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01/06/2007 12:11:10 PM · #51 |
| Comments are nice, however comments are not going to turn you into Super Godlike Photog any more than Donald Trump telling you to buy low and sell high is going to turn you into a billionaire. If you are really interested in improving, study it like anything else. Buy books, attend shows, read interviews with pros, study the work of photogs you admire, etc. |
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01/06/2007 12:12:38 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by samtrundle:
I'm a little bemused by the idea of a 'user is open to constructive criticism' tagline.
Call me crazy, but I was under the impression that the whole point of DPChallenge was to facillitate the provision and receipt of constructive criticism. |
Precisely -- "open to comments" is the "default state" of any submission; why else would anyone be submitting to a contest where people can comment? Isn't everyone's goal to get a comment from every voter?
Originally posted by svt_gEEk:
There's no reason for an image that ends up scoring above a 4 to even receive a 1 as a vote. |
Sure there is -- mathematics.
You seem to have no problem with the (example photo you cite) receiving a 4 as the cumulative score. Well without those low votes, it might have finished with an undeservedly high score of 6 -- would you then be objecting to how it finished? Most people agree that most pictures finish with around the "right" final score -- the threads listing "under-rated" photos is not usually that large. Without votes distributed across the entire scale, that wouldn't happen. |
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01/06/2007 12:36:59 PM · #53 |
I'll admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but I picked through it a bit and thought I'd offer a couple cents on it.
A couple people had endorsed the idea of mandatory comments on this or that. And I want to speak out against that, as I have done in similar conversations we've had in SC in the past.
I'm definitely against the idea of making it mandatory to comment on any vote of 1-3, for one thing. I understand the rationale for the pop-up that comes up, suggesting that people *should* comment on such things, but the idea of making it mandatory is just b-a-d.
For one thing, many of us will just say the heck with it and give a really bad shot a 4 for the sake of not having to bother commenting on it. For another thing, if a shot is truly terrible with obvious flaws, plenty of people will already be making those comments anyway. If someone is just starting out here and they're just trying to learn, it certainly wouldn't be too encouraging for them to get a huge string of messages all pointing out the same obvious flaw(s). This is really already the case if you look at any of the Brown Ribbon earners.
Likewise, I'd be against the idea of mandatory comments for high votes. Why? Good shots already get tons of comments anyway. And if this suggestion is merely to discourage "friend voting" (people who give unreasonably high scores to shots that don't necessarily deserve it based solely on knowing who shot it)... well, I don't believe this happens often enough for the end to justify the means.
If anything, we should be attempting to comment on the 4-5-6 voted shots (although, again, not mandatory). These are the shots that typically get very few comments because they don't evoke people's emotions strongly enough one way or another. They're really the majority of the shots overall, and they're the ones that get neglected in numbers of comments. |
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01/06/2007 12:45:52 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
If anything, we should be attempting to comment on the 4-5-6 voted shots (although, again, not mandatory). These are the shots that typically get very few comments because they don't evoke people's emotions strongly enough one way or another. They're really the majority of the shots overall, and they're the ones that get neglected in numbers of comments. |
... and would most benefit from suggested improvements to take it from a 5 to a 6 or 7. |
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01/06/2007 12:57:09 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Comments are nice, however comments are not going to turn you into Super Godlike Photog any more than Donald Trump telling you to buy low and sell high is going to turn you into a billionaire. If you are really interested in improving, study it like anything else. Buy books, attend shows, read interviews with pros, study the work of photogs you admire, etc. |
Most people find that they learn more from comments they make than those they receive.
Originally posted by samtrundle:
Surely, by submitting an image to a challenge one is implicitly accepting that the relevant photo will be subject to the judgment and criticism of others. Indeed, I don't think I'm too far off base when I say that entering a photo in a challenge at dpc really amounts to a request for the judgment and criticism of others. |
Some places offer an option for the type of feedback wanted ...
Message edited by author 2007-01-06 12:57:36. |
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01/08/2007 10:32:13 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
If anything, we should be attempting to comment on the 4-5-6 voted shots (although, again, not mandatory). These are the shots that typically get very few comments because they don't evoke people's emotions strongly enough one way or another. They're really the majority of the shots overall, and they're the ones that get neglected in numbers of comments. |
... and would most benefit from suggested improvements to take it from a 5 to a 6 or 7. |
Often I think those are the hardest comments to give though. Because the shots that typically score in the 5 range aren't really bad. There's nothing technically wrong. There usually isn't much glaringly obviously wrong to comment on. It just isn't an interesting photo - or at least - interesting enough to score well.
