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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Where do I stand LEGALLY?
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 07/06/2007 03:18:56 PM · #1
This all started when I got an FEE error on my D200, I took it to the shop where i got it from, they sent it back to Nikon UK under warranty for repair.. 4 weeks later they send my camera back with note attached 'serviced and cleaned, found nothing else wrong' the shop called Nikon UK and explained the camera STILL had the original error and they said to send it back AGAIN this time with the lens too. We did that. 3 weeks later it comes back working perfectly.. happy happy me... ok, that was all in early april end of march time... I noticed the other day my pics were a bit blotchy so i took the camera to another shop and asked about cleaning the sensor, the guy took a look at it with a sensor scope and pointed out it had a big scratch on the sensor itself... SHOCK!!!! back to the shop I got it from, they sent it back to Nikon.. I got a call today from the shop saying Nikon said it is nothing to do with them, warranty is out so they want £400 to replace the sensor... OK NOW I AM ANGRY!!!!

What can I do about this?.. they have been the only ones anywhere near my sensor as they themselves claim in a repair sheet but now they are demanding payment.. the camera is STILL under warranty.. I do not want to call them just yet because Im too emotional for that and wil just explode..

Any advice gratefully recieved, Thank you.
 07/06/2007 03:21:33 PM · #2
Sell it on eBay as-is.

Buy a Canon.

Problem solved.
 07/06/2007 03:25:56 PM · #3
Call Nikon and explain. Get manager if you have to.
 07/06/2007 03:49:07 PM · #4
I agree with Nikolai, talk to someone higher up at Nikon, possibly even asking the shop you are dealing with who their Nikon rep is and get him/her to go to bat for you.

If you have to, mention to them that you are part of this huge online community and that is getting discussed.

Forget the Canon comment...I have heard MANY scary stories about their service as well...and as we all know, Nikons are much better cameras. :)
 07/06/2007 04:14:34 PM · #5
I'll never switch to Canon, I've invested too much money in Nikon to do that but the thought did cross my mind when they told me it was nothing to do with them and to pay £400. Im thinking of getting my lawyer involved and also recording the conversation when I call them about it on Monday..

I would never sell it on ebay as-is either I would rather try to replace the scratched sensor cover myself first..

I really wanted to know where I stand within the LAW if I can DEMAND they replace it or if they can actually deny all knowledge and get away with it.
 07/06/2007 04:20:28 PM · #6
Originally posted by MAK:
I'll never switch to Canon, I've invested too much money in Nikon to do that but the thought did cross my mind when they told me it was nothing to do with them and to pay £400. Im thinking of getting my lawyer involved and also recording the conversation when I call them about it on Monday..

I would never sell it on ebay as-is either I would rather try to replace the scratched sensor cover myself first..

I really wanted to know where I stand within the LAW if I can DEMAND they replace it or if they can actually deny all knowledge and get away with it.


I dunno about the UK, but in the US, the burden of proof will be on you. That means you would have to prove (by a preponderance of evidence) that they damaged your camera. That could cost way more than what they're asking for repairs if you were to lose in court.

Does the UK have an equivalent to small claims court for small matters?

I'd take the matter higher within the Nikon organization before I made a call to my lawyer.
 07/06/2007 04:25:58 PM · #7
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by MAK:
I'll never switch to Canon, I've invested too much money in Nikon to do that but the thought did cross my mind when they told me it was nothing to do with them and to pay £400. Im thinking of getting my lawyer involved and also recording the conversation when I call them about it on Monday..

I would never sell it on ebay as-is either I would rather try to replace the scratched sensor cover myself first..

I really wanted to know where I stand within the LAW if I can DEMAND they replace it or if they can actually deny all knowledge and get away with it.


I dunno about the UK, but in the US, the burden of proof will be on you. That means you would have to prove (by a preponderance of evidence) that they damaged your camera. That could cost way more than what they're asking for repairs if you were to lose in court.

Does the UK have an equivalent to small claims court for small matters?

I'd take the matter higher within the Nikon organization before I made a call to my lawyer.


Yeh I think I will call them on Monday and let them know how offended I am and as to HOW do they believe the sensor came to be scratched.. I never knew it was down to me to proove it... I have the repair sheet were they claim they serviced and cleaned the camera and sent it back with the same error it had originally.. I see that as incopetance step 1 from Nikon.. has to swing in my favour a bit..
07/06/2007 04:30:26 PM · #8
Before you demand, ask nicely. Then ask for managers, demand, involve lawers.
 07/06/2007 04:40:17 PM · #9
Originally posted by Nikolai1024:
Before you demand, ask nicely. Then ask for managers, demand, involve lawers.


