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06/20/2007 07:18:33 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by Lozza:
I'm not in the DPL, but my wife is. She has noticed a drop in average for her images since the start of the season and boils it down to voters grasping at straws to justify dnmc. It might not be a big deal to some, but to her it's significant when images that would have averaged between 5.7 to 6 are now averaging 5.3 to 5.5, and she's trying really hard to lift her overall average to 6, so it DOES mean a lot.
Cream will always rise to the top. It's just those who fall below that, that are feeling the brunt. |
I have a problem with people that start blaming outside sources for scores they think "would" be something outside of certain circumstances. Especially when claims are being tossed around without any backup evidence to support it... I would love to be able to put my poor scoring on DPL alone, I really would, but I have no evidence for it. I know that I'm not submitting great work, and it's far too easy to fall into the trap of being subjectively attached to our own work.
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06/20/2007 07:20:34 PM · #177 |
Have our scores suffered because we feel we should enter challeges that we would otherwise pass-up? I for one have entered photo's in a blind panic for the sake of the team, to make up the numbers - photo's that are frankly cr@p!
Message edited by author 2007-06-20 19:20:48. |
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06/20/2007 07:25:54 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Especially when claims are being tossed around without any backup evidence to support it... |
One only has to read scores thread to know that some voters will dnmc for the most inane of reasons and that it is becoming more and more prevalent. |
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06/20/2007 07:29:32 PM · #179 |
I haven't read all nine pages of this thread so forgive me if this has been said before.
But if there has been a drop in scores (and I don't know that the season has been going long enough to conclusively prove that), I think it's probably attributable, in large part, to the increased numbers of entries.
This has the potential to impact on scoring in a number of ways. People are entering challenges with images they probably wouldn't have dreamed submitting if not for DPL. I should think this effect more than counter-balances the 'it's DPL so I'm going to try harder effect"
But probably more importantly is the fact that with so many additional entries, it becomes harder to stand out from the crowd as it were. There is a greater likelihood of multiple people having similar ideas - and we all know that there is a tendency to vote lower on an image if you've already seen three or four highly similar shots in the challenge. Furthermore, there is the possibility of simple voter fatigue. If I've sifted through 200 images already it's going to take more to catch my eye with image 201 then it did with image 11. This is by no means a conscious decision, but rather just the way people work - novel = attractive. |
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06/20/2007 07:31:47 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by Lozza:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Especially when claims are being tossed around without any backup evidence to support it... |
One only has to read scores thread to know that some voters will dnmc for the most inane of reasons and that it is becoming more and more prevalent. |
Hmm.. not in my experience. DNMC has always been a fall-back for anyone that doesn't like a photo but can't really explain why. It's always been an issue, and always will be. You only have to go back through the 5 years of this site and the 300,000 threads on the subject to realize that the only thing that might make it seem to be more prevalent is the growing number of people on the site, the unusual amount of entries due to the DPL (this is an issue that is certainly unavoidable), and the fact that voting such a number of entries is going to involve a certain level of fatigue.
I don't think anyone is arguing that DPL has changed things. It has. It is in beta, it needs tweaking, and changes are most certainly coming. However, blaming lower scores on anything but the fact that the photographer hasn't adjusted their work to the change is a fool's game. People still win, people still get great scores, and people still fall into the middle of the pack (and below). The key is to realize what you need to change to score better... as has always been the case here.
It just happens that this is a larger change than usual. |
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06/20/2007 07:33:32 PM · #181 |
| [aside: Artyste - you mean to tell me you've given up your pentax pride for the sake of a camera phone! Sheesh - I know some people don't think much of the brand - but that's just going too far....though judging by the scores that have been acheived with that cam, I might just trade in the DSLR myself] |
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06/20/2007 07:41:30 PM · #182 |
Originally posted by samtrundle:
[aside: Artyste - you mean to tell me you've given up your pentax pride for the sake of a camera phone! Sheesh - I know some people don't think much of the brand - but that's just going too far....though judging by the scores that have been acheived with that cam, I might just trade in the DSLR myself] |
lol.. I still have the Pentax, and shoot with it, but DPC is such these days that I think I'll just enter camera phone photos from now on and keep my true treasures for myself. lol. |
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06/20/2007 07:42:47 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
You only have to go back through the 5 years of this site and the 300,000 threads on the subject to realize that the only thing that might make it seem to be more prevalent is the growing number of people on the site, the unusual amount of entries due to the DPL (this is an issue that is certainly unavoidable), and the fact that voting such a number of entries is going to involve a certain level of fatigue. |
[nods] Agreed. |
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06/20/2007 07:58:54 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Lozza:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Especially when claims are being tossed around without any backup evidence to support it... |
One only has to read scores thread to know that some voters will dnmc for the most inane of reasons and that it is becoming more and more prevalent. |
Hmm.. not in my experience. DNMC has always been a fall-back for anyone that doesn't like a photo but can't really explain why. It's always been an issue, and always will be. You only have to go back through the 5 years of this site and the 300,000 threads on the subject to realize that the only thing that might make it seem to be more prevalent is the growing number of people on the site, the unusual amount of entries due to the DPL (this is an issue that is certainly unavoidable), and the fact that voting such a number of entries is going to involve a certain level of fatigue.
