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06/06/2003 05:36:21 PM · #151 |
OK -- I got pissed yesterday and said I wasn't coming back, but here I am in the fray.
Pag -- right now you could alter the brightness and contrast of an entire image to bring out or reduce the visibility of certain objects and that's perfectly legal for DPC. It's difficult to do without blowing out the entire photo, but it can be done. I've done it.
What we're talking about now is being able to edit a SELECT PORTION of a photo which has been verboten until now.
I vote yes, and here's why: Non-techie people aren't heavy into digital photography. Let's face it, people with a 1MP camera and a Pentium II are pretty much out of the running (for the purposes of this site, anyway) as it is. Let's not pretend we're luddites when we're all running around with $500 cameras and uploading images to expensive computers. At some point in time we've got to evolve. Photography has.
Besides, people are probably doing it now anyway. Sorry, but I'm sure its true. The trick is that you would never notice if people do it correctly. You're totally within your right to vote down a photo that you think has been altered, or if you think a turtle is too blue.
I say we let all hell break loose on the editing front. Stuff that looks non-photographic is going to get burned and those people won't try it again.
Rob
Oh, and Ben, the new turtle was much better. Nothing wrong with saving a crappy photo.
[quote=paganini]Actually i do support dodging and burning, but i am afraid that people will turn photos into digital art :) or pretty close to it. Also, you can dodge or burn unwanted elements in a photograph into the background as well (i.e. hide them) instaad of usingi t as a way to enhance contrast.
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06/06/2003 06:52:41 PM · #152 |
How come whenever I make a comment everyone flees the thread?
*pout* |
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06/06/2003 07:36:46 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by hawkida:
The composition, the choice of image, the sharpness of it, the framing, the moment that was caught. These are plenty of things to be working on and this site is helping me to do that. For me the limits on what we can post-process make a lot of sense - they make the task a challenge even for those who can do wonderful post processing and DCPrints allows them to edit to their heart's content to produce images they consider closer to perfection. This site is about meeting a challenge and improving a subset of the skills necessary to become a proficient digital photographer. I see that others would like it to test more skills but personally I think it would be a pity because it adds so much more to be learnt and disadvantages even further those who already have a long way to go. |
Bravo! Well stated and I agree fully.
Alan |
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06/06/2003 07:40:54 PM · #154 |
has nothing to do with you .. this topic has been the subject of much intense discussion for several days and just naturally ran out of steam. you came in on the end :)
Originally posted by muckpond:
How come whenever I make a comment everyone flees the thread?
*pout* |
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06/06/2003 09:25:08 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
has nothing to do with you .. this topic has been the subject of much intense discussion for several days and just naturally ran out of steam. you came in on the end :)
Originally posted by muckpond:
How come whenever I make a comment everyone flees the thread?
*pout* |
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That'll teach you to run off in a huff! ;-) |
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06/06/2003 09:41:24 PM · #156 |
Hope someone is still keeping track of the vote. Here's mine:
D&B: yes
Hot Pixel Removal: yes
Cloning: yes, PROVIDED it's limited to removing something blatantly annoying from the background, i.e. power lines, offensive branch. Cloning should not be allowed in the main subject area of an image. Thus no cloning/healing brush to remove wrinkles from the model in a portrait, etc. The picture should still maintain its integrity as a photograph.
Realizing that my cloning caveats are somewhat subjective, i suggest therefore that with every challenge the original of a few pictures (not necessarily the winners) be requested for auditing and to keep everybody honest.
Furthermore, for those who like to learn by looking at other photographs, it would be nice (make it mandatory?) if the editing is described in a few words with the submission. In other words, say that you d&b'ed or didn't. |
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06/06/2003 10:55:42 PM · #157 |
| So John, what's the tally!?? Do we get to Dodge &/or Burn in the next challenge! Drew, I think the ya's out-weigh the nay's. :) |
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06/06/2003 11:08:12 PM · #158 |
I like the rules as they are. They force me to take a better photograph in camera and the focus is less on the post-processing. I personally prefer spending more time setting up for a good photograph than using that time to make a good photograph by way of an imaging program.
My vote: no.
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06/06/2003 11:12:07 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
So John, what's the tally!?? Do we get to Dodge &/or Burn in the next challenge! Drew, I think the ya's out-weigh the nay's. :) |
I have asked for a site poll from the administrators... |
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06/06/2003 11:43:48 PM · #160 |
There is going to be a learning curve in learning to use these new tools. That's just part of the process and shouldn't be avoided if you want to master this craft. This learning curve involves over-using the tools so that things look a little fake or even getting a little lazy with your original photo with the intent of fixing things later. But as you progress you gain a better understanding of what looks over-processed and you realize that there really is a difference between capturing the best possible image in-camera and fixing it later. You learn that even when you get your best possible image straight from the camera it may still benefit from judicious editing. This learning curve is natural and I think that it should be encouraged even if the results are a little scary at times. The voters will help tame those scary photos.
