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01/08/2007 01:59:31 PM · #1 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To me though, this is still a useful comment -- to know that it's not bad focus, poor lighting, or DNMC, but rather that it just doesn't "move" the viewer, still tells the photographer what they need to do next time, if not how. |
I'm just thinking why it is normally harder to express and why fewer comments are left.... |
I agree with your analysis ... : ) |
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01/08/2007 01:51:19 PM · #2 |
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01/08/2007 01:04:14 PM · #3 |
| I have gotten some of those low score comments and not one of them was in the least constructive, but rather mean instead. No thanks. |
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01/08/2007 12:06:58 PM · #4 |
I was actually glad to see the pop up reminding me to comment on the photo I gave a low score, although I had already commented, so I second (third?) the request to only have it pop up when I haven't commented. I don't seem any harm in the reminder.
As for comments generally, I used to be in favor of requiring comments for low scores, but I've changed my mind after seeing some of the totally useless comments I get even when comments aren't required. Maybe we should beef up the recognition-of-stellar-commenters aspect of the site... certain people can achieve star commenter status or something similar if they consistently give helpful comments.
I'm definitely NOT in favor of requiring a certain percentage of a person's received comments to be helpful. In fact, I think too many people click helpful for every comment regardless of whether it's helpful or not. The "helpful" comment rating has got to be one of the most under-utilized features of the site. I think it would be much more useful not to have just a "helpful" checkbox, by the way, but both "helpful" and "not helpful" so it's clear whether a comment was not helpful or someone just didn't check either box. I LOVE comments that aren't helpful, like "pretty" or "this reminds me of my house," but they don't help me to take better photos, which is why I'd love to be able to not check anything rather than check helpful (which they're not) or not check helpful (which implies I don't appreciate the comment).
edited twice to add things I forgot to say.
Message edited by author 2007-01-08 12:25:05. |
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01/08/2007 11:52:25 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Why is there not the same suggestion for votes of 8,9, or 10? |
Most people understand why they were given a high score. |
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01/08/2007 11:32:42 AM · #6 |
Here's a fly in the ointment...
If it's made mandatory to leave comments for any score (which I oppose BTW), then should it be made mandatory to acknowledge the comment in some way, i.e. "Helpful" (or add "Acknowledged", etc...).
After all, if I'm forced to take time to leave comments, then recipients should be forced to read/act on them as well. Yes/No?
If a persons ratio of received to helpful falls to a certain level (pick a number - 70%), then they can't enter another challenge until they catch up.
It's hard to teach (leave comments) if the students are absent (not acknowledging feedback).
...ok, now I'm off to find a strainer to remove the fly. :D
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01/08/2007 11:00:47 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To me though, this is still a useful comment -- to know that it's not bad focus, poor lighting, or DNMC, but rather that it just doesn't "move" the viewer, still tells the photographer what they need to do next time, if not how. |
I'm just thinking why it is normally harder to express and why fewer comments are left. It's easy to pick the "faults". Horizon squint, bad sharpening, noise, blur, bad focus, cluttered background, centered static subjects (I know these aren't always faults, or even problems - but they are the things people pick up on). But once you've ran the gauntlet of taking a 'DPC perfect by the numbers/rules' image and you've clearly met the challenge in some fairly literal way, then the image is fine. Good. Just not great, or exceptional, or arresting, or having much 'wow'
So it gets a 5 and most people can't find an easy problem to hit with a comment that says 'too bad about' or 'fix this and '...
The photographer has shown that they can technically take an okay picture. The craft thing is at least at an acceptable level, but then you have to come up with something interesting.
Just my thoughts on why that middle ground is such a big void of comments and hard to cross.
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01/08/2007 10:50:16 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
So to go from a 5 to a 6 or 7, you need to come up with a better concept. Or be able to see and compose visually interesting ideas. It's hard to give a short suggestion in isolation that would improve that. Least most of my 5's go to shots where I feel the picture is fine, just it isn't actually interesting. |
To me though, this is still a useful comment -- to know that it's not bad focus, poor lighting, or DNMC, but rather that it just doesn't "move" the viewer, still tells the photographer what they need to do next time, if not how. |
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01/08/2007 10:32:13 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
If anything, we should be attempting to comment on the 4-5-6 voted shots (although, again, not mandatory). These are the shots that typically get very few comments because they don't evoke people's emotions strongly enough one way or another. They're really the majority of the shots overall, and they're the ones that get neglected in numbers of comments. |
... and would most benefit from suggested improvements to take it from a 5 to a 6 or 7. |
Often I think those are the hardest comments to give though. Because the shots that typically score in the 5 range aren't really bad. There's nothing technically wrong. There usually isn't much glaringly obviously wrong to comment on. It just isn't an interesting photo - or at least - interesting enough to score well.
