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09/17/2003 01:43:51 PM · #1 |
I'm retiring Zeus' Top Pic(k)s.
It has been a rewarding experience for me and, to judge from the sometimes overwhelming response I received here or via PM and email, for more people than I expected. I am truly grateful for this.
On the other hand, I regret that my initiative seems to have spawned such a noise that it is becoming increasingly more difficult for anyone to be heard and seen.
When I started this topic, I had hoped that by investing a little more time and effort (than may be the norm) to study a photograph (to try and look at it from all angles) and compare it to others here and elsewhere, I would be able to make a small contribution to the quality and culture of comments, a concern many had already voiced at the time. I also, naively, believed that by letting sincerity (focusing on the photo, not the photographer) guide me, that, in the long run, good would come out of this.
Instead, and inconceivably to me, I have had to witness an onslaught of personal vendettas against a number of initiatives (including my own) to extract a little meaning from some of what makes our world here go round. I cannot and won't fault anyone for ignorance. It's not possible to have all the facts all of the time. I do regret, that an ignorant minority can have such sway at the expense of what [i}could[/i] be.
I do not, for a minute, presume to know what art is and what not. I do claim, however, an affection for it. It does not surprise me, that those who share this care, look elsewhere to expend their particular energies.
I appreciate this site for what it is and will continue to participate and support it, but without investing as much and as intensely as I have tried to do with Zeus' Top Pic(k)s.
A special thanks to those who so graciously expressed their enthusiasm not just about this topic, but about the pitchers, as John would say.
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09/17/2003 01:53:18 PM · #2 |
Perhaps you should continue your efforts using the various mechanisms already put in place to allow you to this ? namely the comments sections and the critique club ?
The only thing that was being objected to was the daily spamming of the forums by more and more 'here's my daily personal opinion' threads, when there are entirely more appropriate locations for them, already in place. This isn't the first time a rash of personal voting posts appeared, nor is it the first time that requests had been made to make the comments in an appropriate fashion.
Should I post a note in a forum every time I comment on a picture, just so people know I've done it ? That's all these threads ever are.
If more indepth analysis of the pictures actually occured in them, they might have some validity, but as they typically just point back to the comments, (which was the correct place to put the comments in the first place) they serve no useful purpose beyond hubris.
Once again to be clear. Detailed comments, feedback, discussion are extremely welcome and should be encouraged at every turn. But spamming of the forum is not necessary, nor does it improve the quality of discussions, mainly by obscuring more relevant threads.
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 13:54:55.
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09/17/2003 01:54:11 PM · #3 |
zz, just wait til we get a POTD forum in place and then go for it!! alternately use "Rant" for now...
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09/17/2003 02:00:47 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
...Once again to be clear. Detailed comments, feedback, discussion are extremely welcome and should be encouraged at every turn. But spamming of the forum is not necessary, nor does it improve the quality of discussions, mainly by obscuring more relevant threads. |
I have to agree on all points, Gordon. There's no bitterness or reservation on my part. I only felt that withdrawing my topic would point in the same direction. |
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09/17/2003 02:08:11 PM · #5 |
Another disapointing end to a nice idea. I would like to make a suggestion. should you have the opportunity to e-mail your top picks, I would like to be on that list. Effective end run to those that have no wish to expand the breadth of this site.
What you had given all, was another personal column, when looked at in that sense was not unlike something you might read in a local newspaper. if you do not care for the columnist dont read!
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09/17/2003 02:25:07 PM · #6 |
I like reading what people have to say about certain photographs. Which photos are 'favorites' by any given person is basically irrelevant to me. It's not often that a group of people this size would ever agree on what is the 'best' photo in a group.
What I enjoy MOST is going back to read what people had to say about my own personal favorites. I like to see the diversity in the comments and possibly see some ideas and opinions that I may have overlooked. I can only do this by going back to the photo after the challenge.
Zeus, this is not directed at you, but if the opinions are shared on the photograph itself during the challenge, anyone who is interested can go back and look at the photo aftwards and read about your (collectively) ideas.
If I want to follow the comments of any particular user, I can do that from their individual profile page.
Like Gordon said, there are already mechanisms in place to handle all of this. I don't really understand the reason for any individual to make a public post to the entire site.
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09/17/2003 03:05:57 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Firstrich1:
Another disapointing end to a nice idea. I would like to make a suggestion. should you have the opportunity to e-mail your top picks, I would like to be on that list. Effective end run to those that have no wish to expand the breadth of this site.
