptic, and they won't sway those already convinced that they know the way.
And really, huimans have demonstrated since the beginning that the more you try and jam something down their throats, the more resistance that you'll meet.
I bought a funny bumper sticker at a street fair a little while ago and it said: "The last time we mixed religion and politics, people were burned at the stake!". Food for thought.
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11/01/2007 06:00:15 PM · #264 |
Yeah, as I reflect on that statement, I do feel a little close-minded, particularly when I review all of the positive contributions made to society by so many notable Satanists. I promise to look in our local newspaper to see when their next charitable event is taking place so I can make a hefty donation as a form of retribution for my statements.
Originally posted by rossbilly:
For example, near the beginning of this thread, Alan reacted to the mere MENTION of a Satanist by saying:
"You used the example of sending home an invitation to a Satanic party... well, no kidding that's going to incite people. Not because it's promoting a "different belief," but because it's promoting something that would likely be completely contrary to what society would deem as acceptable behavior ("Let's go sacrifice some cats tonight!").
***
I'm sorry, but that is sheerly judgmental in my eyes. |
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11/01/2007 06:22:36 PM · #265 |
Thank You as well for an air of civility on this thread...for the most part. I realize I can never save anyone!
What a relief to know that I was never commanded anywhere by anyone to do that! Threads like this one provide a fine service to those of us who enjoy a little mental sparring,...Just to keep toned!
I can't speak for anybody but myself, however, I enjoy butting heads with all the young and aging bucks here who need a place to keep masculinity in shape in a world that tries to marginalize masculinity while giving the nod evangelistically to the religion of Femininism (another belief forced upon me) in the marketplace, schoolhouse, churchhouse, and politics.
Finally, let us never forget that the Hypothesis of Evolution has little proof that has not been "spun." It cannot be proven by the Scientific Method.
Bottom Line: Evolution is just as much religion as mine is because those who believe in Evolution must first believe in foundational premises that support Evolution,...just as I readily admit that I believe certain premises in order to believe that my World View/Belief is true.
Footnote to standing the Test of Time: "When the Beatles arrived in the U.S. around 1960, John Lenin said, "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock and roll or Christianity."
Um,...O-kay!??!
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11/01/2007 06:27:05 PM · #266 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Yeah, as I reflect on that statement, I do feel a little close-minded, particularly when I review all of the positive contributions made to society by so many notable Satanists. I promise to look in our local newspaper to see when their next charitable event is taking place so I can make a hefty donation as a form of retribution for my statements. |
Speaking of close-minded.....Here in the Northeast, a York, Pennsylvania man won a lawsuit aginst a "Church" for $11 million.
Why do I say "Church"? The link: //www.godhatesfags.com/main/aboutwbc.html
This is kind of their mission statement.
And their views on our country? Keep this in mind when you hear someone spouting First Amendment rights:
//www.godhatesamerica.com/
Here's where they talk about what a good thing it is that they're getting all the great publicity for losing an $11 million suit.
This is the scariest stuff I've ever seen and it's done under the umbrella of a church. This is why education of your children is important. so that they understand just how ugly PEOPLE can be!
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11/01/2007 06:29:49 PM · #267 |
Originally posted by 777STAN:
I can't speak for anybody but myself, however, I enjoy butting heads with all the young and aging bucks here who need a place to keep masculinity in shape in a world that tries to marginalize masculinity while giving the nod evangelistically to the religion of Femininism (another belief forced upon me) in the marketplace, schoolhouse, churchhouse, and politics. |
How does acknowledging the woman's place in the big picture as an equal marginalize masculinity in any way?
That's just crap!
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11/01/2007 06:32:17 PM · #268 |
That figures.... (that I'd not explain my point in a way everyone would understand). ::sigh::
Again, regardless what a group calls itself (agnostic, wiccan, buddhist, etc. <<<<<< "etc" INCLUDES satanists!), NO one should judge them or form an opinion about them without first hearing that person's viewpoint.
Alan, should you find yourself in this thread again, please consider the statement above. Sorry, but you have done exactly what I said - not once, but TWICE now. I'm not attacking you, merely pointing out a behavior. You said that:
"I don't see where the Christian (or other religious communities) are the ones who are rejecting other views. I just don't hear Christians complaining about the presence of menorahs, or Jews getting upset about Santa Claus. It seems that it's always non-religious people attacking religion."
My friend, I am afraid you just DID (complain of another religion)...
As I've asked others before in this thread, please consider the things I have said here. If you simply read ONLY the posts I've made here, you may notice a different tone. I'm not judging anyone, or saying that religion has no place in schools, or that ANY one group should have more rights than others.
