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11/10/2005 08:33:31 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
And one to make a joke out of the entire concept. |
no, no. that was a lampoon ;-)
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11/10/2005 08:55:15 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by A1275:
...the presumption that the jury would serve as an elite group, telling the general population of voters where they "went wrong" in choosing the winners and proposing alternate "real" winners. |
We all have different amounts of "viewing" experience. Likewise, some members here spend more time on "photography" than others. I wouldn't mind "judgment" from those of us who are not only regarded as an "elite" but also have enough experience and judgment skills, based on their photography experience and exposure to the artform.
Maybe we'd get more constructive comments on technique and "vision" than the usually appreciated, but often neutral in terms of learning value comments. |
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11/10/2005 08:58:01 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
And one to make a joke out of the entire concept. |
Really not trying to make a joke out of it. Just pointing out how rediculous it seems to me. One person decides to do a good thing and posts it to the forum and all hell breaks loose.
This was not a bad thing that someone was trying to do TO us. It was a good thing that someone was trying to do FOR us.
When I started reading the thread it reminded me of the "forum members changing a lightbulb" thing I got in an email several years ago so I looked for it online. Sure enough it sounded very much like this thread.
No offence meant by posting it.
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11/10/2005 09:03:30 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by rgo:
Originally posted by A1275:
...the presumption that the jury would serve as an elite group, telling the general population of voters where they "went wrong" in choosing the winners and proposing alternate "real" winners. |
We all have different amounts of "viewing" experience. Likewise, some members here spend more time on "photography" than others. I wouldn't mind "judgment" from those of us who are not only regarded as an "elite" but also have enough experience and judgment skills, based on their photography experience and exposure to the artform.
Maybe we'd get more constructive comments on technique and "vision" than the usually appreciated, but often neutral in terms of learning value comments. |
rgo, you are absolutely right. Like I said, I'm happy to participate if this idea comes off -- in any form. I have no problem with learning from others, I've spent the last year doing exactly that. In addition, it is a fact of life that some here are better at photography than others, and the instrinsic value of constructive comments from those that are the best is certainly held in high regard by everyone. My comment and suggestion was meant to deal with perception rather than mechanics.
I really wish that Setz and company would re-consider. I participated in a mentorship thread with Setz prior to this and was sad when it ended. |
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11/10/2005 10:59:30 PM · #80 |
My camera club has competitions at most meetings throughout the year. We vote on prints and slides in a similar way to what we have here at DPChallenge. At the end of the year, the top 3 places from each of the normal competitions is elegible to participate in the year end competition. These prints and slides are gathered and provided to an impartial group of 'jurors' who provide a set of winners (top 3) from all the submissions. They also provide a critique on each entry, which is very refreshing. The most interesting part of that year-end competition is the critique. The reason it's so rewarding is because the judges are NOT photographers. They are art scholars in one form or another. Last year, we had three jurors. One was a sculptor, and the other two were painters (oil, acrylic, and watercolor.) These three jurors pick our top 3 images of the year and also choose a 4th 'winner' that is given the "Frank Miller Artistic Award." Frank is a late member of our group who was one of the club's 'pioneers' of what we consider to be fine art... not your traditional landscapes, flowers, and sunsets... something that transcends those boundaries and provides a message of sorts through imagery.
The most recent juried competition that I entered was judged by a single juror. He wasn't a photographer either. In fact, he wasn't an artist of any kind really. He was a an art professor at our local private liberal arts college. I got a 2nd place in that exhibit that carried a $200 prize, which really amazed me since the competition was not limited to photography. It was open to any form of visual art. First place was a scrap metal sculpture, 2nd place was one of my photographs, and third place was a pencil sketch.
Diversity is a good thing. My intent with this project was to try to offer some sort of fresh look and feel for what we are doing here at DPC. I had no intentions of trying to debunk the current methods. Someone in a recent post here hit the nail on the head. My intent was to offer a way to find out how our images are regarded by those who we admire the most, without interference or bias from the general public. My goal had nothing to do with scores or generic voting. The result would have been a display of 7 photographs. The first three would have been the collaborative top 3 chosen by the jurors. The additional 4 would have been the favorite of each juror.
What this accomplishes is a view through a more narrow set of eyes. Presumably, those eyes are ones that we trust, admire, and appreciate.
There is a lot of talent here on DPChallenge that is unrealized. I have an odd feeling that a large majority of folks here may never compete or show their work in any other venues. Local and regional juried art competitions are wonderful and very worthwhile. Those of you who think your work is not good enough to compete or win these competitions are probably sadly mistaken. In fact, most of the juried photo exhibits I have entered are won by images that would stand absolutely NO chance of a top 50% finish here on this site. My goal with this project was two-fold.
1. To show how a narrow group of jurors would most likely choose winning photos that did NOT correspond with a mass public vote.
2. To encourage our DPC artists to pursue greater things while continuing to use DPC as a learning tool and sounding board.