What you had given all, was another personal column, when looked at in that sense was not unlike something you might read in a local newspaper. if you do not care for the columnist dont read! |
You could just look at his favourites list, or his most recent comments ? To do this, go to the profile page and click on the number next to the 'made' for comments - you can see all of the most recent comments, in order, for any person on the site.
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09/17/2003 03:30:15 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I like reading what people have to say about certain photographs. Which photos are 'favorites' by any given person is basically irrelevant to me. It's not often that a group of people this size would ever agree on what is the 'best' photo in a group.
What I enjoy MOST is going back to read what people had to say about my own personal favorites. I like to see the diversity in the comments and possibly see some ideas and opinions that I may have overlooked. I can only do this by going back to the photo after the challenge.
Zeus, this is not directed at you, but if the opinions are shared on the photograph itself during the challenge, anyone who is interested can go back and look at the photo aftwards and read about your (collectively) ideas.
If I want to follow the comments of any particular user, I can do that from their individual profile page.
Like Gordon said, there are already mechanisms in place to handle all of this. I don't really understand the reason for any individual to make a public post to the entire site. |
Again, the intent, John, was to incite a manner of looking at pitchers. The ranking is relevant, in that it reflects the level of enthusiasm (a form of energy) derived from it.
I do agree with you on the unprofitable effect, the choice of ranking in a hierarchy has apparently had, despite some degree of care having gone in explaining both intent and motivation for posting in the forums, thus providing a good reason for removing it. |
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09/17/2003 03:34:32 PM · #9 |
Zeus, I applaud the concept of 'manner of looking at pitchers' :) I would love to see a whole series of posts on this theme. It would also be lovely to use examples from outside the scope of DPC for that theme :)
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09/17/2003 05:32:13 PM · #10 |
Looks like Redmapper's shot has retired too! DQ'd?
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09/17/2003 05:33:38 PM · #11 |
Yep, altho there seems to have been a problem recalculating the rest of the results.
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 17:33:59.
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09/17/2003 05:34:24 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:
Looks like Redmapper's shot has retired too! DQ'd? |
it looks so, the title page is a bit strange right now |
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09/17/2003 05:36:45 PM · #13 |
I think the ribboned photos are directly coded on the page, rather than extracted from the database of results. D&L aren't available right now to re-code the page, although "we" took action to DQ the photo now (it was not taken within allowable dates.)
The link to the now-third photo and appropriately colored ribbons should appear "shortly."
We are switching to a more automated (and consistent and timely) DQ system, and there are many bugs to work out as we start using it.
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 17:38:56. |
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09/17/2003 05:40:41 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
We are switching to a more automated (and consistent and timely) DQ system, and there are many bugs to work out as we start using it. |
Has this led to any accidental DQ requests? |
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09/17/2003 05:43:01 PM · #15 |
No accidental requests, but some people may have experienced 2 requests for the same image over the past week, while the new system overtook the old one.
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09/17/2003 05:48:43 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
We are switching to a more automated (and consistent and timely) DQ system, and there are many bugs to work out as we start using it. |
Has this led to any accidental DQ requests? |
I think one person got two requests for verification, but only because one happened before the system was activated, and then again when we were testing it. I think the situation was explained to the person via emails.
We are now making it so it is not dependent on D&L to issue verification requests, evaluate returned originals, or authenticate or DQ entries as appropriate.
This all got coded and activated within the last few days, so there's likely to be a shaking-out period. Remember that a request for verification is no big deal so long as you are following the rules. Personally, I want a DQ request because it means I took so great a photo they think I must have cheated ... I'd take a "This Image Has Been Validated By The Administrators" note to be the equivalent to an "Honorable Mention" .... |
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09/17/2003 06:39:36 PM · #17 |
From the Community | DPChallenge Forums page.
Underneath the "Challenge Results" link there is a statement which explains what is the scope of that category:
"Discuss challenge results here. Did the winner deserve to win, or did another photograph?"
Today I have heard way too many critics patronizing who discussed such issues...
IT IS EVIDENT that somebody pretty different from whoever founded (and maybe managed this site) has taken over (or believes to have taken over) the policy of the site.
WELL... it would be better if the site would be updated to match functionally and in content the new policies instead of being here to discuss of what should be allowed and what should not on basis which are clearly in contrast with what is STATED on the site descriptions.....
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 18:42:14.
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09/17/2003 07:02:04 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
From the Community | DPChallenge Forums page.
Underneath the "Challenge Results" link there is a statement which explains what is the scope of that category:
"Discuss challenge results here. Did the winner deserve to win, or did another photograph?"
Today I have heard way too many critics patronizing who discussed such issues...
