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03/31/2006 06:51:03 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Look at the box highlight labelled "More familiar, less troubling" For the statement "Immigrants today are a burden because they take jobs and housing" only 47% agreed in areas of high immigrant population and 65% agreed in a areas of low immigrant population. "Immigrants strengthen the US with their hard work and talents" had 47% agree in high immigrant areas and 27% agree in low immigrant areas. |
I wonder if that means illegal or legal immigrants, because my answers would be different. I think its talking about immigration as legal immigration.
I find it interesting in the areas that make the distinction, Section I - Immigration: How Big a Problem
It shows that in all areas 3% of people find legal immigration to be a problem while more than 50% and 60% say illegal is the problem, in the communities surveyed. I think this is comparing one, legal, to the other, illegal.
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03/31/2006 07:05:12 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by robs:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Any legitimate arguments against this? |
How are you going to know who is illegal and who is not?
I agree a large part of the issue is employment in things where people/companies know exactly what is going on. |
Well as far as a company is concerned, you have to show 2 of many different identification papers. Which after 9/11 a lot was removed from the valid id list.
As far as me and you hiring a worker for whatever, brick layer, landscaper, etc. do the same thing.
A few years ago I needed to have brick work done on my fireplace. The bricklayers I interviewed were agast when I asked them to provide verifiable proof of insurance. Which the first guy wouldn't do, so NO SOUP FOR YOU! The second guy took a couple days, but he did - I then called the insurance provider and made sure that he was covered.
No way was I going to be held responsible if that guy fell off my roof and broke his neck.
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03/31/2006 07:16:26 PM · #28 |
Well, it appears that whatever your view, you can find about 1/3rd of the pie to back you up. Personally, I don't see illegals as a "scourge on society". Our lifestyle is dependent on them. I'm sure the "ship them back" community would think twice after their food, produce, and textile costs went up substantially.
I'm not supportive of plain open amnesty. There needs to be a process, and for good reason. But immigrants are not the cause of our crime, poverty, lack of education and disease. We can point the finger well enough at people born on our own soil.
And to whomever pointed out that there are 30 million poor in the US compared to 10 million in Ethiopia. Get real. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that there are 60 million Ethiopians compared to 300 million Americans.
So if I'm to ask you which country you would prefer to live in, the obvious answer is Ethiopia? |
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03/31/2006 07:20:00 PM · #29 |
Here in Southern California, it is quite an issue.
My personal feelings on the matter are simple:
Wanna' live in this country, do it legally and follow the same rules & laws I do. Learn the language and customs and ways of the land and conform to it's ways, not vice-versa.
I have no issues with migrants that cross the border to work here and provide for their families, as they are doing the type of work many of us won't do - manual labor for less than minimal wage.
Want medical care? Wanna vote? Simple - become a citizen, gain employment, pay taxes - simple - it's what I have to do.
If I moved to a different country, I would be doing my damndest to learn the language and conform, not expect them to change for me.
When a State (California) puts a vote as to what the official language of the State should be - English or Spanish - there is something very wrong. (yes, that actually did happen a number of years back) |
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03/31/2006 07:36:45 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, it appears that whatever your view, you can find about 1/3rd of the pie to back you up...... |
I think that was an undertone of the article.
You are right, immigrants arent the cause of our crime, poverty, education or disease, I don't think anyone is lumping immigrants together like that.
I think most people are up in arms about illegal immigrants border jumping. Me, I'm upset that we are entertaining amnesty and put the fact that we aren't going to do anything about the legal / illegal part of it.
Looking at the CIA.gov world factbook Ethiopia has a population of 73,000,000+ with a GDP / capita of $800 and a population below poverty percentage of 50% (thats 36.5 million). Not a big surprise, we all really knew the figures were like this. What is interesting is the AIDS/HIV percentage of the population, of 4.4%. I thought it was MUCH higher, on the order of 40%+.
The United States:
Population: 295,000,000+
HIV/AIDS: 0.6% (lower than I thought)
GDP/Capita: $41,800
Poverty %: 12% (higher than I thought)
-Rick |
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03/31/2006 07:46:27 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by BradP:
When a State (California) puts a vote as to what the official language of the State should be - English or Spanish - there is something very wrong. (yes, that actually did happen a number of years back) |
z
Arnold Changes California's Official Language
The new California Governor has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the state, rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, The Terminator's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Austro-English" (or, perhaps even better, "Austrionics".)
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.
Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.
If zis mad yu smil, pleas pas it on to oza pepl.
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03/31/2006 08:09:29 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by CarpeNoctem:
What is interesting is the AIDS/HIV percentage of the population, of 4.4%. I thought it was MUCH higher, on the order of 40%+.
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HIV is epidemic in sub-saharan Africa. Think Zimbabwe, Zambia, etc. |
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03/31/2006 08:31:51 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
HIV is epidemic in sub-saharan Africa. Think Zimbabwe, Zambia, etc. |
Yeah it seems any country south of Chad is severe epidemic, Botswana is highest I've found at over 37% (thats prevalant adult figures NOT per capita)
When you compare that to say the poverty rate in Ethiopia it makes you think....