So to go from a 5 to a 6 or 7, you need to come up with a better concept. Or be able to see and compose visually interesting ideas. It's hard to give a short suggestion in isolation that would improve that. Least most of my 5's go to shots where I feel the picture is fine, just it isn't actually interesting. To me, IMHO, YMMV and all that, but it seems sort of typical - there isn't a way to improve the shot that's entered much - its more a case of taking a different shot or doing something conceptually different or entering it in a more appropriate challenge.
Message edited by author 2007-01-08 10:32:54.
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01/08/2007 10:50:16 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So to go from a 5 to a 6 or 7, you need to come up with a better concept. Or be able to see and compose visually interesting ideas. It's hard to give a short suggestion in isolation that would improve that. Least most of my 5's go to shots where I feel the picture is fine, just it isn't actually interesting. |
To me though, this is still a useful comment -- to know that it's not bad focus, poor lighting, or DNMC, but rather that it just doesn't "move" the viewer, still tells the photographer what they need to do next time, if not how. |
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01/08/2007 11:00:47 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To me though, this is still a useful comment -- to know that it's not bad focus, poor lighting, or DNMC, but rather that it just doesn't "move" the viewer, still tells the photographer what they need to do next time, if not how. |
I'm just thinking why it is normally harder to express and why fewer comments are left. It's easy to pick the "faults". Horizon squint, bad sharpening, noise, blur, bad focus, cluttered background, centered static subjects (I know these aren't always faults, or even problems - but they are the things people pick up on). But once you've ran the gauntlet of taking a 'DPC perfect by the numbers/rules' image and you've clearly met the challenge in some fairly literal way, then the image is fine. Good. Just not great, or exceptional, or arresting, or having much 'wow'
So it gets a 5 and most people can't find an easy problem to hit with a comment that says 'too bad about' or 'fix this and '...
The photographer has shown that they can technically take an okay picture. The craft thing is at least at an acceptable level, but then you have to come up with something interesting.
Just my thoughts on why that middle ground is such a big void of comments and hard to cross.
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01/08/2007 11:32:42 AM · #59 |
Here's a fly in the ointment...
If it's made mandatory to leave comments for any score (which I oppose BTW), then should it be made mandatory to acknowledge the comment in some way, i.e. "Helpful" (or add "Acknowledged", etc...).
After all, if I'm forced to take time to leave comments, then recipients should be forced to read/act on them as well. Yes/No?
If a persons ratio of received to helpful falls to a certain level (pick a number - 70%), then they can't enter another challenge until they catch up.
It's hard to teach (leave comments) if the students are absent (not acknowledging feedback).
...ok, now I'm off to find a strainer to remove the fly. :D
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01/08/2007 11:52:25 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Why is there not the same suggestion for votes of 8,9, or 10? |
Most people understand why they were given a high score. |
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01/08/2007 12:06:58 PM · #61 |
I was actually glad to see the pop up reminding me to comment on the photo I gave a low score, although I had already commented, so I second (third?) the request to only have it pop up when I haven't commented. I don't seem any harm in the reminder.
As for comments generally, I used to be in favor of requiring comments for low scores, but I've changed my mind after seeing some of the totally useless comments I get even when comments aren't required. Maybe we should beef up the recognition-of-stellar-commenters aspect of the site... certain people can achieve star commenter status or something similar if they consistently give helpful comments.
I'm definitely NOT in favor of requiring a certain percentage of a person's received comments to be helpful. In fact, I think too many people click helpful for every comment regardless of whether it's helpful or not. The "helpful" comment rating has got to be one of the most under-utilized features of the site. I think it would be much more useful not to have just a "helpful" checkbox, by the way, but both "helpful" and "not helpful" so it's clear whether a comment was not helpful or someone just didn't check either box. I LOVE comments that aren't helpful, like "pretty" or "this reminds me of my house," but they don't help me to take better photos, which is why I'd love to be able to not check anything rather than check helpful (which they're not) or not check helpful (which implies I don't appreciate the comment).
edited twice to add things I forgot to say.
Message edited by author 2007-01-08 12:25:05. |
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01/08/2007 01:04:14 PM · #62 |
| I have gotten some of those low score comments and not one of them was in the least constructive, but rather mean instead. No thanks. |
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01/08/2007 01:51:19 PM · #63 |
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01/08/2007 01:59:31 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To me though, this is still a useful comment -- to know that it's not bad focus, poor lighting, or DNMC, but rather that it just doesn't "move" the viewer, still tells the photographer what they need to do next time, if not how. |
I'm just thinking why it is normally harder to express and why fewer comments are left.... |
I agree with your analysis ... : ) |
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