So to go from a 5 to a 6 or 7, you need to come up with a better concept. Or be able to see and compose visually interesting ideas. It's hard to give a short suggestion in isolation that would improve that. Least most of my 5's go to shots where I feel the picture is fine, just it isn't actually interesting. To me, IMHO, YMMV and all that, but it seems sort of typical - there isn't a way to improve the shot that's entered much - its more a case of taking a different shot or doing something conceptually different or entering it in a more appropriate challenge.
Message edited by author 2007-01-08 10:32:54.
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01/06/2007 12:57:09 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Comments are nice, however comments are not going to turn you into Super Godlike Photog any more than Donald Trump telling you to buy low and sell high is going to turn you into a billionaire. If you are really interested in improving, study it like anything else. Buy books, attend shows, read interviews with pros, study the work of photogs you admire, etc. |
Most people find that they learn more from comments they make than those they receive.
Originally posted by samtrundle:
Surely, by submitting an image to a challenge one is implicitly accepting that the relevant photo will be subject to the judgment and criticism of others. Indeed, I don't think I'm too far off base when I say that entering a photo in a challenge at dpc really amounts to a request for the judgment and criticism of others. |
Some places offer an option for the type of feedback wanted ...
Message edited by author 2007-01-06 12:57:36. |
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01/06/2007 12:45:52 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
If anything, we should be attempting to comment on the 4-5-6 voted shots (although, again, not mandatory). These are the shots that typically get very few comments because they don't evoke people's emotions strongly enough one way or another. They're really the majority of the shots overall, and they're the ones that get neglected in numbers of comments. |
... and would most benefit from suggested improvements to take it from a 5 to a 6 or 7. |
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01/06/2007 12:36:59 PM · #12 |
I'll admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but I picked through it a bit and thought I'd offer a couple cents on it.
A couple people had endorsed the idea of mandatory comments on this or that. And I want to speak out against that, as I have done in similar conversations we've had in SC in the past.
I'm definitely against the idea of making it mandatory to comment on any vote of 1-3, for one thing. I understand the rationale for the pop-up that comes up, suggesting that people *should* comment on such things, but the idea of making it mandatory is just b-a-d.
For one thing, many of us will just say the heck with it and give a really bad shot a 4 for the sake of not having to bother commenting on it. For another thing, if a shot is truly terrible with obvious flaws, plenty of people will already be making those comments anyway. If someone is just starting out here and they're just trying to learn, it certainly wouldn't be too encouraging for them to get a huge string of messages all pointing out the same obvious flaw(s). This is really already the case if you look at any of the Brown Ribbon earners.
Likewise, I'd be against the idea of mandatory comments for high votes. Why? Good shots already get tons of comments anyway. And if this suggestion is merely to discourage "friend voting" (people who give unreasonably high scores to shots that don't necessarily deserve it based solely on knowing who shot it)... well, I don't believe this happens often enough for the end to justify the means.
If anything, we should be attempting to comment on the 4-5-6 voted shots (although, again, not mandatory). These are the shots that typically get very few comments because they don't evoke people's emotions strongly enough one way or another. They're really the majority of the shots overall, and they're the ones that get neglected in numbers of comments. |
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01/06/2007 12:12:38 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by samtrundle:
I'm a little bemused by the idea of a 'user is open to constructive criticism' tagline.
Call me crazy, but I was under the impression that the whole point of DPChallenge was to facillitate the provision and receipt of constructive criticism. |
Precisely -- "open to comments" is the "default state" of any submission; why else would anyone be submitting to a contest where people can comment? Isn't everyone's goal to get a comment from every voter?
Originally posted by svt_gEEk:
There's no reason for an image that ends up scoring above a 4 to even receive a 1 as a vote. |
Sure there is -- mathematics.
You seem to have no problem with the (example photo you cite) receiving a 4 as the cumulative score. Well without those low votes, it might have finished with an undeservedly high score of 6 -- would you then be objecting to how it finished? Most people agree that most pictures finish with around the "right" final score -- the threads listing "under-rated" photos is not usually that large. Without votes distributed across the entire scale, that wouldn't happen. |
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01/06/2007 12:11:10 PM · #14 |
| Comments are nice, however comments are not going to turn you into Super Godlike Photog any more than Donald Trump telling you to buy low and sell high is going to turn you into a billionaire. If you are really interested in improving, study it like anything else. Buy books, attend shows, read interviews with pros, study the work of photogs you admire, etc. |
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01/06/2007 12:10:35 PM · #15 |
| I guess the best way to get comments if you want them is to make a thread in the photography discussion area. That's what I did last night after some discussion here. I have recieved some pretty good tips from people who actually want to help. |
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01/06/2007 12:01:04 PM · #16 |
Intersting thread...