You must be kidding right??? Involve lawyers... good lord, the amount of money being discussed here would be eaten by lawyers before you could say "Boo".

Personally I support your contention that one needs to call to the people in charge and involve persons of authority. If that fails, I remain convinced you can find other viable alternatives... but lawyers??? more money down the drain.

Ray

Message edited by author 2007-07-06 16:41:25.
 07/06/2007 04:40:37 PM · #10
I agree on being nice. Be humble.
Represent yourself in a professional manner and wouldn't hurt to let them know your affiliations with the online digital photography community, and one of the reasons you upgraded to the D200, was based on Manny's tremendous success with his Nikon, and how they have treated him.

You are an ambassador for them and have a lot of potential to spread good words or bad to the community. Just make sure it doesn't come off as a threat to bad moth them if things aren't going well in the negotiations. If you find yourself with your back against the NO wall, test the waters and offer a compromise. You'll cover the labor if they'll cover the parts. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

Going to be a tough one to prove though. That's the bad part.
Wish you luck in this endeavor!

Message edited by author 2007-07-06 16:44:13.
 07/06/2007 04:47:26 PM · #11
Originally posted by Brad:
I agree on being nice. Be humble.
Represent yourself in a professional manner and wouldn't hurt to let them know your affiliations with the online digital photography community, and one of the reasons you upgraded to the D200, was based on Manny's tremendous success with his Nikon, and how they have treated him.

You are an ambassador for them and have a lot of potential to spread good words or bad to the community. Just make sure it doesn't come off as a threat to bad moth them if things aren't going well in the negotiations. If you find yourself with your back against the NO wall, test the waters and offer a compromise. You'll cover the labor if they'll cover the parts. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

Going to be a tough one to prove though. That's the bad part.
Wish you luck in this endeavor!


OK I will try the nice guy approach... but something just occured to me... it can only be the glass that is scratched so why they charging me for a sensor replacement?.. seems like a 'scam' to me really.

They could simply replace the glass cover, surely THAT is the thing that has the scratch here...
 07/06/2007 04:52:20 PM · #12
I think the key here is to follow some advice that's already been given - and you can do that in a "nice" way. Contact Nikon and ask for a supervisor (and that person's supervisor if necessary). If you get no satisfaction there, then I would approach the Nikon rep that "works" your area stores. Those salespeople have an enormous amount of clout when it comes to "fixing" little problems (which is what this would be to Nikon).

I'm a Canon man myself, but I'm sure that this runs across the board - regardless of brand - so that's the route I would follow. Good luck and I hope it works out okay.

PS: I always catch more bees with honey...

Message edited by author 2007-07-06 16:52:43.
 07/06/2007 04:52:41 PM · #13
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Nikolai1024:
Before you demand, ask nicely. Then ask for managers, demand, involve lawers.


You must be kidding right??? Involve lawyers... good lord, the amount of money being discussed here would be eaten by lawyers before you could say "Boo".

Personally I support your contention that one needs to call to the people in charge and involve persons of authority. If that fails, I remain convinced you can find other viable alternatives... but lawyers??? more money down the drain.

Ray


I don't actually mean start full blown case. Spending more on lawers that the cost of the camera is dumb. At the same time you make want to use word lawer in your conversation or have a "lawer" present in a conference call. Whatever you have to do get message across that you are serious.
 07/06/2007 04:57:21 PM · #14
.

Message edited by author 2007-07-06 16:58:21.
 07/06/2007 04:57:39 PM · #15
Originally posted by Nikolai1024:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Nikolai1024:
Before you demand, ask nicely. Then ask for managers, demand, involve lawers.


You must be kidding right??? Involve lawyers... good lord, the amount of money being discussed here would be eaten by lawyers before you could say "Boo".

Personally I support your contention that one needs to call to the people in charge and involve persons of authority. If that fails, I remain convinced you can find other viable alternatives... but lawyers??? more money down the drain.

Ray


I don't actually mean start full blown case. Spending more on lawers that the cost of the camera is dumb. At the same time you make want to use word lawer in your conversation or have a "lawer" present in a conference call. Whatever you have to do get message across that you are serious.


