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12/07/2005 04:29:59 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, I think, for the most part, the talent leaves because the un-talented are voting on their photos and they dislike the undeserved ones-fours. Not that I am skilled...I'm not at all...but there is no way my entry in the Industrial challenge should have rated a three or below. What we need is a group of QUALIFIED judges. |
This falls under what Ursula just mentioned.. thinking you're better than you are or more deserving than you are. If you want juried competitions, there are plenty of sites out there that offer that. |
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12/07/2005 04:35:28 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, I think, for the most part, the talent leaves because the un-talented are voting on their photos and they dislike the undeserved ones-fours. |
To me, this seems like the sensible thing to do. I don't understand the number of people who complain day in and day out about how stupid the voters are and how DPC can't appreciate photos that are "good" and how their photo didn't get the vote it deserved, etc. If you don't respect the audience you're submitting to and you've already decided what your photo is worth, why keep submitting? Challenges aren't mandatory. If you were consistently unhappy with the results, as a number of people here seem to be, why not seek out a place you respect more? |
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12/07/2005 04:36:29 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by mk:
why not seek out a place you respect more? |
I think the OP was hoping this could be DPC but with .. controls. Hell, I wouldnt be in their top tier group - but I'd LOVE to see it.
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12/07/2005 04:43:14 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Setzler and Gordon have both pulled for more 'advanced' challenges or more advanced rules to accomodate what people are learning and what they want to do. I would ask them if they see this to respond to that inquiry:
WHY do the best photographers DPC has continue to leave? |
Here are a couple thoughts. Take a look at the front page of DPC today with these challenges visible:
Candlelight
4-5am
too early
too late
say cheese
knife/fork/spoon
free study
In my opinion, there is one and possibly a second challenge out of seven that would inspire me along my own lines of photography. I actually have been looking for an opportunity to participate in some challenge, but I can't make myself spend any time on 'novelty' themes. My focus in photography is starting to narrow a bit after doing it for about 4 years. I am inspired by specific things and I would simply rather spend my time working on those things rather than spinning my wheels chasing virtual ribbons and accolades from all the nice K-Mart shoppers. The things I enjoy in photography these days don't appeal to the general public. I know and understand this quite well. It's rather pointless for me to submit to challenges when I know the scores will be poor. I have gotten to a point where I don't really care much about what the general public thinks about any of my photos. If I like one of my photos, that's all that really matters to me. I don't need or want the feedback of hundreds of people who may or may not understand why I shot what I shot.
I have grown to dislike shooting for themes in general. I agree that it's a good learning tool but it got boring for me over time. I have themes that I pursue regularly and I will continue with those for quite some time.
DPC could evolve to accommodate a wider interest, but I don't believe that the site's goals are to bring in a more diverse crowd. I think that the site admins are probably content with the current system because it hasn't changed in quite a while.
I don't believe that grouping the site into ability levels would solve anything. There was a lot of vocal opposition to that several times in the past. I think that 'focus groups' that are rather small would be useful in maintaining prolonged interest. Some of the forum groups are working in the right direction for this, but there is no facilitation of focus groups beyond forum discussions. Some of these groups have been quite successful because it offers people the opportunity to work with others who have similar interests and goals. THIS would be one way to advance beyond the general challenge-mania on the site.
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12/07/2005 04:48:47 PM · #55 |
Do you suppose it's possible that some people simply get bored with the place? Or, maybe they burn out from entering too many challenges for too long? These 'top' people that you mention all have lots of ribbons right? Well, you're not going to get lots of ribbons here unless you enter lots and lots of challenges. Then too, maybe some of them just feel that it's not that much fun any more.
We could call it the "Lily Von Shtupp Syndrome":
I'm tired,
tired of playing the game,
ain't it a crying shame?
I'm so tired.
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12/07/2005 05:14:16 PM · #56 |
I find it more remarkable that so many (of those named in the various groupings mentioned here) are still around and participating significantly.
For a popular (free) internet site with an open membership policy and volunteer-based administration, I think there's an incredible amount of stability.
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 17:15:02. |
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12/07/2005 05:27:35 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I find it more remarkable that so many (of those named in the various groupings mentioned here) are still around and participating significantly.
For a popular (free) internet site with an open membership policy and volunteer-based administration, I think there's an incredible amount of stability. |
Agree 100% I have a lot of experience at that (internet sites of various sorts that involve participation) and this is one of the more stable "public" ones I have ever seen.
Robt. |
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12/07/2005 05:42:59 PM · #58 |
I don't think the question is about stability. The question was why aren't certain photographers who used to participate regularly still doing so.
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12/07/2005 05:57:21 PM · #59 |
I don't know, to me it's not really that much of a question why certain photographers who used to participate regularly don't anymore. I figure they have their reasons, but I don't waste much time thinking about it. Stability for those who stay is much more important to me.
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12/07/2005 06:35:53 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I don't think the question is about stability. The question was why aren't certain photographers who used to participate regularly still doing so. |
I loved this site 3 years ago. I needed the input and the community gave great feedback. But, my mom died at the end of 2002 and I realized I wanted to do more with my "creativity" before it was too late. I joined a newspaper (Media General and then The Washington Times) to be "Creative and Advertising Director" for special projects for these papers. I made my life change the way I wanted it to before it was too late.
