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06/20/2007 01:00:54 PM · #101 |
I actually do not believe that the DPL has effected my scores in a negative way, In fact since the DPL started I have replaced all but one image in my top 5 on my profile page.
But I still think the DPL would be better off if it had it's own seperate challenge.
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06/20/2007 01:15:31 PM · #102 |
In thinking this through more, I really don't feel that the DPL has hurt DPC overall, in fact it's got me out of a creative slump of sorts and looking around more for something to shoot.
With that said, I do feel that there are some, not ALL, that do think they can go out and cast low votes in hopes to get a leg up on the competition, but I'd be up in the night to say that it's a site wide problem. Unfortunately as it's been said time and time again, there will always be someone trying to get around the system.
I would entertain the idea of having separate challenges for DPL and regular challenges, it would be nice to not have 400+ entries per challenge.
Another thought: Perhaps it's not a majority of voters casting low votes but simply less people voting in general? I know that my voting has slacked way off now that the DPL is going and that the number of entries in challenges have gone way up.
Food for thought...
Message edited by author 2007-06-20 13:16:47.
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06/20/2007 01:36:52 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by mpeters:
Personal observation>>> When I look at MY low scoring entries in a detached, "objective" manner their deficiencies are glaring. It's the resulting conclusion that is hard to accept. |
This is the most profound statement of the day. This is not directed towards you but directed at anyone and everyone. The toughest thing to do as a photographer is to detach yourself from your own work and honestly critique it. In other words, its hard to admit your work sucks sometimes, and when you are told that it does you start finding reasons to blame why people are out to get you/lower your score.
MattO
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06/20/2007 01:48:18 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Originally posted by mpeters:
Personal observation>>> When I look at MY low scoring entries in a detached, "objective" manner their deficiencies are glaring. It's the resulting conclusion that is hard to accept. |
This is the most profound statement of the day. This is not directed towards you but directed at anyone and everyone. The toughest thing to do as a photographer is to detach yourself from your own work and honestly critique it. In other words, its hard to admit your work sucks sometimes, and when you are told that it does you start finding reasons to blame why people are out to get you/lower your score.
MattO |
And if your me it just sucks all of the time. :D
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06/20/2007 02:00:14 PM · #105 |
yeah, I don't think DPL is hurting DPC. The more DPC grows, the more variety of styles, the better chances of learning to take place, and new personalities that show up, and thats always good. So i don't think anyone really wants to split up the site to seperate the 2, but discussion on ways to maintain the vision of what it was designed to be.
1 - We know the site is growing and will continue to grow.
2 - We can look at the stats and see that # of entries is higher during DPL season
3 - We can see that # of votes is higher during DPL season, but not at the same rate as # of entries during that time
Does it mean that the DPL is causing a problem with how people are viewing their scores? Not directly, but I think its a side effect of the sites popularity overall. The sheer number of entries per challenge makes it a chore to vote on every submission.
So I think we can rule out conspiracy and cheating, even though it will happen from time to time, what we need to focus the discussion on, is possible ways to make the voting process easier in general. Adding more challenges could spread out the submissions, and make it a less daunting task to see 300+ submissions to go thru, but in the end you're still voting on the same amount. Be interesting to see what others think or come up with. |
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06/20/2007 02:03:47 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by wsl:
So I think we can rule out conspiracy and cheating.. |
What? You must be new here. ;) |
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06/20/2007 02:07:02 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by wsl:
So I think we can rule out conspiracy and cheating.. |
What? You must be new here. ;) |
LMAO, im new here too, how long can i use that excuse 5 years? |
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06/20/2007 02:09:17 PM · #108 |
Voting in the Candid Challenge made my average vote go up. I had an entry in the challenge.
Voting in the Negative Space Challenge made my average vote go down. I didn't have an entry in the challenge.