I'm merely stating that, if ANY groups should be excluded from presenting their perspective, then it is only fair to exclude ALL such groups.
Billy
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11/01/2007 06:40:31 PM · #269 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I'm merely stating that, if ANY groups should be excluded from presenting their perspective, then it is only fair to exclude ALL such groups. |
This has been your stance the whole time, right?
And to exclude them *all* from using your daughter's school and their staff for their promotion, correct?
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11/01/2007 06:48:13 PM · #270 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Yeah, as I reflect on that statement, I do feel a little close-minded, particularly when I review all of the positive contributions made to society by so many notable Satanists. I promise to look in our local newspaper to see when their next charitable event is taking place so I can make a hefty donation as a form of retribution for my statements. |
Speaking of close-minded.....Here in the Northeast, a York, Pennsylvania man won a lawsuit aginst a "Church" for $11 million.
Why do I say "Church"? The link: //www.godhatesfags.com/main/aboutwbc.html
This is kind of their mission statement.
And their views on our country? Keep this in mind when you hear someone spouting First Amendment rights:
//www.godhatesamerica.com/
Here's where they talk about what a good thing it is that they're getting all the great publicity for losing an $11 million suit.
This is the scariest stuff I've ever seen and it's done under the umbrella of a church. This is why education of your children is important. so that they understand just how ugly PEOPLE can be! |
Please on behalf of me and the other followers of Jesus, do not associate us with that group. God doesn't hate anyone. He hates sin, but he doesn't hate sinners. On the cross, all of our sin was laid upon Jesus, and when He died, all of that sin died with Him. He then rose again without the sin, and now God sees us as blameless and pure. Please don't assume that all Christians are as these people are. We don't hate people, we may fail at loving people as we are supposed to, but we don't hate anyone. The people that hate others aren't on the same page as God, they may believe in Him, but their belief that anyone should be hated is completely off of what God has commanded of us: To Love One Another As Yourself.
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11/01/2007 06:48:52 PM · #271 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
...I'm merely stating that, if ANY groups should be excluded from presenting their perspective, then it is only fair to exclude ALL such groups.
Billy |
And yet, you have failed to provide a shred of evidence that ANY group was excluded from presenting their perspective. |
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11/01/2007 06:54:40 PM · #272 |
Actually, I haven't given the first shred of evidence that the papers referenced in my OP were real either. Does my stating THAT automatically become questionable too?
BTW - How did I "fail" to do something that was not asked of me? AFAIK, that is the first time I even MENTIONED such an event occurring!
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11/01/2007 06:57:24 PM · #273 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
This is the scariest stuff I've ever seen and it's done under the umbrella of a church. This is why education of your children is important. so that they understand just how ugly PEOPLE can be! |
Originally posted by ryand:
Please on behalf of me and the other followers of Jesus, do not associate us with that group. God doesn't hate anyone. He hates sin, but he doesn't hate sinners. On the cross, all of our sin was laid upon Jesus, and when He died, all of that sin died with Him. He then rose again without the sin, and now God sees us as blameless and pure. Please don't assume that all Christians are as these people are. We don't hate people, we may fail at loving people as we are supposed to, but we don't hate anyone. The people that hate others aren't on the same page as God, they may believe in Him, but their belief that anyone should be hated is completely off of what God has commanded of us: To Love One Another As Yourself. |
Please reread the little excerpt above. *I* make no claims of affiliation of those people as an example of a church....I stated that they hide behind the guise of one.
What I made the point about in capital letters was how ugly PEOPLE can be.....and that we should teach our children better things than hatred and intolerance.
I try not to make generalizations and tar good people with the sins of others.
Isn't there a passage about not visiting the sins of the father on the son?......8>)
Sage advice!
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11/01/2007 06:58:18 PM · #274 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
I'm merely stating that, if ANY groups should be excluded from presenting their perspective, then it is only fair to exclude ALL such groups. |
This has been your stance the whole time, right?
And to exclude them *all* from using your daughter's school and their staff for their promotion, correct? |
Jeb, I'll try to re-read all of my own posts here, with an open opinion of how things might have been perceived. It HAS been a couple days... :)
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11/01/2007 06:59:48 PM · #275 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
...I'm merely stating that, if ANY groups should be excluded from presenting their perspective, then it is only fair to exclude ALL such groups.
Billy |
And yet, you have failed to provide a shred of evidence that ANY group was excluded from presenting their perspective. |
IIRC, his ORIGINAL premise was that all groups should be excluded from distributing their "word" in his daughter's school.
And somehow that got twisted around to him being pissed off about an invitation to a party.
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