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10/18/2007 08:26:55 PM · #201 |
Edit: I'm censoring myself like I usually do after I post on a whim.
Message edited by author 2007-10-18 20:40:17. |
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10/18/2007 08:27:29 PM · #202 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
3) leave this feature as is and pray |
Or, maybe people could choose to comment on Recently Uploaded photos instead of voting? |
Works for me, too :-)
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10/18/2007 08:27:51 PM · #203 |
Laurie I have to tell you that it seems like you're trying to build momentum here for a change in the voting guidlines.
Your argument seems to be that if it appeases some members who don't wish to view nudity at all or at inapropriate times then why not try and find a solution.
To me, this is an example of individuals passing responsibility onto the provider rather than taking responsibility for themselves. Just a subtle way of imposing on others if you ask me. Which you didn't, but I'll say it anyway.
From what I can tell, there was a grand total of two, 2, too, twoooo posters here that where strongly opposed to nudity being visible during voting, although my take is that at least one is opposed to nudity in all forms... period. Enter observation here. No challengtes entered and no money paid.
It is a slippery slope. All you have to do is observe the progression of events over the past couple of years to know that one thing DOES lead to another... and another. Leroy as silly as it sounds is a little right.:P You don't want to see, hit the button and you won't. For good... why? because I don't trust that you'll vote fairly anyway. Just a personal opinion of course.
There's been talk of what's rediculous. What I find rediculous is that this conversation is taking place within a 'world class' photography site at all. Maybe you haven't noticed but I have. Many of the very top notch photogs from around the globe who regularily participated here (nude and otherwise) have gone away. Where to, I wonder. I'll bet my bottom dollar that wherever they've gone, this debate isn't taking place.
R |
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10/18/2007 08:28:03 PM · #204 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Off-topic: one of those needs to be changed, don't you agree? There is a bit of conflict between the two, with one being more prominent than the other. |
I know! Let's have POLL. :)
J/K You are probably quite right. In the meantime... no harm, no foul.
Back on topic: Can anyone think of a reasonable work-around for this situation? |
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10/18/2007 08:31:05 PM · #205 |
| From what I see, either we need to stop voting at work or we should scan the thumbs before voting. I try to scan thumbs before voting just to make sure there isn't something that I may not want to see full size. I think that keeping voting the way it is could be the only fair way that doesn't skew voting. |
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10/18/2007 08:37:44 PM · #206 |
Ultimately, the last thing DPC needs is to futher complicate and convolute the already polemical voting process. While yes, on rare occasions, someone brings up a very valid point that we can all agree on, we will get nowhere with an argument like the one brought up in this thread. Despite its validity, we are arguing over morals -- the fairness debate is only secondary as a result of the initial argument.
I say, suck it up and deal with the reality of being part of an online art community.
Message edited by author 2007-10-18 20:38:28. |
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10/18/2007 08:40:19 PM · #207 |
Originally posted by Qart:
... What I find rediculous is that this conversation is taking place within a 'world class' photography site at all. Maybe you haven't noticed but I have. Many of the very top notch photogs from around the globe who regularily participated here (nude and otherwise) have gone away. Where to, I wonder. I'll bet my bottom dollar that wherever they've gone, this debate isn't taking place.
R |
I know darned well the places they go, as I've started following them while secretly naked beneath my ninja uniform ;) They are headed for places like Fred Miranda, PhotoCamel, OnExposure, Glamour1, etc. While I don't consider myself on their skill level, I AM learning alot, and know full well WHY they initially distrust their new members:
Because they came from places like this one, and know the censorship & 'baggage' that can follow. I'm not threatening to leave DPC - frankly, I would never bother to announce such a thing. I'm simply stating that Rudy is correct, and the proof shows up in the number of persons who've left these forums before us. Oh, and that he isn't the only one to have noticed that fact. ;)
Billy
Message edited by author 2007-10-18 22:13:02.
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10/18/2007 08:40:35 PM · #208 |
The SC has set a precedence by allowing filtering of SOME nude images. This could very well fall into the same catagory that AOL fell into years ago when they were censoring SOME messages and not others. They got slapped for it big time. They either had to censor ALL objectional content or NO content. They set the tone from that point on by not censoring ANY content... other than the ton of mail they dump when their mail servers get busy, but that's not censoring.
Because DPC has chosen to allow filtering of nudes, they have set the precedence that those not wanting to view those nudes can view with the reletive assumption that they won't have to view any nudes. But because DPC allows some cases where nudes are displayed, they have opened up a big can of worms... maybe not today and maybe not in some countries, but it could very well affect the site in some, including the US.
Either DPC should allow filtering in ALL cases or they should take out filtering ALL together. Don't do it half way.
And for those that think by not showing nudity during voting for those that don't want to see it will skew the results any more than it's already skewed a hundred different ways, you don't understand statistics or how the voters vote on here. It's intirely possible it could skew it the other way.
And those that say the people that want the filter are trying to push their views on everyone else but are over looking that you are also pushing your views on those that don't agree with you.
