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06/17/2003 04:27:04 PM · #26 |
It would still be two. :) (At least for the split level idea, not for the 'long running' one)
Message edited by author 2003-06-17 16:27:25.
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06/17/2003 04:48:25 PM · #27 |
I deleted the whole stupid message ...
Message edited by author 2003-06-17 16:54:57. |
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06/17/2003 04:59:07 PM · #28 |
I must admit that I really dislike the idea of a three level system.
Now I am entering again I love the idea that my (usually crappy) pics have a chance of winning, just a small chance, against entries from some really superb photographers.
I also want votes and comments from more long standing members here and not just from other beginners.
I really don't like the idea of having to enter into a "level".
However I'm all up for adding an additional challenge once a month that is open only to those who have won at least X number of ribbons already. The number X could change as need be in the future to keep the numbers entering reasonably low OR could be stated as open only to those who have won at least X ribbons in the last 12 months.
That would be my preferred solution.
However it seems as though I am in a minority.
I guess I just don't like the idea of segegration!
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06/17/2003 05:03:02 PM · #29 |
i dont think the month long challenges should be only for X number ribbon people.. cuz well, a busy person like me wont be able to enter any challenges then :) i dont have enough time during a week to prepare a "ribbon winner" ..unless i fall on one by chance. But i'm not too busy to submit a pic to a month long challenge. But i'd never be able to do that if i didn't win ribbons in the regular challenges, which i already cant participate enough in :) maybe i'm just unique, but that wouldn't work out for me...
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06/17/2003 05:04:48 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
I must admit that I really dislike the idea of a three level system.
Now I am entering again I love the idea that my (usually crappy) pics have a chance of winning, just a small chance, against entries from some really superb photographers.
I also want votes and comments from more long standing members here and not just from other beginners.
I really don't like the idea of having to enter into a "level".
However I'm all up for adding an additional challenge once a month that is open only to those who have won at least X number of ribbons already. The number X could change as need be in the future to keep the numbers entering reasonably low OR could be stated as open only to those who have won at least X ribbons in the last 12 months.
That would be my preferred solution.
However it seems as though I am in a minority.
I guess I just don't like the idea of segegration! |
Completely agree. I just chickened out a moment ago from trying to write something similar to this post (and deleted it ...). |
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06/17/2003 05:28:10 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Refracted:
thats odd STEINR.. |
Please call me Richard
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06/17/2003 05:38:33 PM · #32 |
My reference to a once a month or more often challenge for X ribbon winners only was not about a month LONG challenge which is entirely different - just a regular weekly challenge but I said month purely as an idea about frequency.
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06/17/2003 05:48:09 PM · #33 |
Can a "beginner" learn better by being primarily exposed to "beginner" quality photographs?
Who has the most discerning eye for a photograph a more "experienced" photographer or the "beginner"?
Who averages voting the highest on a photograph, the "experienced" photographer or the "beginner"?
If an "intermediate" photographer enters the tier system as a "beginner" will their photography eventually begin to reflect "beginner" quality rather than "intermediate" quality?
If a "beginner" photographer enters the tier system as "advanced" will they learn more quickly than "beginners" entering the tier system as "beginners"?
I have been a DPCer for a long time and entered many challenges. Some challenges I have stunk, others I have finished in the middle of the pack, while others I have done fairly well. My overall average is not so great compared to others that have been DPCers a considerably shorter while yet I have photographs that have scored higher than many of these newer members. Would I be classified a "beginner", "intermediate", or "advanced" DPCer?
Finally, would I be able to improve my photography by being a participant of a tiered system?
Bob
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06/17/2003 06:01:56 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by RLS:
Finally, would I be able to improve my photography by being a participant of a tiered system?
Bob |
I think the answer to this is a resounding yes. If you enter the tiered system as a beginner and do what we do now, that is take photos to meet a challenge, you are not changing a thing. However, in the smaller populations you would have a much better chance of scoring better marks and winning a challenge or two. And then after winning a third ribbon, to be promoted, basically by the opinion of your peers, would be a great boost to your ego and creativity.
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06/17/2003 06:09:08 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by rickhd13:
Originally posted by RLS:
Finally, would I be able to improve my photography by being a participant of a tiered system?
Bob |
I think the answer to this is a resounding yes. If you enter the tiered system as a beginner and do what we do now, that is take photos to meet a challenge, you are not changing a thing. However, in the smaller populations you would have a much better chance of scoring better marks and winning a challenge or two. And then after winning a third ribbon, to be promoted, basically by the opinion of your peers, would be a great boost to your ego and creativity. |
If you think of it this way... The exact same photo has a much better chance of winning in the tiered challenge, than in a challenge like now. Instead of placing lower, and getting "here's what's wrong with your shot.." comments. You'll place high and get nice pats on the back. This actually would make learning harder, but scoring easier. |
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06/17/2003 06:10:58 PM · #36 |
are we talking beginner, intermediate and advanced as photographers in general or in terms of the general dpc populace ?
