The uselessness of comments... - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

07/10/2006 04:41:55 PM · #51

What we have here, is a failure to communicate...er something.

What is a Comment?
What is a Critique?
Should you expect every comment to be a critique?

I just peeked at My Comments Made and I would be hard pressed to call any one of them a good critique. Hey, I suck as a photographer so who am I to tell Librodo that there is something technically amiss with his image?! (which i did) *gasp*. But I bet he appreciated the comment for what it was...just an observation. Not a critique.

I think there definitely is a place (and a need) for both Comments and Critiques here at DPC.

The only problem is, on challenge entries, messages typed during voting about an image get lumped into one category, "Comments"...

Maybe if there was a drop-down choice of "Comment" and "Critique" next to the vote button, the photog will have a better understanding where the commenter is coming from (their intention). If you could categorize your thoughts, DrAchoo could select "Critique" on his very insightful thoughts...where I would select "Comments" for my blathering drivel.

In turn, for those that are labeled "Comments", the photog can select "Thank you" (or whatever) checkbox - and for the "Critiques", they can select "Helpful".

Again, I have blathered on...shirking my work.

I would mark this post as more of a "comment" than a "critique".

Carry on.

scarbrd

Leica M10

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

07/10/2006 04:42:23 PM · #52

How about this . . .

Since we track the average of the people that comment, why not automatically put the score of the commenter along with the comments?

I realize that this will probably reduce the number of comments, but this will end the practice by some people who are commenting positively yet voting low.

Just an idea.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

07/10/2006 04:44:24 PM · #53

Originally posted by mattmac:

Hey, I suck as a photographer so who am I to tell Librodo that there is something technically amiss with his image?!

This is the most common misconception.

Most people feel the need to give a technical critique. Personally, I find other types of critiques much more useful. I think people want to know how their photo makes you feel more than how technically excellent or poor you think it is.

joynim

Olympus E-500 EVOLT

Olympus 40-150mm f/3.5-4.5 Zuiko Digital

07/10/2006 04:45:47 PM · #54

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I think that most comments aren't very helpful either. I think the critique club comments are often lacking information that would be really useful to the photographer also.

Anyone interested in putting together a simple 'side group' to do comments that are useful? Something above and beyond what we have here now? I think we can learn how to offer useful critique rather quickly.

Yes

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/10/2006 04:48:40 PM · #55

Originally posted by mattmac:

What we have here, is a failure to communicate...er something.

I agree. First I think we need to define exactly what we hope to accomplish here. In my opinion, adding extra checkboxes just serves the person receiving the comments and does nothing to change the behavior of the person leaving the comment, which I assuming is the point of this thread.

Nuzzer

Canon EOS-7D

07/10/2006 04:49:59 PM · #56

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Anyone interested in putting together a simple 'side group' to do comments that are useful? Something above and beyond what we have here now? I think we can learn how to offer useful critique rather quickly.

I'd be keen to be part of this. I am just starting out though.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

07/10/2006 04:50:10 PM · #57

Originally posted by mattmac:

What we have here, is a failure to communicate...er something.

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by mattmac:
Hey, I suck as a photographer so who am I to tell Librodo that there is something technically amiss with his image?!

This is the most common misconception.

Most people feel the need to give a technical critique. Personally, I find other types of critiques much more useful. I think people want to know how their photo makes you feel more than how technically excellent or poor you think it is.

I agree with that.

Message edited by author 2006-07-10 16:52:05.

TechnoShroom

Canon EOS-30D

07/10/2006 04:51:40 PM · #58

Originally posted by vxpra:

I think some people are intimidated by leaving a comment. They're afraid that what they say will be taken wrong or that someone will read the comment and say "Geez, what a moron!!!" Which leads me to the point that I think we should have 3 boxes 1)Comment was helpful 2)Comment was read 3) Commentor was clearly a moron. Clicking the third box will lead both your name and the commentors name to be put on a list. Should people acquire or give more than 30 moron clicks in a month you are cast into a cage and forced to fight to the death. The winner gets all the losers camera gear. Things seem to be getting a little too calm around here.

The problem here is that I would be looking for all the people with nice equipment and only leave trashing comments on their photos. Well, maybe not "all" the people. Small women, children, the handicapped, and elderly though would all be receiving a lot of comments from me.