It just happens that this is a larger change than usual. |
Here is the one of the earliest threads on DPC, 2/15/2002. The OP stated that for the Table Shot challenge anything not appearing to be shot from a table should automatically get a 1. Another funny thing in it is that one of the backers of this plan and an an early leader of the DNMC troll vote has the user name  shortredneck. LoL!!!
The source of DNMC on DPC |
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06/20/2007 08:43:48 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Oh, and for those worried about the team spirit getting in the way I just want you to know that I think my teammates on ETH are assholes. |
...birds of a feather my dear...birds of a feather... |
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06/20/2007 09:07:06 PM · #186 |
| Well, just my experience, but it does not seem that the DPL has lowered my averages. Of the 8 challenges I have entered for the DPL, only 1 has been below my average, and two of the eight are on my profile page in the five highest rated. Go figure. :) |
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06/20/2007 09:14:54 PM · #187 |
Our team, has so far added 12 photos to our colective top 5, all bar 2 of our 7 has increased our seed to season average and 2 of us have taken our highest ever rated shots.
Yes its damn hard to shoot everyweek but its helped us all by being able to get some other opinions prior to submitting Go the DPL :) |
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06/20/2007 09:36:37 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by samtrundle:
I haven't read all nine pages of this thread so forgive me if this has been said before.
But if there has been a drop in scores (and I don't know that the season has been going long enough to conclusively prove that), I think it's probably attributable, in large part, to the increased numbers of entries.
This has the potential to impact on scoring in a number of ways. People are entering challenges with images they probably wouldn't have dreamed submitting if not for DPL. I should think this effect more than counter-balances the 'it's DPL so I'm going to try harder effect"
But probably more importantly is the fact that with so many additional entries, it becomes harder to stand out from the crowd as it were. There is a greater likelihood of multiple people having similar ideas - and we all know that there is a tendency to vote lower on an image if you've already seen three or four highly similar shots in the challenge. Furthermore, there is the possibility of simple voter fatigue. If I've sifted through 200 images already it's going to take more to catch my eye with image 201 then it did with image 11. This is by no means a conscious decision, but rather just the way people work - novel = attractive. |
Very well put, I agree wholeheartedly. I feel strongly the voter fatigue and the pressure to enter something...anything has caused the lower votes or seemingly lower votes, I know I for one have entered a few during DPL that I wouldn't have entered on bet before, lol, but that was my choice not the voters...
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06/20/2007 10:30:05 PM · #189 |
What about the statement "give DPL its own challenges" screams conspiracy? You guys really need to not take me so seriously. I made an observation based on real data and made a suggestion as to how to solve it. Sorry I didn't provide graphics... maybe next time...
Either way, the suggestion has reached the appropriate ears (langdon and SC) and my argument here is done. I'd like to see a poll, but in the end the future is up to D&L. I have faith that they (like always) will do what serves the site the best.
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06/20/2007 10:36:28 PM · #190 |
| Thanks for starting it up Leroy. There's been some good discussion and yeah, it has reached Langdon and SC and they said there will be discussions after DPL is over. So now we have time to think up options on how we can improve on things. |
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06/20/2007 10:49:23 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Take it for what it is but Scott is the man and he has been doing this longer than anyone. |
I'm no graph reader but how does this equate to an almost .2 drop? The average for the first 12 challenges is just under 5.6 while the average for the next nine looks closer to 5.5 than 5.4 to me. Therefore there has been roughly a .1 drop in average scores since the inception of the DPL.
Holy shit! .1 more or less? Let's burn this site to the ground! |
Well I just got a PM from  thegrandwazoo asking me to view this thread and if I could, provide some input. Yes I have been keeping stats on challenge scores comparing DPL an Non-DPL challenges. And I will give everyone my personal opinion but take it at face value because stats are fact but we must understand that stats does not tell us why the change has happened.
1. Yes these are challenge averages, not my averages.
2. Yes the graph does show that since the DPL started there has been a drop in challenge average of almost .2000 points.
3. And the trend is continuing.
but we don't know what caused the decline. All we can do is speculate. So I will, and here is my opinions.