I'm just starting with digital photography and am hoping to learn and improve as I go along here. Sadly, I'm either getting no comments along with low scores or completely unconstructive comments - what's the point?
I don't comment on every single photo that I vote on, but if I'm giving extreme scores - low or high - I try to let the person know why, what works and doesn't work. Sometimes I am not sure that my comments are constructive because I feel I don't know enough terminology to be technically specific. However, being an artist, I try to give my take on the composition.
Bottom line: cconstructive comments are really appreciated! :o) |
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01/06/2007 11:15:32 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by svt_gEEk:
That's why I say that not only should the low and high votes be required to have comments, but also must meet length requirements of a comment in order to keep people from leaving one word comments in order to get their vote to count. |
Ludicrous... what if I left a comment that said:
"This sucks big time.......................... not worth the effort"
Then I cut and paste this wonderful comments and add it to all those images I consider as being of poor quality. I am certain I have met your length requirements, but have you as the recipient gained anything from it?
The voting process on this site is still democratic, and it is best that we leave it as such. We have the "Pop up Box" as a gentle reminder, and that is how it should remain. If indeed we "Require" comments for the upper and lower echelon score, failing which the scores would NOT count, then I fear you will see a dramatic reduction in scoring, and a noticeable "Skew" in the scoring.
Just another man's point of view.
Ray |
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01/06/2007 10:53:08 AM · #18 |
| I personally would like for every voter to leave me a comment. How else am I going to get better if I don't know what people like and what they don't like about my entries? That's the whole reason I joined this site anyway, not to compete among all of you, but to learn through displaying my photographs and recieving votes and comments. I can handle all the constructive criticism in the world. I have PM'd one person that left a comment, but it was because he appeared to have judged my photo soley on subject matter alone, not on the technical aspect. The photo was in a "Simple Pleasures" challenge and the commenter basically said my subject was not a simple pleasure at all just because he didn't enjoy the subject I was depicting himself. I do admit that there has to be some subjectivism in the voting but I never vote any lower just because their subject isn't a favorite of mine. |
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01/06/2007 10:11:21 AM · #19 |
You know, I haven't been here in while. Partly because I've been busy, partly because the I find these same old complaints annoying. When I started voting on the open challenge things were great! Then I voted a pic low and got a message telling me that I should do my part and
give feed back. To be frank, my low vote is my feed back! I will
justify myself to no one! If I like something then great, I'll vote
to show it, and if I don't like a pic, then I'll vote to show it.
My wife once said to a friend of hers "If your not sure your gonna like
the answer, then don't ask the question."
So, I say to everyone! If your not sure your gonna like the response,
or if you can't handle the response, then you should seriously
consider not posting the pic!
Edit: When I say response, I mean vote not comment. But, I guess you should consider both!
Message edited by author 2007-01-06 10:15:27. |
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01/06/2007 10:04:28 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Wouldn't it be fun to reveal names along with all the "1" votes at the end of a challenge?
:-D |
I sometime vote a 1 and wouldn't mind being exposed at all.
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01/06/2007 09:59:41 AM · #21 |
Then the low-voters would just vote all two's. What would really be fun is if they (D&L) randomly revealed a percentage of voters. You'd never know if you were going to get exposed. Sort of like random drug-testing. lol
Message edited by author 2007-01-06 10:00:25. |
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01/06/2007 09:49:48 AM · #22 |
Wouldn't it be fun to reveal names along with all the "1" votes at the end of a challenge?
:-D
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01/06/2007 09:32:57 AM · #23 |
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01/06/2007 09:22:57 AM · #24 |
I'm a little bemused by the idea of a 'user is open to constructive criticism' tagline.
Call me crazy, but I was under the impression that the whole point of DPChallenge was to facillitate the provision and receipt of constructive criticism.
Surely, by submitting an image to a challenge one is implicitly accepting that the relevant photo will be subject to the judgment and criticism of others. Indeed, I don't think I'm too far off base when I say that entering a photo in a challenge at dpc really amounts to a request for the judgment and criticism of others.
Yes, there will be times when we won't agree with that criticism, it might frustrate us, irritate us, or make us laugh out loud at its absurdity. But on other occasions it will provide genuine assistance in our (occasionally futile) attempts to become better photographers.
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01/06/2007 05:35:03 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
If you really want to "fix" the comment system then add a check box that says something to the effect of "user is open to constructive criticism" when the user submits their photo and then let the voters see that so they know how to proceed. I would give umpteen more comments if I knew the person actually wanted them. |
Yes, I have seen other websites that have this. I like it and would recommend that we use it here. |
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