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11/14/2006 09:47:18 AM · #1 |
It's been suggested that periodic challenges for non-ribbon winners be implemented. The main argument against that is that it "waters down" the results. People have said that if they ribboned/did well/etc in such a challenge, they would not feel that they "deserved" it because the competition level was lowered.
My question is this. Has anyone put forth an argument for why that is a bad thing, besides personal preference? What I mean is that I totally understand if an individual would not want to enter such a challenge - but I do not understand why they would feel that the challenge was bad for others to enter if they so chose.
Thanks for any feedback. |
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11/14/2006 09:57:08 AM · #2 |
It's not bad, per se. However, any ribbon won in such a challenge would have the proverbial * permanently attached to it.
It's kind of like the Olympics when they were boycotted by half the world.
A top scorer in such a challenge may have indeed won even if the ribbon winners were allowed to enter. The point is, how will you ever know?
How do you know if you are the best if the best are not allowed to enter?
Also, I don't think the "Ribbon Winners Only" challenge was received very well. I seriously doubt you will see it again.
Of course this is all IMHO
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11/14/2006 10:04:48 AM · #3 |
That all makes sense. I could go to someone's portfolio and see that they ribboned in one of these and see the " * " and think "wow they didn't deserve that" but what if that person had already decided that they didn't mind that perception?
Although you make a good point about the other challenge not being well received - I was not aware of that (or was and forgot).
I actually thought of an argument... maybe someone would decide, say early on in their DPC participation, that they didn't mind - but later on, due to growing as a photographer/gaining more understanding of the DPC community, they regretted that choice. (I'm not sure this is a strong argument though.) |
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11/14/2006 10:07:06 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by klstover:
That all makes sense. I could go to someone's portfolio and see that they ribboned in one of these and see the " * " and think "wow they didn't deserve that" but what if that person had already decided that they didn't mind that perception?
Although you make a good point about the other challenge not being well received - I was not aware of that (or was and forgot).
I actually thought of an argument... maybe someone would decide, say early on in their DPC participation, that they didn't mind - but later on, due to growing as a photographer/gaining more understanding of the DPC community, they regretted that choice. (I'm not sure this is a strong argument though.) |
Suppose we have one of these each week. Taken to the logical conclusion, everyone who participates would win a ribbon. Wouldn't we all feel special then ?
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11/14/2006 10:10:29 AM · #5 |
Playing the devil's advocate, if you WANTED to have "junior varsity" competitions at DPC, restricted to those without ribbons, you could overcome the objections by awarding medals or trophies instead of ribbons; a whole new category of things. You could set it up so anyone with two medals was booted off the JV into the varsity category, or whatever number...
And Gordon, I'm sure we get more than three new members every week anyway, so I seriously doubt your scenario would ever happen.
R. |
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11/14/2006 10:12:31 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And Gordon, I'm sure we get more than three new members every week anyway, so I seriously doubt your scenario would ever happen.
R. |
So vary the frequency. The point is the overall devaluation of the meaning of a ribbon. Each time you'd have a challenge like this it would have that affect. I'm just pointing out where it ends up (like pre-school sports)
The main, recurring objection to a newbie challenge with forced promotion to the 'big leagues' was if a challenge topic comes up that you want to enter, why shouldn't you ? Members particularly got in a twist about that one. So then the suggestion is to run the challenges concurrently - a 'pro' league and a newbie league on the same challenge, then it comes back to what if a 'better' picture won the newbie league - how would you know, wouldn't you feel cheated.
And off around the houses we go again. I think pretty much all the permutations that will come up in this thread have come up and been rejected over the last 5 years or so. The threads are all there for review, to find something new :)
Message edited by author 2006-11-14 10:14:46.
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11/14/2006 10:18:45 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And Gordon, I'm sure we get more than three new members every week anyway, so I seriously doubt your scenario would ever happen.
R. |
So vary the frequency. The point is the overall devaluation of the meaning of a ribbon. Each time you'd have a challenge like this it would have that affect. I'm just pointing out where it ends up (like pre-school sports) |
Well, I'm not an advocate of this proposal anyway; my only point is you can avoid devaluing ribbons by giving some other sort of award, so that's not an argument against the proposal in and of itself IMO.
R. |
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11/14/2006 10:20:46 AM · #8 |
I think its a great idea to have a `non-ribbon winners` challenge.. You could even have a subject such as
"To win a ribbon I would........" Then the image title/picture.
And maybe dont award a Blue/Red/Yellow Ribbon, maybe top 5 get a pink one. I think its a great idea. It would allow the more seasoned/decorated DPCers a chance to vote on the challenge and make a lot more comments, thus benefitting a lot more novices. Maybe do one once every 3 months or so. Yup, sure is a good idea and one I would like to see implemented.
Message edited by author 2006-11-14 10:21:19. |
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11/14/2006 10:21:32 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
It's not bad, per se. However, any ribbon won in such a challenge would have the proverbial * permanently attached to it.
