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01/17/2007 04:19:43 PM · #1 |
Question: Does it make a difference in which order adjustment layers are used? It seems to me it does, but I haven't been able to tell for sure.
If yes, what is the preferred order, and why?
Related question: Is it OK to flatten the image in between adjustments, or is it a better idea to keep all layers and flatten only at the end? |
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01/17/2007 04:25:03 PM · #2 |
The effects are certainly additive by default, so yes, the order will change how they interact.
They are applied 'top down' unless you group them and localise the effects, which you can do by changing the layer style for a group.
Layer styles have a big impact on how adjustment layers are applied too, there are 20something different styles to choose from.
Preferred order: I tend to do white balance, black and white point first (with either levels or curve layers) then hue/saturation. Once I've got the basic colours sorted out, I'll merge all that onto a new active layer (Alt+Ctrl+Shift+E on a PC with the top layer active) and go on from there.
Local fixes, dodge and burn layers, colour effects etc I tend to do later on and in 'higher' layers. But it depends a lot on what I'm trying to achieve. Probably not that helpful! I process every image differently and in a different order depending on what I'm trying to do.
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 16:26:37.
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01/17/2007 04:26:57 PM · #3 |
I always keep two files...one in jpeg/tiff (depending on the image) and one in PSD, with all the layers intact...that way I can come back at a later date and readjust as necessary.
I know that I have often looked at old images and tried to remember how I achieved it...so I just open up the PSD file and voila...all the information is there.
As for the order...I have no order. I find that sometimes by rearranging the adjustment layers, the final image has a different result...sometimes a result that I would never have expected.
So in summary sweet, play with the layers lots and always save the file as a PSD.
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01/17/2007 04:27:08 PM · #4 |
Pretty easy actually:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.
I haven't a clue as I never have more than one at a time...
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01/17/2007 04:30:43 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Pretty easy actually:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.
I haven't a clue as I never have more than one at a time... |
Brad, you need to get a life :)
Are you saying you flatten after adding each layer? Or that you don't use more than one layer ever? |
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01/17/2007 04:31:57 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by BradP:
I never have more than one at a time... |
Yeah, right. |
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01/17/2007 04:33:27 PM · #7 |
Only thing I've ever done with layers is new layer via copy, then affect changes I want, usually erasing back areas I didn't want affected, then flatten, repeating as necessary.
I'm basically PS-challenged and haven't a clue. Heck I don't even know how to use adjustment layers nor masks.
I'll figure out how to post-process right someday.
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 16:34:16.
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01/17/2007 04:35:11 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by BradP:
I'm basically PS-challenged and haven't a clue. Heck I don't even know how to use adjustment layers nor masks.
I'll figure out how to post-process right someday. |
Is it April??? WTF?
Gimme my leg back. |
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01/17/2007 04:35:41 PM · #9 |
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01/17/2007 04:38:57 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
The effects are certainly additive by default, so yes, the order will change how they interact.
They are applied 'top down' unless you group them and localise the effects, which you can do by changing the layer style for a group.
Layer styles have a big impact on how adjustment layers are applied too, there are 20something different styles to choose from.
Preferred order: I tend to do white balance, black and white point first (with either levels or curve layers) then hue/saturation. Once I've got the basic colours sorted out, I'll merge all that onto a new active layer (Alt+Ctrl+Shift+E on a PC with the top layer active) and go on from there.
Local fixes, dodge and burn layers, colour effects etc I tend to do later on and in 'higher' layers. But it depends a lot on what I'm trying to achieve. Probably not that helpful! I process every image differently and in a different order depending on what I'm trying to do. |
Allright. Are you saying that layers can be grouped, and then they act as a group? I'm trying to think why that would be an advantage. How would I group layers? Does the "link layers" have something to do with this?
And styles - they can be applied to one layer or to a group of layers? Just playing around with them, it looks like a number of them act as border makers of sorts? I need to find out what the different styles do.
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01/17/2007 04:40:02 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by BradP:
I'm dead serious. |
Oh. Well, just goes to show that miraculous editing can be accomplished without using all the tools.
That's like locking two of the drawers on your big Matco box, Brad, with $2000 worth of Snap On inside...
No offense, man, I'm just shocked.