Elvis_L

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/10/2006 04:52:04 PM · #59

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I would agree. while technical comments can help alot, and I want them. I also like comments less technical in nature that just tell me what they like or don't like. this will help me understand what a less technical public like.

wheeledd

Panasonic LUMIX-DMC ZS100

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/10/2006 04:54:28 PM · #60

Originally posted by yanko:

I would say the rare exception. In the 27 challenges I have entered only one time did the commenter average fail to be higher than my actual score. Usually it's about 2 full points higher so if anything commenters tend to give higher than normal scores.

Yanko, I'm afraid that I can't accept your evidence--you photography is too good. The OP raised the issue that some people may be giving good comments to pictures they really don't think are good (as shown by the votes they give).

Pictures in the top half of the results tend to get comments from those who really liked them, so commenter average votes are higher. Pictures in the bottom half tend to get comments from people explaining why they voted low, so commenter vote average is typically lower than the overall average, especially near the bottom.

I've looked at the comments on the bottom images in a couple of the recent challenges. Most of them were pretty clearly pointing out problems with the images. I saw no sign that the problem of false positive comments is widespread.

On the other hand, I can understand the urge to be positive to people even when giving low votes. For a while I was giving comments explaining all of my low votes--and being honest about the votes I gave. I got back several nasty comments from people. Next I started giving suggestions but not being as direct about how I had voted. This worked better but I still didn't feel that I was being received as helpful. I've now quit giving comments on any of the images I give low votes to. (I do give several 1's and 2's in almost every challenge).

--DanW

klstover

Panasonic DMC-FZ8

07/10/2006 04:57:05 PM · #61

Originally posted by mattmac:

This is one of the most interesting and potentially useful ideas I have heard. I would certainly love to take advantage of this option when making comments / critiques on images!!

fencekicker

Panasonic DMC-FZ5

07/10/2006 05:00:31 PM · #62

The reason that the comment helpful box seems to be confusing is because some people use it for thanking their commenters, and some use it to mark comments that help them understand what was/wasn't so good about their photo. Then there are probably even a few people who don't even bother with reading comments. I suspect that anyone who reads their comments is thankful for them.

So,in my opinion there should be two check boxes:

- Thank you! :)

- Thank you; your comment is very helpful! :D

If people are leaving moron comments... like: "You suck! Do yourself a favor and sell your camera." Then perhaps another box could be added "report comment to Site Council." (which I am thinking might already exist).

Anyway, just another opinion.

TechnoShroom

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

07/10/2006 05:01:25 PM · #63

Originally posted by wheeledd:

A comment is just that, a comment, not a score. Trying to correlate it to a score isn't really productive. At least once I've left a comment that something was a great photo and scored it a 1 because it didn't have anything to do with the challenge.

mattmac

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

07/10/2006 05:03:10 PM · #64

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

Which is why I like my idea :-) of having categories...
If I wrote a COMMENT that said, "You truly captured an amazing life moment! Great job!" - you might feel that someone 'out there' was touched by your image, and you may be tempted to say 'Thank you'.

But I wouldn't really call that comment neither "helpful" nor a "critique" ...I mean, it is, in a way...but not in the same way DrAchoo (and others) comments are. But that doesn't mean it has less of an impact to the photog.

I think the current architecture of only being able to choose "Helpful" can lead many people to panic and have serious anxiety attacks about how to handle the comments that they receive...so they freeze, and do nothing. And then this poor comment will rest alone, cold, without the warmth of that coveted "Found this Helpful" cloak.

07/10/2006 05:06:09 PM · #65

Wheeledd, you may be right but I also did look at my 8 lowest scoring images which were scored 5.4 or lower and only one out of those had a commenter average below that of the actual score (the one from Textures). And really that one doesn't even count since the two people that did leave comments were critical so their vote matched what they wrote.

Btw, is commenter even a word or should I be using commentator? :P

Message edited by author 2006-07-10 17:22:00.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

07/10/2006 05:18:12 PM · #66

Originally posted by TechnoShroom:

Originally posted by wheeledd:
Yanko, I'm afraid that I can't accept your evidence--you photography is too good. The OP raised the issue that some people may be giving good comments to pictures they really don't think are good (as shown by the votes they give).

A comment is just that, a comment, not a score. Trying to correlate it to a score isn't really productive. At least once I've left a comment that something was a great photo and scored it a 1 because it didn't have anything to do with the challenge.

What also isn't productive is you saying something is great when it wasn't for the challenge.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

07/10/2006 05:20:15 PM · #67

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

my guess on the "sadsfa" comment is that someone didn't realize you don't have to leave comments. They may not have thought their vote would count otherwise.

Easy answer - they have a cat or a kid. :-)

mattmac