Sometimes, when issues like this comes up, DPC can really show it's dark side.
Mike
Message edited by author 2007-10-18 20:42:19.
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10/18/2007 08:44:53 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by L2:
It sounds like you are saying that user preferences should not be respected by DPC because DPC shouldn't care about customer service? |
Shouldn't customer service be designed to meet the preferences of the majority of the customers not one or a few? If that's they case simply put it to a vote. People will express if they can live with skued scores or are willing to see the occasional nude, and I do strees the word occasional.
However, there will need to a minimum percentage of members who vote to change the policy. |
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10/18/2007 08:45:38 PM · #210 |
Originally posted by Qart:
Laurie I have to tell you that it seems like you're trying to build momentum here for a change in the voting guidlines.
Your argument seems to be that if it appeases some members who don't wish to view nudity at all or at inapropriate times then why not try and find a solution.
To me, this is an example of individuals passing responsibility onto the provider rather than taking responsibility for themselves. Just a subtle way of imposing on others if you ask me. Which you didn't, but I'll say it anyway.
From what I can tell, there was a grand total of two, 2, too, twoooo posters here that where strongly opposed to nudity being visible during voting, although my take is that at least one is opposed to nudity in all forms... period. Enter observation here. No challengtes entered and no money paid....R |
I appreciate the opportunity to address this. At it's core, this is a website suggestion. I (personally) give this the same care and consideration as any other non-provocative-issue website suggestion under debate.
Whether any particular webiste suggestion passes responsibility for anything onto the provider rather than user is of less concern to me (personally) than working to provide a fun and enjoyable experience for everyone that visits here. Your points regarding membership fees are taken; however, finance is not the sole concern.
What IS of concern is the emotional attachment some users exhibit to this particular issue. When one group of users says to the other "Don't like it? Leave!" -- I see this as a problem.
I'm not sure how this got translated into "building momentum for a change in voting guidelines" but if I was something that I said, I reserve the right to claim I got it from the back of a matchbook cover. :) |
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10/18/2007 08:54:49 PM · #211 |
Originally posted by MikeJ:
And those that say the people that want the filter are trying to push their views on everyone else but are over looking that you are also pushing your views on those that don't agree with you. |
But context is more important in an issue like this. And if a majority view means anything at all (as it certainly has with other website suggestions that have gone nowhere), that should be a considering factor too. |
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10/18/2007 09:09:23 PM · #212 |
Originally posted by MikeJ:
... And those that say the people that want the filter are trying to push their views on everyone else but are over looking that you are also pushing your views on those that don't agree with you.
Sometimes, when issues like this comes up, DPC can really show it's dark side.
Mike |
... all the while, both sides yelling:
"But THEIR view limits MY ability to enjoy this site!"
catch-22? Do whatever the majority agrees upon. Either way, some will stay & some will leave - nothing new. I personally do NOT like censorship. There. I voted. Done.
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10/18/2007 09:14:15 PM · #213 |
First, Laurie - thanks for being an actual voice of reason in this thread. After pages of personal attacks, moral debates, and the obvious popcorn, dead horse, and "why are we discussing this" posts.
What does the majority have to do with my preferences on how I prefer to view the site? What does it take away from you if adult images are hidden in my view? Like many others have said, it'll be done manually anyway, as will cherry picking your favorites.
I think MikeJ explained the voting skew issue pretty well a few posts up. It just won't make a huge difference - if anything make adult images graded on a more fair scale.
And how is this a slippery slope? Adult content is incomparable to sunsets, flowers and kitty cats because it's a moral issue, and one that is widely accommodated in society - movies/games have rating systems, nude bars have age limits, etc, etc.
Anyway, just thought I'd speak up again since somebody rational graced this thread. =) |
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10/18/2007 09:20:14 PM · #214 |
This discussion is pathetic at best. Since when does a valueless vote that results in no real prize or little prestige and has no worth outside of DPC have more value than the moral belief of individuals. Come-on guys and gals, quit judging each others morals and beliefs and allow a person that does not want to see nudes at any time to block them but still participate in challenges and voting. If people don't want to see nudes and they are forced to do so the likely vote is a very low one so the numbers already are "skewed".
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I can't believe people here judge others morals and force nudity on people who just don't want to see it. Come-on. There is no valid reason not to block nudes for viewing and voting for those who choose to do so ... no reason at all. This does not force anything onto anyone else, ya'll still have free expression to photograph anything you want, it removes nothing, but safeguards kids and jobs.