Since the DPL started we̢۪re averaging over 1000 entries per week just between the members and two exclusive challenges. I believe this is the foremost reason for the drop in the challenge average score. I feel it is a domino effect, each photographer feels the need to enter every challenge to support his or her team and sometimes that may result in a less than average photograph entered. At the same time the voters are overwhelmed with amount of photographs they have to vote on. Voters that normally voted 100% are voting less and some voters that normally vote a fraction of the challenge are finding it hard to find time to vote the required 20%. I believe that voters are so overwhelmed that they are looking through entries and voting on the best of the best and skipping entries that do not catch their eye resulting in lower votes received per entry. There̢۪s only so much time within a week to vote causing voters to take less time viewing each entry and sometimes they may vote a point lower than they would have if they had more time to view the entry.
Do I feel voters are purposely voting lower, NO! Do I think the majority of the images are of less quality, NO! I think there are bugs in the system, as langdon said, that we would have to work out. It may take a few seasons but I feel the DPL and DPC can coincide with each other. To what extent, I’m not sure at this time. For the people that have found their entries scoring lower than you thought it would, I feel your pain –been there, done that. Just as this site started with only 9 entries with high scores the more users that entered the lower the score became. And I think that’s what is happening now. The increase in entries has voters reevaluating their vote practice. And unfortunately some (well a lot) of good entries suffer.
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06/20/2007 10:54:25 PM · #192 |
This thread is getting quite long and its probably time to break out the popcorn. However, it seems that there is another issue here that might need to be looked at. I participated in one of the WPL's shortly before it became DPL and the team scores were based on our point score. Also as DPC participants in general, I think we start to think of our point scores as grades.... 3 or less is failing, 4 is a D, 5 a C, 6 a B, and 7 or more an A. But we all know that the curve is slightly different with every challenge. So, say a whole team chose to enter a certain challenge in which voters just don't care for the topic, style or whatever; they will be hurt, even when their photo did well for that particular challenge. So, even if a person won the blue, that score might still be lower than say the yellow of the other challenge. How do we fairly compare our scores from one challenge to the next given all the variables that have already been mentioned in the thread? Perhaps we should use the percentages? Or use some formula that stretches the curve of every challenge to a standardized score? This would eliminated the potential for effects of "low voting" as well as allow all of us to better track the progress of our "grade" over time. This too has its shortcomings, because maybe John's blue is only as good as Janes yellow afterall? Anyway... its just another rock to toss into the fire.
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06/20/2007 10:58:39 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Take it for what it is but Scott is the man and he has been doing this longer than anyone. |
Okay thank god someone else did this so I didn't have too. I was going to do something pretty dang close to this tonight but WOOOHOOOO Thanks |
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06/20/2007 11:02:11 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Take it for what it is but Scott is the man and he has been doing this longer than anyone. |
Okay thank god someone else did this so I didn't have too. I was going to do something pretty dang close to this tonight but WOOOHOOOO Thanks |
Copied from above:
I'm no graph reader but how does this equate to an almost .2 drop? The average for the first 12 challenges is just under 5.6 while the average for the next nine looks closer to 5.5 than 5.4 to me. Therefore there has been roughly a .1 drop in average scores since the inception of the DPL.
Holy shit! .1 more or less? Let's burn this site to the ground! |
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06/20/2007 11:13:55 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by Lowcivicman99:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Take it for what it is but Scott is the man and he has been doing this longer than anyone. |
Okay thank god someone else did this so I didn't have too. I was going to do something pretty dang close to this tonight but WOOOHOOOO Thanks |
Copied from above:
I'm no graph reader but how does this equate to an almost .2 drop? The average for the first 12 challenges is just under 5.6 while the average for the next nine looks closer to 5.5 than 5.4 to me. Therefore there has been roughly a .1 drop in average scores since the inception of the DPL.
Holy shit! .1 more or less? Let's burn this site to the ground! |
hahahah well I didn't really say burn it down... After all the DPL challenges are over after this week (except for the playoffs) but .2000*number of DPL challeges/(average of DPL entries*number of regular entries)= people voting lower without thinking about it because they want to see something that really blows their socks off.
Which BTW adds up to a large about of votes like 40k+ votes |
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06/20/2007 11:14:48 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Holy shit! .1 more or less? Let's burn this site to the ground! |
Let's! You seem pretty adamant about it. Let's do it!
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06/20/2007 11:19:28 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Holy shit! .1 more or less? Let's burn this site to the ground! |
Let's! You seem pretty adamant about it. Let's do it! |
Well, *I* don't think we should, I was just speaking for other people. |
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06/20/2007 11:21:23 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Well, *I* don't think we should, I was just speaking for other people. |
Ahh... but wouldn't it be more fun if you and I did it? ;-)
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06/20/2007 11:23:11 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Well, *I* don't think we should, I was just speaking for other people. |
Ahh... but wouldn't it be more fun if you and I did it? ;-) |
If you shave and put on a wig it might work out. |
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06/20/2007 11:27:02 PM · #200 |
Hey if someone wants to burn something down...
I think Jamie Gold says it best but
"I'm ALL in" |
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