IT IS EVIDENT that somebody pretty different from whoever founded (and maybe managed this site) has taken over (or believes to have taken over) the policy of the site.
WELL... it would be better if the site would be updated to match functionally and in content the new policies instead of being here to discuss of what should be allowed and what should not on basis which are clearly in contrast with what is STATED on the site descriptions..... |
Here here! |
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09/17/2003 07:19:58 PM · #19 |
I think the "complaints" (at least mine) are not about having a discussion about the previous challenge and photos in it, but having that discussion broken up among 26 individual threads which people start whenever they feel like it. It is impossible to see all the posts, or to make comparisons this way.
I think there can be a single follow-up discussion thread for each challenge.
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 19:21:28. |
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09/17/2003 07:35:22 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think the "complaints" (at least mine) are not about having a discussion about the previous challenge and photos in it, but having that discussion broken up among 26 individual threads which people start whenever they feel like it. It is impossible to see all the posts, or to make comparisons this way.
I think there can be a single follow-up discussion thread for each challenge. |
While I appreciate many other of your posts, this one just sounds like an attempt to patch an hole which is too big to be removed that way.
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09/17/2003 07:43:37 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think the "complaints" (at least mine) are not about having a discussion about the previous challenge and photos in it, but having that discussion broken up among 26 individual threads which people start whenever they feel like it. It is impossible to see all the posts, or to make comparisons this way.
I think there can be a single follow-up discussion thread for each challenge. |
That is entirely reasonable.
However, in most of the threads being spoken about, there are frequent attacks on their right to exist at all.
Some people think that it is wrong to display your opinion, because it implies that you think everyone else is wrong.
That is certainly the attack that happened on my thread of a photo I thought needed recognition.
I will also not be continuing to reward photos that in my opinion had gone neglected, and will be a less enthusiastic member of this community. I agree with 'glimpes' that somebody pretty different from whoever founded (and maybe managed this site) has taken over (or believes to have taken over) the policy of the site.
I might just look around for other communities that reward individuals for having opinions of their own.
Sadly,
Bob |
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09/17/2003 08:00:26 PM · #22 |
mine too.
my goal is only to pursue a way to consolidate and organize these types of threads which have proliferated of late.
personally i dont really care what people post about. i tihnk everyone has a right to post their opinion and i have no desire to legislate what people talk about, even if it's not what i'm interested in.
as long as it's not hurting others, i have no interest in regulating or censoring forum posts.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think the "complaints" (at least mine) are not about having a discussion about the previous challenge and photos in it, but having that discussion broken up among 26 individual threads which people start whenever they feel like it. It is impossible to see all the posts, or to make comparisons this way.
I think there can be a single follow-up discussion thread for each challenge. |
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09/17/2003 08:12:00 PM · #23 |
I have thought that maybe some system-generated threads would help to keep the forums managable. When a challenge is posted the system would generate a thread in which to discuss the topic. When voting starts create a thread for outtakes. When voting is over generate a thread for discussing the results.
If the threads were seen as 'official' it may encourage people to post & discuss more while making it clear that there is a proper place for each type of post.
I'm prolly over-thinking things again, but it's an idea ...
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09/17/2003 09:19:50 PM · #24 |
FWIW, which is probably nothing...
As one who voiced some opposition to one particular recurring thread (oh, yeah, it was this one!), my objection was not with discussing which pictures you liked, didn't like, thought would/should/could have done better. In fact, I don't even care if the word "deserved" were used. Bobsters threads didn't bug me - he was just announcing a fact of the voting after it was finished.
I objected to the officious, self-righteous langauge used in presenting those opinions. It was a slap in the face of the REAL winners, as well as to the voting community at large. I also objected to the ranking of three personally selected photos as if they were the true 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winners, and even worse was placing those rankings in the pictures' comments, as if ordaining them with some official seal of approval.
But, after making my opinion known a couple of times (and ignored - I guess if you don't agree with the big guy, your opinions aren't worthy of discussion), I more or less let it go. But I must say that seeing so many others finally getting sick of it, I do feel a bit... vindicated, I guess.
Ya know, changing the wording in the opening message would have been so easy....
And then the POTD thing kicked in. I don't know... did it get to be about having your name in a thread topic? Hard to figure out.
Whatever. The separate forum seems the appropriate solution, but whatever D&L decide...
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 21:20:42. |
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09/17/2003 09:37:01 PM · #25 |
Your unfounded attacks are not only misinformed and ill-motivated but also lack in tone, if then this means anything to you.
I'm not interested in personal vendettas, Scott. It's pitchers that interest me.
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