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 16:40:40. |
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01/17/2007 04:40:22 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Only thing I've ever done with layers is new layer via copy, then affect changes I want, usually erasing back areas I didn't want affected, then flatten, repeating as necessary.
I'm basically PS-challenged and haven't a clue. Heck I don't even know how to use adjustment layers nor masks.
I'll figure out how to post-process right someday. |
That's close to what I was doing up to rather recently, but I'm trying to figure out how to use PS better.
AND Brad's pictures just prove that it is the photograph, not the post-processing that does it. YEAH!!!!
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 16:41:43. |
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01/17/2007 04:41:40 PM · #13 |
- on the layers pallete, at the bottom click the circle with black and white in it. this will open up the adjustment layers available.
i would recommend trying them out - as it eliminates the risk of F'n something up that can't be undone.
- on the layers pallette click the icon with the white circle in it. this will add a layer mask to the active layer. initially it will be all white, and be the active thumb next to the layer thumb. now click on the layer thumb and do an aggressive levels adjustment. click back to the masks thumb - choose the paint brush and switch to black as the active color. now paint on the white mask revealing the levels adjustment only where you've painted...
i dunno how i lived w/o adjustment layers and masks...
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 16:42:47.
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01/17/2007 04:43:42 PM · #14 |
Take Brad's comment with a grain of salt here. He's saying he doesn't use "adjustment layers." What he does (if I'm hearing correctly) is duplicate the background and then tweak hue/sat (for instance). When he likes it, he merges down, or flattens. Then he'll sharpen, or whatever, and merge down, etc.
Brad is a MASTER post processor, and he could benefit from learning to use adjustment layers, but let's leave well enough alone. Doesn't the guy have enough ribbons already??
;-) |
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01/17/2007 04:45:21 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Allright. Are you saying that layers can be grouped, and then they act as a group? I'm trying to think why that would be an advantage. How would I group layers? Does the "link layers" have something to do with this?
And styles - they can be applied to one layer or to a group of layers? Just playing around with them, it looks like a number of them act as border makers of sorts? I need to find out what the different styles do. |
grouping can have a huge advantage if you are trying to combine two different images (say add a background) and want different treatment for them. I did not know it was possible and started a thread a couple of months ago where you can find a lot of wisdom about it:
adjustment layers in Photoshop
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 16:46:05.
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01/17/2007 04:45:59 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by ursula:
AND Brad's pictures just prove that it is the photograph, not the post-processing that does it. YEAH!!!! |
Not quite conclusive evidence. He does a lot of PP, just not this particular kind... |
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01/17/2007 04:46:54 PM · #17 |
By the way, does anyone know how to mask adjustment layers in Paint Shop Pro????
OOPS, off topic... sorry. |
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01/17/2007 04:48:55 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by ursula:
AND Brad's pictures just prove that it is the photograph, not the post-processing that does it. YEAH!!!! |
Not quite conclusive evidence. He does a lot of PP, just not this particular kind... |
Maybe not conclusive evidence, but to me it is true :) |
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01/17/2007 04:49:23 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by LevT:
Originally posted by ursula:
Allright. Are you saying that layers can be grouped, and then they act as a group? I'm trying to think why that would be an advantage. How would I group layers? Does the "link layers" have something to do with this?
And styles - they can be applied to one layer or to a group of layers? Just playing around with them, it looks like a number of them act as border makers of sorts? I need to find out what the different styles do. |
grouping can have a huge advantage if you are trying to combine two different images (say add a background) and want different treatment for them. I did not know it was possible and started a thread a couple of months ago where you can find a lot of wisdom about it:
adjustment layers in Photoshop |
Thank you! So "clipping masks" and "layer groups" are essentially the same?
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 16:53:54. |
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01/17/2007 04:51:45 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by soup:
- on the layers pallete, at the bottom click the circle with black and white in it. this will open up the adjustment layers available.
i would recommend trying them out - as it eliminates the risk of F'n something up that can't be undone.