It's kind of like the Olympics when they were boycotted by half the world.
A top scorer in such a challenge may have indeed won even if the ribbon winners were allowed to enter. The point is, how will you ever know?
How do you know if you are the best if the best are not allowed to enter?
Also, I don't think the "Ribbon Winners Only" challenge was received very well. I seriously doubt you will see it again.
Of course this is all IMHO |
And for the record, I don't have a ribbon . . . . YET!
And I would choose not to enter a challenge that was for non-ribbon winners only.
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11/14/2006 10:30:09 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
And for the record, I don't have a ribbon . . . . YET!
And I would choose not to enter a challenge that was for non-ribbon winners only. |
i'm w/ scarbrd and gordon... i've said it before and i'll say it every time this dead horse raises up to haunt the forums : i would never enter such a challenge and hope to never see them happen.
way too much like giving all the 6 yr old kids in a soccer league participation awards...
great for 6yr olds, but arn't we adults?
of course, your milage may vary...
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11/14/2006 10:35:12 AM · #11 |
For me it's a question of visability.
Who's in everyones favourites list? I bet the likes of  Larus, Joey Lawrence and kiwiness are there, nine times out of ten. Now these guys are, IMHO, Legends. We all love them, and I love it when they get Ribbons, they are, in a word, inspiring.
In local Football (UK) and Rugby Clubs we have Under 17's and Under 21's teams for a very good reason. You can hone your skill and craft in an evnironment that supports and encourges, and you get the visability that pushes you higher and higher.
If one of the site favourites makes a post that says 'Black is White', you get 11 pages of agreement and debate. I do it, three days later I have one reply. Why? I'm not as visable as the tops dogs.
Larus, Joey Lawrence and kiwiness...and everyone else in my favourite list...you guys rock and you continue to inspire us all.
Message edited by author 2006-11-14 10:36:54.
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11/14/2006 10:36:58 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
The point is the overall devaluation of the meaning of a ribbon. |
Okay, this makes sense to me.
It probably was worded like this in another thread so I do apologize for being a bit dense about this. :-) |
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11/14/2006 10:37:42 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by PurpleFire:
For me it's a question of visability.
Who's in everyones favourites list? I bet the likes of Larus, Joey Lawrence and kiwiness are there, nine times out of ten. Now these guys are, IMHO, Legends. We all love them, and I love it when they get Ribbons, they are, in a word, inspiring.
In local Football (UK) and Rugby Clubs we have Under 17's and Under 21's teams for a very good reason. You can hone your skill and craft in an evnironment that supports and encourges, and you get the visability that pushes you higher and higher.
If one of the site favourites makes a post that says 'Black is White', you get 11 pages of agreement and debate. I do it, three days later I have one reply. Why? I'm not as visable as the tops dogs.
Larus, Joey Lawrence and kiwiness....you guys rock and you continue to inspire us all. |
So basically, you want a ribbon so that you're popular and people will like you? |
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11/14/2006 10:39:43 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by mk:
So basically, you want a ribbon so that you're popular and people will like you? |
NO.....I want to Ribbon with an entry that is worthy of a Ribbon, regardless of who's taking part!
I just don't think that these specific challenges are a bad idea, in fact I think there a good idea.
Take from it what you will.
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11/14/2006 10:40:02 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by PurpleFire:
If one of the site favourites makes a post that says 'Black is White', you get 11 pages of agreement and debate. I do it, three days later I have one reply. Why? I'm not as visable as the tops dogs. |
Or have they earned the right to have their thoughts given more weight ? If they are consistently appearing at the top of the pile around here, shouldn't maybe what they have to say about photography have more value at dpc ?
Or is it all just popularity ?
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11/14/2006 10:43:45 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by mk:
So basically, you want a ribbon so that you're popular and people will like you? |
well... to be quite honest, that's exactly why I want a ribbon :)
(but i want a full strength ribbon, not a grade school "nice try" one...)
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11/14/2006 10:47:54 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by PurpleFire:
If one of the site favourites makes a post that says 'Black is White', you get 11 pages of agreement and debate. I do it, three days later I have one reply. Why? I'm not as visable as the tops dogs. |
Or have they earned the right to have their thoughts given more weight ? If they are consistently appearing at the top of the pile around here, shouldn't maybe what they have to say about photography have more value at dpc ?
Or is it all just popularity ? |
OK, lets not kid ourselves. 80% of it is due to their sheer talent and the stunning images they produce day in, day out. However, 10% is due to the fact they are very visible individuals around here, have been here quite a while thus know a lot more people on here. The final 10% is, lets face it, Photogrpahy Jocks (I think `jock` is the word the americans use). Everyone wants to be associated with the most popular boys in school..
I am not knocking them, I would love to produce images even half as good as some of the stuff they continuously post, they are photo-factories.