What I have noticed, since DPL started is:
1. Since I enter more challenges I feel I should vote more challenges. Its only fair.
2. More people are entering with images that are either less than suited to the challenge topic or less than usual quality. This would bring the average challenge score down while allowing the top score to remain the same.
3. People posting in the scores thread at first roll over are the same people voting at first roll over. Is there a correlation to the low scores? No clue, but I often think about it. |
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06/20/2007 02:14:32 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Do you really think it brings down scores Leroy? |
Yes and I'm not the only one that believes it. Even minor vote "adjustments" by that many participants can cause scores to drop. |
I've asked  langdon to run some statistics to help us see whether these "adjustments" exist. As has been discussed previously, this is a "beta" or test season for DPL. These are exactly the types of things we need to look for as part of our testing.
I hope (and expect) that the numbers will show no cause for concern. If they do, however, we'll make whatever changes are necessary to ensure help keep DPL a constructive part of DPC -- and to ensure that the challenge are fun for DPL and non-DPL participants.
~Terry
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06/20/2007 02:16:39 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Originally posted by mpeters:
Personal observation>>> When I look at MY low scoring entries in a detached, "objective" manner their deficiencies are glaring. It's the resulting conclusion that is hard to accept. |
This is the most profound statement of the day. This is not directed towards you but directed at anyone and everyone. The toughest thing to do as a photographer is to detach yourself from your own work and honestly critique it. In other words, its hard to admit your work sucks sometimes, and when you are told that it does you start finding reasons to blame why people are out to get you/lower your score.
MattO |
I should add that if you are one of those here at DPC who march to the beat of a different drum and submit images outside the "typical" DPC image, don't change a thing. e301 e301 and zueszen[user]zueszen[/user] come to mind, (and posthumous posthumous). ;)
At the end of the day, I try to detach my feelings and look at my photos without regard to personal affection for the subject, difficulty in making the picture, family/friend bias, whatever. Sometimes it hurts. Classic examples....
 Isn't my son cute, the motion blur is intentional, look at the angle! Score? not so hot. But the commentators helped me be more critical.
 how creative!, water all over the kitchen, several hours of fiddling with the reading lamp, blah, blah, blah, Score? Average. It sucked b/c I had a lot of energy invested in the shot. Again, it was a learning experience.
I could go on, but the silence is deafening and I'm in the process of hijacking the thread. :) |
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06/20/2007 02:17:30 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by wsl:
So I think we can rule out conspiracy and cheating.. |
What? You must be new here. ;) |
;) New yes, but not to the concept. Conspiracy and cheating will always be a topic as long as the system allows it to be. The fact that team members can vote on their own entries challenge does leave it as a possibility, even if its not happening. Would eliminating it make the conspiracy talk stop? Doubt it, but it'd be less substantiated.
What I'm seeing from the simple stats is that # of votes isn't keeping up with the scale of the # of entries. Whats going to happen when we've got 1000 entries per challenge? The site is going to keep growing and no matter how tight knit of a group the core is, in an online community you will attract and gain members that only care about themselves and will do anything to make themselves look better. The SC does a great job, but you're only so many.
I'm just hopefully adding to the discussions. |
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06/20/2007 02:19:02 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by wsl:
The fact that team members can vote on their own entries challenge does leave it as a possibility, even if its not happening. Would eliminating it make the conspiracy talk stop? Doubt it, but it'd be less substantiated. |
We can't. |
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06/20/2007 02:19:56 PM · #113 |
Requirements
You may:
substitute only one team member in a given season for another user.
add new users to your team at any time during the season, if your team began the season with less than the maximum number of players allowed.
discuss challenge entries with team members, via email, PM, or in your team̢۪s forum thread, as long as all post-processing is done by yourself.