But life in the creative world eats all your time as I am sure many graphic designers, photographers and other artists can attest. How can you enter hobby challenges when everyday is a creative challenge?
I tell my story because I think a lot of people have similar changes in life. Family changes, Job changes. Some are choices, some are forced on them.
I'm back entering again due to a change again in jobs and to refresh my interest in my hobby photography at another level. My interest here has actually gotten the other photographers I work with fired up..I am trying to convince a few to come here but what I find with most of them is they don't like competition. Their photograpny is for them and the idea of being "judged" sorta makes them nervous...and this from adults!
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 18:38:00.
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12/07/2005 07:26:16 PM · #61 |
When I first got cable and learned about the internet, the first thing I did for a while was chat. Quickly got sick of that, and discovered paltalk. LOVED the trivia rooms for a while. Next came the Karaoke rooms, really enjoyed the singing. Then I got into photography, and trivia and Karaoke were pretty much forgotten. Got busy on DPC for a while, then took a break because too many things were bugging me. During my break, I re-visited the trivia rooms. etc etc etc
This virtual world is all for fun, and there is no need to religiously stick with ONE thing, we all go through phases.
For every shutter genius we lose, a new one is in the making. |
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12/07/2005 08:05:07 PM · #62 |
The problem with the current voting system is that nobody can just be happy and accept what they get! It received what people thought it deserved! |
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12/07/2005 08:07:48 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, I think, for the most part, the talent leaves because the un-talented are voting on their photos and they dislike the undeserved ones-fours. |
To me, this seems like the sensible thing to do. I don't understand the number of people who complain day in and day out about how stupid the voters are and how DPC can't appreciate photos that are "good" and how their photo didn't get the vote it deserved, etc. If you don't respect the audience you're submitting to and you've already decided what your photo is worth, why keep submitting? Challenges aren't mandatory. If you were consistently unhappy with the results, as a number of people here seem to be, why not seek out a place you respect more? |
Well, thanks MK, for the invitation to leave. Not quite the response I would expect from Site Council. Is this the same reaction you would have had for the fellow member discussing the sparky nude in another thread? What I was doing was giving another example of low votes given which were not deserved and expressing my opinion as to why people in general leave this site. Decline of competent voting is, by the way, part of the thread subject. Do you mk, think the voters are smart, across the board?
Thanks muckpond, for doing the thumb for me. When I tried, it came out as a clickable.
Message edited by author 2005-12-08 12:16:15. |
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12/07/2005 08:25:02 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, I think, for the most part, the talent leaves because the un-talented are voting on their photos and they dislike the undeserved ones-fours. |
To me, this seems like the sensible thing to do. I don't understand the number of people who complain day in and day out about how stupid the voters are and how DPC can't appreciate photos that are "good" and how their photo didn't get the vote it deserved, etc. If you don't respect the audience you're submitting to and you've already decided what your photo is worth, why keep submitting? Challenges aren't mandatory. If you were consistently unhappy with the results, as a number of people here seem to be, why not seek out a place you respect more? |
I totally agree with you here mk! As I stated earlier in the thread, the votes you receive are what the voters thought it deserved. Everyone sees a photo differently. Just accept what you get! |
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12/08/2005 11:05:23 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Ok, this makes the third time I have tried to have these words discussed, but they keep getting lost in the original "Industral Nude" thread.
I felt they needed their own thread, so here goes.
The following thoughts are a reaction to the discussion of this image and why it got a low score.
But, this is only one example! Please try not to make your discussion of the following center around this image. That is not my intent. The idea is to have some discussion about what is or is not flawed about the present voting system--not this image.
Originally posted by hokie:
I am not usually somebody that says one thing or another about how someone else votes however...
Anybody who voted less than a 5 on this photo should not be allowed to vote any longer at this site. If photos like this are rated "below average" I just don't see the incentive to even participate here for people trying to do anything of extra-ordinary work. |
Yep.
Seriously, the voting system of this site is deeply flawed. It's not really anyones fault, either, its just the way it is. I'm sure D and L have done what they can to account for "troll" voting, but there is nothing in place to prevent "bad" voting.
And people, we got a lot bad voting going on.
I think we should have to earn the right to vote around here. It should be a privilege, not a right. I would rather have 50 thoughtful votes than 300 mindless ones. And I believe such a move could go a long way towards making this a more constructive place to learn as well.
Give anyone the ability to comment, but only let folks that have exhibited some degree of photographic and artistic competence carry the right to vote.
This has been discussed before I'm sure. But I missed those threads. If someone could point them out I would be most grateful. |
another bad voting thread
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12/08/2005 01:39:01 PM · #66 |
| Interesting how this thread got completely twisted into "why good members leave" kind of thread after I left for work yesterday. I should remember to never start threads unless I have an ample amount of time to watch them :) |
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12/08/2005 02:00:37 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by mk:
[quote=David Ey] Well, I think, for the most part, the talent leaves because the un-talented are voting on their photos and they dislike the undeserved ones-fours. |
Do you mk, think the voters are smart, across the board?