I could name a case of someone who used to be the golden boy around here, and when he spoke everyone used to sit up and listen, or bow down to them. Now they are Dave Average like the rest of us, and disappeared into obscurity. Like I said, everyone wants to hang out with the popular gang at school..
But I do love you all. But only as you continuously score high and win ribbons... lol
However you only have to read what they say to see they are genuninely all-round really decent people.. and they all love photography, so hey!! you're all ok by me!
(just reading through it, the above refers to the fact why they are so populr here, not why they always win, which is 10000% pure talent and skill)
Message edited by author 2006-11-14 10:51:25. |
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11/14/2006 10:51:01 AM · #18 |
| We already HAD such a challenge. Frankly, it seemed like an "everyone is special" challenge for the perennial bridesmaids. Once you get past the excellent first place winner the highest score was a 6.5, so maybe all it did was remove the high end (and many of the people who entered compelling images have since ribboned in other challenges anyway). |
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11/14/2006 10:57:43 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
We already HAD such a challenge. Frankly, it seemed like an "everyone is special" challenge for the perennial bridesmaids. Once you get past the excellent first place winner the highest score was a 6.5, so maybe all it did was remove the high end (and many of the people who entered compelling images have since ribboned in other challenges anyway). |
Wow, I definitely wasn't aware of that. Thanks. |
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11/14/2006 11:44:52 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Suppose we have one of these each week. Taken to the logical conclusion, everyone who participates would win a ribbon. Wouldn't we all feel special then ? |
I don't care how many training wheels you strap to my ass I doubt I'm going to ribbon anytime soon. LOL
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11/14/2006 11:51:48 AM · #21 |
All of the arguments are quite true about "watered-down results", "sullied quality of the winners", and "having an asterisk in front of the ribbon." However, I for one am willing to admit that I would jump at the chance to have any kind of recognition for whatever skill I do have in the SCRUB League. The encouragement would embolden me to improve my skills just that much more!
I have become able to accurately assess my skill...and...I am well aware that I have a long way to go to be a really fine, really consistent photographer. Therefore, even SCRUB League is by no means a "Gimme" for a ribbon for me, but I'd love a shot at it.
Once again, let me compliment all the excellent, World-Class photographers on DPChallenge! I am really thankful that you let me play! :)
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11/14/2006 12:00:45 PM · #22 |
I'm not necessarily advocating doing this, but it seems that it would be fairly easy to add an honorable mentions list to the existing challenges that would display the highest finishing entry for certain categories (such as non-ribbon winner, first challenge entered, under eighteen entrant, etc.,). In this way you could recognize people who fall in these categories without having to have separate challenges.
Just a thought. |
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11/14/2006 12:02:49 PM · #23 |
I don't love them, nor do they inspire me, though occassionally their pictures do, but not as often as some other photographers here.
Larus does give me a tingling sensation, though... ;)
So, from now on, please replace "We all" with "All of us except for posthumous" just to be safe.
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11/14/2006 12:10:36 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
I'm not necessarily advocating doing this, but it seems that it would be fairly easy to add an honorable mentions list to the existing challenges that would display the highest finishing entry for certain categories (such as non-ribbon winner, first challenge entered, under eighteen entrant, etc.,). In this way you could recognize people who fall in these categories without having to have separate challenges.
Just a thought. |
Now, this, I really like.
I used to like the idea of a challenge for non-ribbon winners, but this thread has really spun my view 180 degrees. Thinking back to when I was in high school, I ran cross-country. I spent most of by career on the "B" team (JV). I won several "B" races. But was I satisfied by it? Heck no, I wanted to be on the "A" squad. When I did run the "A" races, I finished way back in the pack, but I didn't care, because I knew I was on the varsity. Each squad was seven runners. I was seventh on our team. To this day, I'm still proud of having been the 2nd best "7th man" at the state meet.
Message edited by author 2006-11-14 12:10:55.
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11/14/2006 12:46:45 PM · #25 |
I donĂ¢€™t think this would be a good thing for the photographers or the site. The goal here is to improve upon your skill and artistic level and be at piece with your improvement. The ribbons are accolades that do not make you a better photographer than you were before you won a ribbon. In each challenge there are many hidden gems that in some opinions were better than the ribbon winners. The only thing ribbons do is put you on the front page giving you a week of fame; concentrating on sacrificing the photographs that appeal to the majority but inspires you for a lifetime is the better in my opinion.
I donĂ¢€™t think we need more exclusive challenges to hand out more ribbons. The site has already gone from giving out three ribbons to include honorable mentions up to 5th place and starĂ¢€™s by your picture if you are in the top 10. Where does it stop? Yes everyone here, including myself, would like to ribbon at least once but I can assure you there are photographers here that has not won a ribbon that is just as good as some photographers that have a list of ribbons. I feel adding more ways to ribbon or get honorable mentions will degrade the true meaning of this site; learn, teach, share, and indulge in self-satisfaction that you are proud of your work.
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