-Rick |
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03/31/2006 09:44:35 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by CarpeNoctem:
Originally posted by BradP:
When a State (California) puts a vote as to what the official language of the State should be - English or Spanish - there is something very wrong. (yes, that actually did happen a number of years back) |
z
Arnold Changes California's Official Language
The new California Governor has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the state, rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, The Terminator's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Austro-English" (or, perhaps even better, "Austrionics".)
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.
Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.
If zis mad yu smil, pleas pas it on to oza pepl. |
This is great!!!!!!! LOL
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03/31/2006 10:35:07 PM · #35 |
I recall reading somewhere that 30-40% of all immigration to the US has occurred within the last 40 years. This coincides with the passing of the Immigration Act of 1965, which Ted Kennedy help get passed, the same Ted Kennedy that has joined McCain to fix the problem today. I guess that's like hiring Bush after his term is over to fix the problems in Iraq.
So in a nutshell your grand kids will probably be talking about this very same issue in the future.
Message edited by author 2006-03-31 22:36:21.
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03/31/2006 11:45:58 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by yanko:
I recall reading somewhere that 30-40% of all immigration to the US has occurred within the last 40 years. This coincides with the passing of the Immigration Act of 1965, which Ted Kennedy help get passed, the same Ted Kennedy that has joined McCain to fix the problem today. I guess that's like hiring Bush after his term is over to fix the problems in Iraq.
So in a nutshell your grand kids will probably be talking about this very same issue in the future. |
Is immigration the problem? Or border jumping?
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04/01/2006 12:00:41 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by CarpeNoctem:
Is immigration the problem? Or border jumping? |
Well, for anybody above who has mentioned language as an issue, I'm guessing it's immigration. I doubt the border jumpers are responsible for the ubiquity of spanish in our country. |
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04/01/2006 03:31:24 AM · #38 |
For those that claim that illegals benefit our society: I am totally with you on that, but I think more could be done - like bringing over a few boatloads of Chinese slave children to make cheap toys and chachkes for our happy meals.
For those who quote ANY U.S. poverty statistics, keep in mind that 96% of those people living in "poverty" own a color TV. And the stats do not include the benefits they receive from the government. Poverty in the U.S. rivals middle class in many countries in the world.
Now where's my happy meal...
Message edited by author 2006-04-01 03:32:15. |
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04/01/2006 08:52:07 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
For those that claim that illegals benefit our society: I am totally with you on that, but I think more could be done - like bringing over a few boatloads of Chinese slave children to make cheap toys and chachkes for our happy meals. |
I am confident this was "tongue in cheek" and with it I concur. I simply do not understand the argument that illegal's working in abusive conditions is somehow "good". The argument genearlly continues to equate lower prices for "citizen consumers" as justification for the misuse/abuse. If this is in fact a valid argument position, then why stop there? Why not sanction (as in formally approve of), separating out classes and select who will be the "slave" labor producing goods that maximize business owner profit. Those that advocate the position of "illegal's are good because of labor..." rarely address the conditions of their work. It is even more disturbing to me to read and hear advocates of this abuse against "illegal's" are typically the same choir that sings the abuse song of our own underclass, and how they are disaffected members of society, and require more government money to support them. On the one hand they defend illegals labor abuse while on the other preaching that our own destitute are abused becuase we don't offer them meaningful work. What????
Societies will always have underclass. Typically unskilled immigrants willing to work for less, because it is more than they had from where they came. These same immigrants within a generation or 2 have assimilated into the societies and become contributing managers of it, via small business owners, local politicians, clergy and a host of other more skilled jobs. Their families are part of the fabric of the country. The Africans,Irish, Italians, French, Germans, Chinese, Polish, Spanish, Russians, Indians, Pakistanis and many, many more have all at one time or another been the immigrant class, working for less, in jobs "other citizen's" wouldn't do. They assimilated and in some cases became Presidents. This is a very different path than illegal masses jumping borders. Protesting while carrying Flags from their homeland and demanding that they be given "rights".
I don't know for sure, but I kind of struggle with that one.
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04/03/2006 08:29:56 AM · #40 |
Been seeing alot more American flags displayed in the rally coverage. Someone is at least getting the PR machine running. Pretty irritating to see a sea of foreign flags during a protest on demanding american citizenship/rights. If your protest is about becoming part of the legal fabric of america, then shouldn't you be represented by that country's flag?
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04/21/2006 12:16:27 PM · #41 |
Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Rec'd in an e mail.
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04/21/2006 12:29:32 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. |
I don't agree with that statement. The US economy would be in a lot better shape if the illegal immigrants didn't send the majority of their earnings back to Mexico rather than spend it here. Did you know that Mexico's second largest source of foreign income, right behind oil exports, is money being sent from illegal workers in America? In 2003 it was Mexico's largest source of income. Therefore, if that money were being spent here, the US economy would be in better shape wouldn't you agree?