Unfortunately, given what Lawyers charge, getting one to write a letter might well cost nearly as much as the repair.

Message edited by author 2007-07-06 16:59:38.
 07/06/2007 04:57:40 PM · #16
MAK, I am no expert on these issues, but when you sent the D200 in the first time, and then the second time, did Nikon note any damage to sensor? Was it shown on the repair sheet? How long was it from second repair to you noticing fault with sensor?

I would assume that you noticed it fairly quickly. Again I assume they are suggesting you have done the damage. But, why when the camera has just been repaired and serviced would you need to clean, and possibly damage, the sensor.

My approach would be via the camera shop, explaining that the camera was sent for repair twice before fault was fixed. Before being sent for repair, you taken XXX number of shots. After 2 months of delay waiting for repairs, when you got the camera back it had taken YYY number of shots before you noticed damage. Would a sensor clean be required between XXX and YYY?? See what they say.
 07/06/2007 05:00:46 PM · #17
How about writing to:

Mr. Jeremy Gilbert
Group Marketing Manager
Nikon UK Limited
380 Richmond Road
Kingston upon Thames
Surrey KT2 5PR

Explain the issue in gentle considerate terms and ask for his advice (read intervention). Explain you are a long-time Nikon user and give a link to your website.

Message edited by author 2007-07-06 17:01:18.
 07/06/2007 06:33:31 PM · #18
I think your main problem in terms of burden of proof will be the timeframe we're talking about here. If I read your first post correctly you got the camera back (after it's second stint with Nikon) back in April and have only recently noticed the problem and gone back in to the store where the scratch was discovered.

They will likely question whether it's reasonable/ likely for it to have taken 2+ months for you to notice and report the problem.

Whilst I know you personally and I know that if you say you haven't been inside/ touched the sensor then you haven't, I can see it from there point of view too - I think most DSLR users these days do self-clean their sensors and their assumption will probably be that you damaged it yourself and are now trying to 'scam' them into paying for the fix.

Like I said, I believe you because you're my friend and I trust your word. But if I didn't know you from Adam, in all honesty, I'd be (silently) wondering...

Anyway, hopefully the nicely nicely approach going higher up the chain will work for you but if it doesn't... realistically, given the length of time since the last time the camera was in Nikon's hands, I'd say you're fighting a losing battle.
 07/06/2007 06:44:13 PM · #19
One word about lawyers and large companies, the minute you say lawyer most employees are trained to end the conversation, using the term lawyer to them means law suit and at that point they do not want anyone talking and making thier case worse. Best early route is either record what is being said or make sure you have good notes outlining who you talk to and what was said during the conversation.

I agree with everyone start the nice route, document you image before and after and see where it takes you. Good luck!
 07/06/2007 06:45:24 PM · #20
Originally posted by PapaBob:
One word about lawyers and large companies, the minute you say lawyer most employees are trained to end the conversation, using the term lawyer to them means law suit and at that point they do not want anyone talking and making thier case worse. Best early route is either record what is being said or make sure you have good notes outlining who you talk to and what was said during the conversation.

I agree with everyone start the nice route, document your image numbers and dates before and after the service and note any issues and when they began and see where it takes you. Good luck!


That was supposed to be an edit but I missed the correct button...lol

Message edited by author 2007-07-06 18:46:10.
 07/16/2007 09:23:06 PM · #21
I don't know if you have something to the eqivalent of the Better Business Bureua in the UK. In the USA a company does not want to be reported to the BBB. Too many reports, and the public can track that the company has poor customer service. I was once getting yanked around by Sandisk. For 2 weeks this went on, and nothing. I finally faxed them a letter telling them of my delimna and telling them that if I did not get a response in 24 hours I would contact the BBB. Within 1 hour I had a phonecall, and in 3 days I had a check. See if the UK has something like that.

--doug
 07/24/2007 05:20:53 PM · #22
MAK - did you have any luck?

Can you demonstrate that the damage occurred after the cleaning using your photo record?

If you did need to resort to the small claims court, I can point you in the right direction.
 07/24/2007 05:29:20 PM · #23
I bet you have enough pictures to look back at how far back they have the characteristic splotch. A scratch isn't going to change what it does (although I don't know how aperture affects a scratch over the hot glass). If you can show them pictures with the EXIF showing the defect after the servicing and not before I'd think you could make a case to someone reasonable there.
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