The free study would have been the perfect challenge to realize this experiment. In a free study, voting is not guided by the voter's interpretation of the challenge topic. Every image is it's own world and is more likely to be scored as an individual photograph rather than part of a large collective.
I have read many forum threads here where folks have entered their work into local art and craft fairs with very positive and winning results. I would like to simply propogate that theme and encourage people to create diversity in their own avenues of showing their work.
So.. as this will be my closing statement in this thread, I encourage everyone who reads this to set a goal for yourself to enter your work into at least two juried competitions over the next year. Most worthwhile juried competitions are not free to enter. You can expect to pay anywhere between $25 and $50 to enter your PRINTS.
I think I will personally try to assist in this encouragement by trying to gather and maintain a list of outside competitions that are available. If anyone would like to help me compile and maintain this list, please let me know... |
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11/11/2005 12:10:53 AM · #81 |
Bravo John!
My only complaint...go with a few more jurors.
I for one, would be curious what Arnit, Zeus, GriGriGirl, Ubique and a few(many)less vocal DPCers thought of my work.
There's a consistantly high ranking crew, in all the Challenge forms that I would love to see on the panel. People that kick...in any style.
...any way it goes...I'm in.
Cheers |
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11/11/2005 01:41:25 AM · #82 |
I think if you would've just went ahead and did it without pre-announcing, it would have been a success. You still would had people whining, but that is unavoidable until scientists discover and remove the "whining" gene.
"It is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission" or something like that. :)
My final thought on the subject: "Whatever."
...comes from my being in that last 1% group of popcorn eaters and beer drinkers (and RED HOOK ESB is NOT generic beer, for any toilet-hugging milk spewers who thought it is). :) |
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11/11/2005 07:31:53 AM · #83 |
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11/11/2005 08:20:47 AM · #84 |
Ya know, nothing is perfect, ESPECIALLY in this site.
The x and the y factors are present, but not the z. Black and white ideas are the norm, but when a grey idea is introduced to fill the spectrum, to make the picture better with detail, then all anyone wants to do is put their thumbs in their mouths, and cuddle back under the security blanket of tried and true.
In the industry that I represent, all those $8 tickets you spend at your local theatre were available ONLY after all avenues of critique were sought by audience guinea pigs.
Revenge of the Sith, before its final cut, before it was released to the general public, before, before, before.... not in whole, but in pieces, by a testing audience to see if certain scenes worked or not.
Stop the whining, grab your ankles, and relax. Improvement is good, especially for those of us that want to improve.
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11/11/2005 08:32:21 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by swinging_johnson_v1:
In the industry that I represent, all those $8 tickets you spend at your local theatre were available ONLY after all avenues of critique were sought by audience guinea pigs.
Revenge of the Sith, before its final cut, before it was released to the general public, before, before, before.... not in whole, but in pieces, by a testing audience to see if certain scenes worked or not. |
Yeah, was that testing conducted by studio execs or by someone who swiped a couple of early drafts and showed them on their own?
Some people here were objecting to the method of implimentation, more so than the underlying idea. |
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11/11/2005 08:49:04 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Some people here were objecting to the method of implimentation, more so than the underlying idea. |
Actually, I went through this thread, and the original, and only found one person, Ursula, who had any objection at all, which she 'sort-of' retracted. I think gibun was joking.
So this isn't going to materialize because of Setzler's delicate sensibilities....?
Screw that, I'll take over.
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11/11/2005 08:51:03 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by Brent_Ward:
Originally posted by ursula:
I was the one objecting, and I was objecting personally, not as a SC member.
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Your opinions, being a part of the SC, are viewed as an opinion of the people who run the site. Do you think a president could make a comment, then say it was just his personal opinion, not the opinion of the president's? |
We on Site Council are participants in the site, the same as anyone else.
No post from any member of Site Council should be considered an opinion of the site, or of the Site Council as a whole, unless that is explicitly stated in the post.
~Terry
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11/11/2005 09:10:08 AM · #88 |
John,
I for one like this idea and am pushing to see if we can sanction it officially. The idea would be to run a future challenge with an Extra Rules flag stating that any entries to the challenge would also be part of this experiment.
This would be an extra challenge and not replace a regular weekly challenge.
I can't promise anything but I'll keep you posted as the discussion progresses.
~Terry
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11/11/2005 09:12:17 AM · #89 |
I've PM'd jsetzler & the judges. If at least three of the four judges will agree to carry on, I'll do my best to organize in the absence of jsetzler. Unless, of course, by doing this I manage to coerce Setzler into continuing for fear of me screwing up his fine project.
Otherwise, I'll deal with any comments from squeeky wheels with the respect & consideration they deserve. >:-)
edit -- The judges are the ones doing all the work, so without them the project is truly lost.
Message edited by author 2005-11-11 09:14:10.
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11/11/2005 09:15:48 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I've PM'd jsetzler & the judges. If at least three of the four judges will agree to carry on, I'll do my best to organize in the absence of jsetzler. Unless, of course, by doing this I manage to coerce Setzler into continuing for fear of me screwing up his fine project.