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04/21/2006 12:38:05 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, it appears that whatever your view, you can find about 1/3rd of the pie to back you up. Personally, I don't see illegals as a "scourge on society". |
Apparantly, you still hear English (or mostly English) when you go to a store or restaurant. Try only hearing Spanish, being the only English speaking family in McDonalds or Sears, having more Spanish billboards than English ones, every form for schools, doctors, etc bilingual, every PTA and church meeting bilingual (takes twice as long because everything is said twice!). How about 3 to 5 families living in the house next door with 8 cars parked everywhere. Maybe not a "scourge", but a definite loss of culture, and certainly not a melting pot.
And to add to dudephil's post, I am not sure how illegals pay into social security and income tax since they can't have a social security number. Surely most are paid cash.
Message edited by author 2006-04-21 12:40:18. |
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04/21/2006 12:39:06 PM · #44 |
It's time for me to renew my Canadian passport, so I went to get my Registration of Birth Abroad Certificate, but it's lost (We moved).
I'm a man without a country! Will anyone take me!?!?
Now I cannot renew my passport until I get a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship, which takes over seven months.
I asked if I still had to pay income tax, and I do. :-(
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04/21/2006 12:44:28 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, it appears that whatever your view, you can find about 1/3rd of the pie to back you up. Personally, I don't see illegals as a "scourge on society". |
Apparantly, you still hear English (or mostly English) when you go to a store or restaurant. Try only hearing Spanish, being the only English speaking family in McDonalds or Sears, having more Spanish billboards than English ones, every form for schools, doctors, etc bilingual, every PTA and church meeting bilingual (takes twice as long because everything is said twice!). How about 3 to 5 families living in the house next door with 8 cars parked everywhere. Maybe not a "scourge", but a definite loss of culture, and certainly not a melting pot.
And to add to dudephil's post, I am not sure how illegals pay into social security and income tax since they can't have a social security number. Surely most are paid cash. |
Bilingual doesn't necessarily equate illegal. |
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04/21/2006 01:01:16 PM · #46 |
| I am speaking from my experience of living in Houston Texas from birth to 2002. There were large numbers of various immigrants, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Mexicans being the largest groups. Yes, many Mexicans came legally, and those tended to want to "melt", or at least learn the language. However, vast number of illegals didn't even like the US and had no desire to adapt to our culture. As for the Asians, there were no bilingaul forms for them, and few places that could translate. Most quickly learned at least enough English to do business and communicate necessities. |
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04/21/2006 01:08:33 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
And to add to dudephil's post, I am not sure how illegals pay into social security and income tax since they can't have a social security number. Surely most are paid cash. |
Social Security and income tax don't keep the economy going. They could spend their earnings on our goods rather than sending it home to Mexico. This would mean that their money would at least be flowing back into our own economy.
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04/21/2006 01:10:34 PM · #48 |
Maybe we need to learn Spanish? I'm one for thinking that Americans are possibly smart enough to learn two languages. Lord knows most other civilized countries do it.
Welcome to the 21st century. |
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04/21/2006 02:40:34 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
And to add to dudephil's post, I am not sure how illegals pay into social security and income tax since they can't have a social security number. Surely most are paid cash. |
Social Security and income tax don't keep the economy going. They could spend their earnings on our goods rather than sending it home to Mexico. This would mean that their money would at least be flowing back into our own economy. |
With what we pay these folks (so little that "Americans" won't take those jobs), the only stuff they can afford to buy is at Wal-Mart, which means most of their money flows to the Walton clan and China ...
BTW: "Arnold's Language Proposal" is largely based on this previously published suggestion:
For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud
hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.
-Mark Twain (1835 - 1910), "A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling"
Message edited by author 2006-04-21 14:45:24. |
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04/21/2006 03:11:52 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by CarpeNoctem:
Edit: BTW Those of you who think the migrant workers are doing jobs that americans wouldn't do - you'd better ask the 5% unemployed in this country if that's a job they wouldn't do, period. That's just rouse to cover the issues. Actually it's more accurate to say americans won't do that job for peanuts. Why? because the COST OF LIVING is more than that job provides STANDARD OF LIVING. If that job now becomes a higher paying job, which it will regardless of what the legislators do - because now it's in the forefront - you will find many americans wanting that job - because now they can LIVE as america politicians promise us!
-Rick |
You say this as if 5% unemployment is a bad thing. In fact Greenspan and his ilk go out of their way to keep unemployment at a certain level. 100% employment would be a terrible situation for the economy. Of course the macro and micro view on this is quite different, depending on if you happen to be in the unemployed group or not...
Meanwhile the illegal immigration problem always seems to get phrased in terms of low paying jobs. But 20% of computer hardware engineers are working in the US illegally and that isn't exactly a low pay, low skilled job.
it isn't as black and white an issue as the news wants to paint it (just for a change)
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