You may not:
participate on more than 1 team in a given season.
vote on your team members̢۪ entries while a DPL season is in progress. |
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06/20/2007 02:21:40 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by wsl:
The fact that team members can vote on their own entries challenge does leave it as a possibility, even if its not happening. Would eliminating it make the conspiracy talk stop? Doubt it, but it'd be less substantiated. |
We can't. |
Own entry's challenge...not own entries. You can vote in the same challenge you entered. |
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06/20/2007 02:22:08 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by wsl:
The fact that team members can vote on their own entries challenge does leave it as a possibility, even if its not happening. Would eliminating it make the conspiracy talk stop? Doubt it, but it'd be less substantiated. |
We can't. |
Own entry's challenge...not own entries. You can vote in the same challenge you entered. |
OH! my bad! |
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06/20/2007 02:22:25 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by wsl:
The fact that team members can vote on their own entries challenge does leave it as a possibility, even if its not happening. Would eliminating it make the conspiracy talk stop? Doubt it, but it'd be less substantiated. |
We can't. |
So if you enter into say challenge X, and so do your teammates. You're not allowed (meaning the system doesn't give you the option too) or not permitted (meaning against the rules) to vote on your teammates submissions if you've seen them prior or not? Just trying to clarify which and should have said clearer what I meant. |
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06/20/2007 02:23:00 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by wsl:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by wsl:
The fact that team members can vote on their own entries challenge does leave it as a possibility, even if its not happening. Would eliminating it make the conspiracy talk stop? Doubt it, but it'd be less substantiated. |
We can't. |
So if you enter into say challenge X, and so do your teammates. You're not allowed (meaning the system doesn't give you the option too) or not permitted (meaning against the rules) to vote on your teammates submissions if you've seen them prior or not? Just trying to clarify which and should have said clearer what I meant. |
You can't vote on your teammates' entries, no. They appear at the bottom, the same way your own entry appears.
Message edited by author 2007-06-20 14:23:18. |
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06/20/2007 02:23:54 PM · #118 |
after 5 pages of discussion I think that the better thing is wait the langdon statistics for a better point of view of the situation. If we want discuss of the rules is better start another thread or most threads, one for every aspect of the rules. At this time is nearly impossible follow the discuss.
Message edited by author 2007-06-20 14:25:21. |
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06/20/2007 02:29:14 PM · #119 |
For me, I think scores are lower. My style hasn't changed, and pictures that I feel should be a high 5 or low 6 are ending up low 5's. There are close to 500 voters that know what entries belong to their teammates. That means they don't have to worry about slapping a low score on them. Everything else is fair game. It's just possible that the voters are being more critical. It's the internet, so who knows.
Sure the masters of the sight will always do well, but us average folk are seeing lower scores compared to pre-DPL. For example, I fully expected my Backsides and Puzzle Macro to score in the high 5's. Both started in the 4's and are barely holding on to a 5. But once again, what do you expect, it's the internet.
Message edited by author 2007-06-20 14:30:52. |
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06/20/2007 02:32:42 PM · #120 |
...even for the photo there is the rule :" every beetle is good for his mother" ;)
Message edited by author 2007-06-20 14:34:45. |
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06/20/2007 02:42:48 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by Marc923:
For me, I think scores are lower. My style hasn't changed, and pictures that I feel should be a high 5 or low 6 are ending up low 5's. There are close to 500 voters that know what entries belong to their teammates. That means they don't have to worry about slapping a low score on them. Everything else is fair game. It's just possible that the voters are being more critical. It's the internet, so who knows.
Sure the masters of the sight will always do well, but us average folk are seeing lower scores compared to pre-DPL. For example, I fully expected my Backsides and Puzzle Macro to score in the high 5's. Both started in the 4's and are barely holding on to a 5. But once again, what do you expect, it's the internet. |
Don't you think the temptation for the avg voter/DPL participant would be to vote lower on the "non-average" shots? I'm only speculating...