Otherwise, I'll deal with any comments from squeeky wheels with the respect & consideration they deserve. >:-)
edit -- The judges are the ones doing all the work, so without them the project is truly lost. |
If you don't mind, give me a chance to see if we can officially sanction this on a future challenge (see my previous post). I think there's a lot of merit to this idea, and I really want to see it happen.
~Terry
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11/11/2005 09:18:45 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I've PM'd jsetzler & the judges. If at least three of the four judges will agree to carry on, I'll do my best to organize in the absence of jsetzler. Unless, of course, by doing this I manage to coerce Setzler into continuing for fear of me screwing up his fine project.
Otherwise, I'll deal with any comments from squeeky wheels with the respect & consideration they deserve. >:-)
edit -- The judges are the ones doing all the work, so without them the project is truly lost. |
If you don't mind, give me a chance to see if we can officially sanction this on a future challenge (see my previous post). I think there's a lot of merit to this idea, and I really want to see it happen.
~Terry |
Awesome!
I'd only even sent the PM to bearmusic so far. :-)
Message edited by author 2005-11-11 09:20:04.
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11/11/2005 09:23:43 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Some people here were objecting to the method of implimentation, more so than the underlying idea. |
Actually, I went through this thread, and the original, and only found one person, Ursula, who had any objection at all, which she 'sort-of' retracted. |
Well, I had an objection to the method -- I haven't explored the actual proposal enough to know if I support it as-is or another variation. As Terry said, let's do this "officially" and (almost) everyone will be happy. |
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11/11/2005 09:26:29 AM · #93 |
I think that's great. I guess I was typing & spell-checking "coerce" while clubjuggle made his post above mine, so I didn't see his post.
:-)
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11/11/2005 09:32:56 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Well, I had an objection to the method -- |
So I'll add you to the squeeky wheel mob.
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11/11/2005 11:44:25 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Some people here were objecting to the method of implimentation, more so than the underlying idea. |
Actually, I went through this thread, and the original, and only found one person, Ursula, who had any objection at all, which she 'sort-of' retracted. I think gibun was joking.
So this isn't going to materialize because of Setzler's delicate sensibilities....?
Screw that, I'll take over.
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Go thru the thread again. I think you missed one of my posts.
A lot of people are posting saying what a shame that the experiment didn't go thru. However they are overlooking why. An objection was raised and the author of the experiment recognized it as a legitimate one. Instead of a stampede to try to overturn that decision by means of trash talk, and instead of dishing out so much crap about it being cancelled, - how about some positive suggestions on how to make it acceptable to all?
I, for one, would like to hear more from John, and possibly from the selected jurors, about what would have been in store for us if the experiment had gone ahead as planned. Most of us don't know diddly about juried competitions. John's last post helps some but I'd like to know more from people who have experience with them. And I'd like to know what is the thesis of the experiment? What does it propose to prove or disprove? Are there plans to use it as a basis for incorporating some sort of juried, or judged, competition into the dpc regimen on a regular basis? Would the purposes of the experiment be better served if it was done off-site, perhaps at the Fanatics site?
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11/11/2005 11:54:50 AM · #96 |
-
Message edited by author 2005-11-11 12:30:48.
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11/11/2005 12:00:00 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Some people here were objecting to the method of implimentation, more so than the underlying idea. |
Actually, I went through this thread, and the original, and only found one person, Ursula, who had any objection at all, which she 'sort-of' retracted. I think gibun was joking.
So this isn't going to materialize because of Setzler's delicate sensibilities....?
Screw that, I'll take over.
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I did not retract my objection; I stand by it. I am all for the project though.
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11/11/2005 12:00:07 PM · #98 |
Slippy,..., you crack me up! I can't help but sit here laughing at your
expressions!!! They are great! |
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11/11/2005 12:26:52 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Go thru the thread again. I think you missed one of my posts.
I, for one, would like to hear more from John, and possibly from the selected jurors, about what would have been in store for us if the experiment had gone ahead as planned. Most of us don't know diddly about juried competitions. John's last post helps some but I'd like to know more from people who have experience with them. And I'd like to know what is the thesis of the experiment? What does it propose to prove or disprove? Are there plans to use it as a basis for incorporating some sort of juried, or judged, competition into the dpc regimen on a regular basis? Would the purposes of the experiment be better served if it was done off-site, perhaps at the Fanatics site? |
Do you go through such a disertation with your mechanic about the vagaries of the combustion engine every time you get an oil change?
-edited to remove verbal abuse directed at coolhar.
Message edited by author 2005-11-11 12:38:09.
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11/11/2005 12:31:38 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by ursula:
I did not retract my objection; I stand by it. I am all for the project though. |
Are you a politician? They usually sit ON the fence. You are very talented to be able to actually sit on BOTH SIDES of the fence.
(I like your "flip the bird" shot. I think you should make an entire set of emoticons. :-D)
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