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Whether or not someone has talent does not make them good judge. How many art critics are also artists? And who is to say the ones-fours are not deserved? Are the voters smart across the board? Well, most have figured out how to use a computer, navigate the internet, take and process photographs (with varying degrees of success, but still able to get them onto the website). Most are probably paying for all this (camera, software, computer, internet access) so I assume they are capable of holding down some sort of decent paying job.
And here is a question I would like all the complainers to answer:
Do you always agree with every art critic, even the respected ones? How about sports judges--they are all trained and tested before being allowed to judge, and their opinions vary. It seems what the self proclaimed talented, artistic photographers on this site want is for everyone to recognize their genious and give them the 10's they deserve. All others are poor, uneducated, unintelligent voters not deserving to give their "wrong" opinions. |
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12/08/2005 02:06:33 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Well, thanks MK, for the invitation to leave. Not quite the response I would expect from Site Council. |
Just to clarify, this isn't a response from 'Site Council'. I believe the post was from MK, who is an individual. MK, who has her own opinions and statements, just like anyone on this site. EVERYONE, even the people who don't take such good pictures...Like me.
And I think everyone deserves their own opinion. Me and my camera simply do not get along. I suck as a 'photographer'. For the people in this thread to tell me that my vote doesn't matter, or that my vote is stupid and bad, because I'm not a great photographer, really ticks me off.
People have been talking about the 'decline of DPC' for years, and guess what? It's still thriving, even though the past 'favorite' fads have moved on.
I'm not sitting here whining because New Kids on the Block aren't popular anymore. They've passed, they're done. Doesn't mean they were pissed off at the music industry, just means that it's not something they do anymore. I got over it. Appreciate the contributions they made, and remember them, and then go put in your newest fad CD.
Personally, I'm going to go browse Joey's portfolio, maybe a little of Ursula's, and some librodo while I'm at it. |
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12/08/2005 02:19:38 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Interesting how this thread got completely twisted into "why good members leave" kind of thread after I left for work yesterday. I should remember to never start threads unless I have an ample amount of time to watch them :) |
Did you also notice that you were identified as having left the site?
So.... What brought you back? :) |
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12/08/2005 02:44:50 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Interesting how this thread got completely twisted into "why good members leave" kind of thread after I left for work yesterday. I should remember to never start threads unless I have an ample amount of time to watch them :) |
Did you also notice that you were identified as having left the site?
So.... What brought you back? :) |
Well, I never felt as though I left. I just watched from a greater distance.
And I don't mean to be disrespectful of anyone by posting this thread, I just feel there could be a way to make things better. |
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12/08/2005 03:22:54 PM · #71 |
Tangent:
Seeing the thread title inspired me to think it deserves a book deal...
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12/08/2005 03:24:45 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Tangent:
Seeing the thread title inspired me to think it deserves a book deal...
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No forward for this one?
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12/08/2005 03:36:04 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
No forward for this one? |
Nah, mcmurma mentions me in the dedication part. ;-) |
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12/08/2005 03:42:04 PM · #74 |
I am 3 days away from my two year anniversary as a registered member at dpc. In the first year I entered 21 challenges. This year, I've only entered 12. My reason is that I'm just choosier about when and what I enter. If it somehow fits with my schedule or inspires me, then I'll go for it. I'm certainly not among the better photographers here, but I think there are a variety of reasons participation changes.
I don't think we would ever come up with a voting system that would please everyone. If we split into "levels" people would complain about that too. If we determined who could vote and who couldn't, I betcha we'd lose a lot more people than what has been metioned so far.
Rather than having the site administrators responsible for trying to keep everyone happy, I think it's more the responsibility of the participants to decide individually if being active on the site is helpful and enjoyable. It appears that it has been very, very helpful and enjoyable to an incredible number of talented and not so talented photographers.
I use dpc for information, relaxation, motivation, and as only ONE aspect of my interest in photography. Like any large group, there are frustrations and I'm glad we are free to discuss them.
Rather than being overly concerned with the scores or voting, I am very grateful and thankful to share this space with some incredibly talented and patient photographers who always seem available to help. Perhaps they are frustrated by votes as well, but by being around to help inspire and inform those of us looking to grow in the art of photography, they have provided much more than the votes could ever accomplish anyway. I hope to be as helpful to others on the site, even with my limited skill level. I feel I am improving, and actually the voting system has, at the very least, toughened up my response to critcism of my photos. It has helped me chose MYSELF...not through someone else's selection....whose opinions I value, whose criticisms and/or praise help move me along the path of growing as a photographer.
Thanks DPC
Message edited by author 2005-12-08 23:05:51. |
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12/08/2005 03:52:27 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by jpochard:
It has helped me chose MYSELF...not through someone else's selection....whose opinions I value, whose criticisms and/or praise help move me along the path of growing as a photographer.
Thanks DPC |
Very well said...
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