I think I'm intermediate - not many people in the advanced category spring to mind - any suggestions ? |
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06/17/2003 06:13:30 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
The exact same photo has a much better chance of winning in the tiered challenge, than in a challenge like now. Instead of placing lower, and getting "here's what's wrong with your shot.." comments. You'll place high and get nice pats on the back. This actually would make learning harder, but scoring easier. |
For me personally - if I want pats on the back I show my work to my mum.
At DPC I want to learn and I want to compete in an open playing field.
I would rather win once in a blue moon or never in an open field than win once a week against only those it's felt won't strain my standards as much.
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06/17/2003 06:20:32 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by rickhd13:
Originally posted by RLS:
Finally, would I be able to improve my photography by being a participant of a tiered system?
Bob |
I think the answer to this is a resounding yes. If you enter the tiered system as a beginner and do what we do now, that is take photos to meet a challenge, you are not changing a thing. However, in the smaller populations you would have a much better chance of scoring better marks and winning a challenge or two. And then after winning a third ribbon, to be promoted, basically by the opinion of your peers, would be a great boost to your ego and creativity. |
I disagree. I think you'd learn less in a tiered system. I don't see how winning a challenge or two helps learning, or how winning three would boost creativity (ego, probably yes, but then, do you want a bunch of boosted egos?).
Also, scoring better marks because you are in a "beginners" group seems like you're saying that pictures are "good" or "not so good" only as they compare to the competition. I'd like my images to be "good" by themselves, not as compared to the bottom third of the participants. |
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06/17/2003 06:29:06 PM · #39 |
STEINR's first post was the most important to me. John wants to split the challenge because there are too many images and yet, as STEINR points out, John then goes on to divide the challenge that always has less than 150 entries. Doesn't seem to make sense on that level.
As for the idea of elite streaming, that is completely anathema to me. I'd almost certainly quit here if that happened. There are plenty of other good photography sites to spend one's time on if the "elites" want to take over this one and mess with it.
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06/17/2003 06:29:39 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
The exact same photo has a much better chance of winning in the tiered challenge, than in a challenge like now. Instead of placing lower, and getting "here's what's wrong with your shot.." comments. You'll place high and get nice pats on the back. This actually would make learning harder, but scoring easier. |
For me personally - if I want pats on the back I show my work to my mum.
At DPC I want to learn and I want to compete in an open playing field.
I would rather win once in a blue moon or never in an open field than win once a week against only those it's felt won't strain my standards as much. |
That's what I was trying to say. I was showing my NON support for this idea. |
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06/17/2003 06:30:38 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by RLS:
Can a "beginner" learn better by being primarily exposed to "beginner" quality photographs? |
I think this is an excellent point for this discussion, and I strongly feel that the answer is "NO." If you want a purely feel-good approach to the site, and get yourself a ribbon because you beat the "beginner" tier people, that's one thing.
But if you have come to this site to hone your skills and truly improve as a photographer, well... this isn't going to accomplish that.
I enjoy playing tennis when I get the chance. I used to play with a girl who was on the tennis team in high school, and she was infinitly better than I am. But playing with her made me much, much better. Likewise, I can remember playing with my college roommate who was -- to put it as politely as possible -- horrible, my skills deteriorated while I tried to dumb my skills to his level.
Same goes for the approach to this site. |
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06/17/2003 06:32:44 PM · #42 |
| YES!!! to the last three posts |
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06/17/2003 06:38:07 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Originally posted by Kavey:
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
The exact same photo has a much better chance of winning in the tiered challenge, than in a challenge like now. Instead of placing lower, and getting "here's what's wrong with your shot.." comments. You'll place high and get nice pats on the back. This actually would make learning harder, but scoring easier. |
For me personally - if I want pats on the back I show my work to my mum.
At DPC I want to learn and I want to compete in an open playing field.
I would rather win once in a blue moon or never in an open field than win once a week against only those it's felt won't strain my standards as much. |
That's what I was trying to say. I was showing my NON support for this idea. |
Oh! Sorry Heather - I didn't realise! :o)
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06/17/2003 06:39:49 PM · #44 |
everyone seems to imagine themselves going in a "skill level" too low for themselves by their comments.. if a "beginner" just wants to submit pics for the fun of it, and get a few comments, he can go in the beginner tier.. if he wants to challenge himself, he can go in the intermediate skill level.. thats how i feel anyway.. or atleast thats one way of looking at it..
as for "Can a "beginner" learn better by being primarily exposed to "beginner" quality photographs?", only if you only expose yourself to beginner photos.. nothing's stopping you from broswing all three tiers..ok, you cant vote, but you can comment on them and see every last one of them just like now...