- on the layers pallette click the icon with the white circle in it. this will add a layer mask to the active layer. initially it will be all white, and be the active thumb next to the layer thumb. now click on the layer thumb and do an aggressive levels adjustment. click back to the masks thumb - choose the paint brush and switch to black as the active color. now paint on the white mask revealing the levels adjustment only where you've painted...
i dunno how i lived w/o adjustment layers and masks... |
Thank you. Do you think it is better to do aggressive adjustments and then "back off" (either with the masks, or with how much you blend), rather than doing cummulative smaller adjustments? My tendency is to go little bit by little bit, but I'm wondering if maybe being more aggressive and then backing off might not be a good idea. I suppose in the end the results are the same. Hmmmm. |
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01/17/2007 04:51:58 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by nards656:
By the way, does anyone know how to mask adjustment layers in Paint Shop Pro????
OOPS, off topic... sorry. |
The mask is inbuilt into the adjustment layer. Simply choose your white or black paint and paint straight onto the image.
If you place your cursor over your adjustment layer on your layer palette and thumbnail will come up showing you the mask and the alterations you have made to that layer mask.
Hope that helps.
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01/17/2007 04:55:24 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by strangeghost:
Take Brad's comment with a grain of salt here. He's saying he doesn't use "adjustment layers." What he does (if I'm hearing correctly) is duplicate the background and then tweak hue/sat (for instance). When he likes it, he merges down, or flattens. Then he'll sharpen, or whatever, and merge down, etc. |
Kinda'
For instance, I'll do Layer, New layer via copy, then make adjustments on the new layer, like add film grain, then go to the eraser tool and erase back areas I didn't want changed, then flatten, Then new layer via copy again, and say use the marquis tool to select the eyes, make changes to shadow/highlights, levels, contrast, etc, then erase back around them to restore the areas I didn't want changed, then flatten again. It's kinda' like using layer masks from what I understand of them, just my way of doing it, and think it's probably a bit more precise.
Originally posted by strangeghost:
Brad is a MASTER post processor, and he could benefit from learning to use adjustment layers, but let's leave well enough alone. Doesn't the guy have enough ribbons already??
;-) |
Someday I'll figure it out when I get time. Kinda' hard when I'm here at work 6 days a week, 100+ hours a week to get out & about and find inspiration. Ribbons? HA! That was the old DPC. Lucky to get 6's anymore, but that's me changing to use what I like more, which has proved itself that the voters & I see differently, especially by my 6.13 score in Best of 2006.
Sorry - wasn't trying hijacking this thread, but did add content regarding layers...
Message edited by author 2007-01-17 17:01:29.
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01/17/2007 05:05:58 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by BradP:
For instance, I'll do Layer, New layer via copy, then make adjustments on the new layer, like add film grain, then go to the eraser tool and erase back areas I didn't want changed, then flatten, Then new layer via copy again, and say use the marquis tool to select the eyes, make changes to shadow/highlights, levels, contrast, etc, then erase back around them to restore the areas I didn't want changed, then flatten again. It's kinda' like using layer masks from what I understand of them, just my way of doing it, and think it's probably a bit more precise. |
Why would you say it is more precise this way? Like I mentioned below, that is the way I had been working, but what bothered me most about it (besides that there were all these things in PS that I didn't know how to use) is that the end results seemed less precise when compared to other people's pictures.
I'm not putting down what you said, but I would like to know why.
Originally posted by BradP:
.... Ribbons? HA! That was the old DPC. Lucky to get 6's anymore, but that's me changing to use what I like more, which has proved itself that the voters & I see differently, especially by my 6.13 score in Best of 2006.
Sorry - wasn't trying hijacking this thread, but did add content regarding layers... |
For what little bit it's worth, to me you have lots of ribbons. |
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01/17/2007 05:14:48 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Judi:
Originally posted by nards656:
By the way, does anyone know how to mask adjustment layers in Paint Shop Pro????
OOPS, off topic... sorry. |
The mask is inbuilt into the adjustment layer. Simply choose your white or black paint and paint straight onto the image.
If you place your cursor over your adjustment layer on your layer palette and thumbnail will come up showing you the mask and the alterations you have made to that layer mask.
Hope that helps. |
That helps a LOT!!!! Wow, thanks, Judi. |
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01/17/2007 05:19:00 PM · #25 |
I tend to do adjustments in a fairly heavy handed, obvious way, then back off the opacity and paint a mask to get the effect I want. I'll also filter the mask to smooth it out (e.g., gaussian blur on the mask)
Main idea is to do anything to about 110%-150% of what it should be to see the effect clearly, then back it out with opacity to get it subtle enough to not be obvious.
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