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This is incredible to even discuss. Don't take anything away from anyone just allow moral standards to apply to individuals that choose. Stop the damn judgements! |
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10/18/2007 09:20:16 PM · #215 |
| Essentially, the proposal amounts to hiding entries from some of the judges based upon content. To consider such a thing in the context of an art competition is more than a little mind boggling IMO. The only time you can't hide nudes here is during voting, so the preference already exists... if you don't want to risk seeing nudes or offensive images then don't vote. Otherwise, you should accept that voting in this environment requires looking at what the artists want you to see. If you just want to look at what you like, then that's what browsing is for. Enjoy. |
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10/18/2007 09:20:18 PM · #216 |
Originally posted by smurfguy:
Adult content is incomparable to sunsets, flowers and kitty cats because it's a moral issue, and one that is widely accommodated in society - movies/games have rating systems, nude bars have age limits, etc, etc. |
The content on this site considered by some to be "adult" is not. |
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10/18/2007 09:21:57 PM · #217 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
...safeguards kids and jobs. |
Part of the argument is that said safeguarding should be done by adults who should be responsible enough to know better. |
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10/18/2007 09:25:33 PM · #218 |
Originally posted by smurfguy:
I think MikeJ explained the voting skew issue pretty well a few posts up. It just won't make a huge difference - if anything make adult images graded on a more fair scale.
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Still gonna be a nasty nasty thread the first time a nude image reaches ribbon. "I didn't vote on that image. It did not deserve the ribbon. This is an atrocity."
This is a no-win situation, because it is based on moral beliefs that are not universal. You can try to rationalize it as not being such, but it is.
Why can't we waste time viewing nude at work? If it is not a moral issue, then viewing nudes is no different that playing solitaire. The reason you can't view nudes at work is because moral code dictates it is inappropriate.
The child protection argument is a moral based argument, The Christian argument is a moral based argument. There have been no arguments from proponents that were not moral based, because there are none.
Nudity, violence, snakes easting rats are all moral based arguments, and thus you can not find a universal answer. You can make compromises, but no single answer will appease all.
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10/18/2007 09:26:56 PM · #219 |
Sorry but bullshit! If nudes were only in "nude" challenges then it would be possible. Since many different types of challenges contain nudes it's impossible unless it becomes an X or R rates site. Do we really want the parents to safeguard kids and protect their jobs by no participating. Hell photography is a kids activity. There is no reason that an individual parent or adult cannot choose to insulate themself from soft porn. It doesn't effect anyone else, it's an idividual choice and nothing else. Does DPC really want families and individuals to go elsewhere because they may lose a job? Again BS
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
...safeguards kids and jobs. |
Part of the argument is that said safeguarding should be done by adults who should be responsible enough to know better. |
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10/18/2007 09:29:24 PM · #220 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
Sorry but bullshit! |
Oh! Thanks for your reasoned response. |
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10/18/2007 09:39:05 PM · #221 |
Viewing the images during voting and viewing images on this site in general are two different things.
I have the box checked so when I'm viewing the home page, challenge results containing nude images don't show up.
I choose not to vote at work on a challenge that may contain nude images. Problem solved. |
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10/18/2007 09:40:35 PM · #222 |
[quote=PhantomEWO] Sorry but bullshit! If nudes were only in "nude" challenges then it would be possible. Since many different types of challenges contain nudes it's impossible unless it becomes an X or R rates site. Do we really want the parents to safeguard kids and protect their jobs by no participating. Hell photography is a kids activity. There is no reason that an individual parent or adult cannot choose to insulate themself from soft porn. It doesn't effect anyone else, it's an idividual choice and nothing else. Does DPC really want families and individuals to go elsewhere because they may lose a job? Again BS
Let me simplify for you.
Scenario 1
Challenge may have nude (aka... porn, smut, XXX) images
I'm at work
Better to wait till I'm not at work (cause I wouldn't want to lose my job)
Scenario 2
I'm not responsible enough to control my life
Start a thread requesting a change in fundamental guidlines (because I'm not responsible enough to control myself)
Call everyone judgemental and anti moral when they disagree
Wait 6 months and try again
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10/18/2007 09:41:04 PM · #223 |
Here, I'll offer a great suggestion for families and those who don't want to see nudes anymore. A great site with contests and PRIZES. A place to critic and an all-around friendlier place to learn photography.
Photo Contest and Family Friendly |
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10/18/2007 09:45:41 PM · #224 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
Here, I'll offer a great suggestion for families and those who don't want to see nudes anymore. A great site with contests and PRIZES. A place to critic and an all-around friendlier place to learn photography.
Photo Contest and Family Friendly |
You forgot to mention lame and horribly slow and very much commercially oriented.
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10/18/2007 09:48:45 PM · #225 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Off-topic: one of those needs to be changed, don't you agree? There is a bit of conflict between the two, with one being more prominent than the other. |
I know! Let's have POLL. :)
J/K You are probably quite right. In the meantime... no harm, no foul.
Back on topic: Can anyone think of a reasonable work-around for this situation? |
Yes, don't change a thing and stick Scalvert's post in big red letters on the sign up page of the site. Since apparently the verbage that is already there is not clear enough.
Originally posted by "Scalvert The Wise":
The only time you can't hide nudes here is during voting, so the preference already exists... if you don't want to risk seeing nudes or offensive images then don't vote. Otherwise, you should accept that voting in this environment requires looking at what the artists want you to see. If you just want to look at what you like, then that's what browsing is for. Enjoy. |
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