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06/17/2003 06:40:50 PM · #45 |
one possible solution is that people entered into whatever level are required to vote on a certain percentage from all the skill levels. That gives everyone the 'benefits' of everyone else and spreads around the 'skill and knowledge' :).
i sort of get the impression that all the people opposed to tiering support the idea that all children should be placed together in a class at the same grade level regardless of age or aptitude :) .. And that this would benefit all the children :).
they probably also think that when they enter sports events, like runs, they should automatically compete against the Olympic class participants, just because "they want to"? That seems reasonable ;).
I could come up with a dozen other analogies, but you get the point: that being that in pretty much every competitive endeavor - so that it's more meaningful, and less messy - people are tiered into skill levels.
Please look up at the upper left corner of your screen .. what does it say? "A Digital Photography SCHOOL?". Um, no :). The key word is "contest".
Learning can be accomplished by viewing other people's pictures, no matter what "skill level" you're at. Even though I submit on DPC, I can look at the photography of experts that arent even on this site and learn. I can, and do, also read! And I go out and take pictures with my camera and get feedback through forums peers and friends :)
Are you using this site for all of your photography learning? That's like trying to make milk into your only food. This is just one website on the entire internet, and it's purpose, as embodied in it's name, is pretty clear overall :) .. There are millions of other resources that would help yuo learn more completely and faster than this site. This is a contest. Like running contests, you TRAIN outside of the actual contest :).
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06/17/2003 06:41:28 PM · #46 |
I have to say I'm struggling to see the point of the tiered system. All it seems to do is two things:
(1) give lower level photographers (like me :-)) a higher chance of a ribbon in their lowbie challenge, by
(2) devaluing that ribbon by removing the higher level competition.
If I stick in the beginner category, produce a stunning shot (ok, unlikely but...) and win a ribbon, what does that tell me? It tells me I was the best beginner class. It doesn't allow me to compete with all the members, just those who classify themselves as beginners.
The cynical side of my head is muttering about it being a scheme to create an 'elite' section where some hope that the perpetual 'relax the rules' argument might be one so they can have the challenges they want. Of course that's just silly, but it does seem that the groups that stand to benefit most are those who would select themselves into the top groups where presumably they would be less cluttered with 'lesser' photos.
At the end of the day I can't really say because (at the moment) I'm only a freebie user, not a member and you're only talking about the member challenges. |
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06/17/2003 06:43:39 PM · #47 |
i would also add this: how does the existence of other skill levels change anything for people?
think about this hypothetical situation: someone codes a secret challenge for "advanced" level. know one else on the site knows about it. the rest of the site keeps going as normal.
Will it hurt the people that don't know that people are participating in a different venue? No, no more than if it were occuring in private or on a different (currently non-existent) web-site. So, bottom line, there's nothing to be afraid of , because it won't affect anyone's experience that much.
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06/17/2003 06:46:25 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
i would also add this: how does the existence of other skill levels change anything for people?
think about this hypothetical situation: someone codes a secret challenge for "advanced" level. know one else on the site knows about it. the rest of the site keeps going as normal.
Will it hurt the people that don't know that people are participating in a different venue? No, no more than if it were occuring in private or on a different (currently non-existent) web-site. So, bottom line, there's nothing to be afraid of , because it won't affect anyone's experience that much. |
This is the best idea i have heard today :) I will be sending out some emails :)
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06/17/2003 06:46:50 PM · #49 |
I think that the thing that seems to be confusing is if you choose to start in the beginner class, you can't stay there forever and win week after week after week. Three ribbons and you move to the next level.
I joined this site to learn and hone my skills and take better photos...and on some challenges I accomplish this and on others I don't do as well as I think I should. But I come back week after week and keep on trying.
That is the key to all this, I think, to keep trying and better myself each challenge.
I don't think this discussion has anything to do with the so called "elites" wanting to take it over or for the so called "bottom third of the participants" to be shunned either.
It's all for fun and all for learning and that's what I get out of it.
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06/17/2003 07:00:58 PM · #50 |
One can do all the learning and all the seeing in a single group, just like now.
If we were to go to elite streaming (beggar the thought!), then I suggest we plan to do it in, say, six months time and only have ribbons counted from this day forward. That way, there could be no thought that the current sponsors are doing it out of self-interest. It would also be a spur to produce better work between now and the shake-out.
Message edited by author 2003-06-17 19:01:52.
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