Personally, as entertaining as find some of the threads related to voting/friend voting/cheating, I think it would benefit the site if we placed more trust in the Admin and SC and their ability to maintain a level playing field. Trust can occasionaly slap you in the head, but it is often rewarded in great ways. |
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06/20/2007 03:01:26 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by mpeters:
Originally posted by Marc923:
For me, I think scores are lower. My style hasn't changed, and pictures that I feel should be a high 5 or low 6 are ending up low 5's. There are close to 500 voters that know what entries belong to their teammates. That means they don't have to worry about slapping a low score on them. Everything else is fair game. It's just possible that the voters are being more critical. It's the internet, so who knows.
Sure the masters of the sight will always do well, but us average folk are seeing lower scores compared to pre-DPL. For example, I fully expected my Backsides and Puzzle Macro to score in the high 5's. Both started in the 4's and are barely holding on to a 5. But once again, what do you expect, it's the internet. |
Don't you think the temptation for the avg voter/DPL participant would be to vote lower on the "non-average" shots? I'm only speculating...
Personally, as entertaining as find some of the threads related to voting/friend voting/cheating, I think it would benefit the site if we placed more trust in the Admin and SC and their ability to maintain a level playing field. Trust can occasionaly slap you in the head, but it is often rewarded in great ways. |
I'd say it still is a level playing field. Where voters would normally give say a 5 or 6, now get a 4 or a 5. I'm not saying people are cheating. It's quite possible they are being more critical and not so free with the higher scores.
Message edited by author 2007-06-20 15:02:02. |
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06/20/2007 03:10:01 PM · #123 |
Just a short mention for anyone that compares the scores on photos they've submitted in the past to the ones they got, or are getting, on photos with a similar look/feel/style/quality/etc. now.
You simply *cannot* expect the same type of scoring on them. You just can't. There are too many factors that exist. Just to name a few:
1. Type of Challenge
2. Different voter base
3. Different mentality of existing voter base
4. Style/trend change since original entry
5. Mood swings.
Etc, etc, etc. So if you state that you are getting lower scores due to the fact that older entries scored better than current ones.. nuh uh. Doesn't wash. It's just not a valid complaint. |
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06/20/2007 03:24:30 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Marc923:
Originally posted by mpeters:
Originally posted by Marc923:
For me, I think scores are lower. My style hasn't changed, and pictures that I feel should be a high 5 or low 6 are ending up low 5's. There are close to 500 voters that know what entries belong to their teammates. That means they don't have to worry about slapping a low score on them. Everything else is fair game. It's just possible that the voters are being more critical. It's the internet, so who knows.
Sure the masters of the sight will always do well, but us average folk are seeing lower scores compared to pre-DPL. For example, I fully expected my Backsides and Puzzle Macro to score in the high 5's. Both started in the 4's and are barely holding on to a 5. But once again, what do you expect, it's the internet. |
Don't you think the temptation for the avg voter/DPL participant would be to vote lower on the "non-average" shots? I'm only speculating...
Personally, as entertaining as find some of the threads related to voting/friend voting/cheating, I think it would benefit the site if we placed more trust in the Admin and SC and their ability to maintain a level playing field. Trust can occasionaly slap you in the head, but it is often rewarded in great ways. |
I'd say it still is a level playing field. Where voters would normally give say a 5 or 6, now get a 4 or a 5. I'm not saying people are cheating. It's quite possible they are being more critical and not so free with the higher scores. |
I intended the use of 'you' in my post in a general sense, not specifically directed at you. I'm of the opinion that scoring during DPL is consistent with past history. Maybe some forthcoming stats will confirm or contridict.
Artyste makes a good point about all of the variables that can affect a vote. |
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06/20/2007 04:43:19 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by Skip:
don't like it? really: focus on free-studies.
or better yet, get involved ;-) |
That's rather humorous Skip. FS is the hardest challenge to win on this site. But..... with only about 134 so far for June, maybe we'll have a small one this time. Naw, everybody'll submit in the last 24 hours. ;)
I would like to see at least one FS a year that you entered and only qualified to win if you voted on all entries and commented on at least 10 percent of the entries. Now that would be interesting.
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