T
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06/07/2003 12:05:41 AM · #161 |
IF we decide to change the rules, that is.
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06/07/2003 12:21:17 AM · #162 |
Originally posted by Jak:
IF we decide to change the rules, that is. |
Very true, but it applies to learning the tools anyway, just because you want to learn them.
T
Message edited by author 2003-06-07 00:23:30.
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06/07/2003 12:37:55 AM · #163 |
Originally posted by starblazer:
I like the rules as they are. They force me to take a better photograph in camera and the focus is less on the post-processing. I personally prefer spending more time setting up for a good photograph than using that time to make a good photograph by way of an imaging program.
My vote: no. |
I've already had my say here. Wouldn't want then to count my NO vote twice. I just wanted to say this is exactly how I feel, starblazer. I couldn't have said it better....I tried. Cheers.
Owen
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06/07/2003 12:59:16 AM · #164 |
So here's my second post and a clear vote.
NO.
I voted the original winner in the Home Sweet Home contest very high (I think a 10, but the record is gone) based on my reaction to the image of a well composed, foggy scene. But now I find out it might not have been foggy, it might have been dodging or burning. I feel deceived. I don't know how I would have voted the image had it not been altered to look like fog/mist (if that was the edit). I want to see the range that you were able to capture, not what you can create.
Dennis
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06/07/2003 01:27:51 AM · #165 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
The proposal is that we ask that the dodge/burn tools be added to the acceptable image modification rules.
Question to you: Do you believe this type of modification should or should not be allowed on dpchallenge contest entries? Please feel free to add any explanation to your answer... |
I am for the addition of the dodge/burn tools to be added.
(I am relatively new to DPC and have not been involved in the implementation of DPC site changes. Do the results of this voting process actually have ANY definitive bearing on whether the changes are made? - Is it really our call to make?)
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06/07/2003 02:00:14 AM · #166 |
Originally posted by casualguy:
I am for the addition of the dodge/burn tools to be added.
(I am relatively new to DPC and have not been involved in the implementation of DPC site changes. Do the results of this voting process actually have ANY definitive bearing on whether the changes are made? - Is it really our call to make?) |
This is preliminary in an effort to see what people think and how we might write up any new rule change. Drew and Langdon (the site owners) will decide if they want any new rule changes or not and if they do they might setup an official poll to let the members decide.
T
Message edited by author 2003-06-07 02:01:38.
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06/07/2003 04:38:34 AM · #167 |
I think I've put my finger on what bothers be about D&B... I signed up to this site over the other photography challenge ones because it didn't look too intimidating. I feel that my learning curve has been pretty steep in the short time that I've been here, and has been really helpful. Where I think people are getting heated about this issue is that beginners find it difficult enough mastering the pre-processing aspects of photography that they feel photographers who are comfortable with post-processing have an additional edge that they won't be able to match. The beauty of this site at the moment, is that (with some exceptions) it doesn't seem to be an unattainable goal for most people to score highly at some point in this community. I think a lot of people are scared that D&B will completely take away their chances of doing well because people can now 'cheat', and they won't be able to keep up. If D&B is allowed, I think this would have a bad effect in the long term by putting newbies off joining.
It would be beneficial for existing members to get to understand this process better, and have more experience with it... but my vote at the moment has to be a NO because I think new visitors will be intimidated by it, and because there will be a huge number of existing users who will leave... having had any hope of doing well taken away from them (in their minds!).
Hope this helps!
FWIW, I'm looking forward to using D&B in my photos (not for challenges!) from what I've learned in these forums! |
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06/07/2003 04:53:32 AM · #168 |
| But think..newbies will start learning how to take better pictures along with learning how to dodge and burn at the same time. Both skills will improve along with the members that have been here for some time now. Why just improve one skill when two can be improved at the same time. One skill you improve when you go out and the other improves when you come home. Regardless the winners are still going to be outstanding pictures with D&B or not. |
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06/07/2003 12:11:31 PM · #169 |
bobster, i see your point.. but alot of the current tools we have acces to i hadly use still, or rather, am still learning them.. curves, levels, hue/saturation adjustments, etc.. those are pretty hard to master in themselves..
dodging and burning allows us to take a photo that would be otherwise impossible to take, no matter how good you are at photography. Cameras can only record a certain range of exposures. In certain situations, an area might be blown out, and others underexposed, within the same photo! if you want to get the shadows to be brighter, you'll be overexposing other parts even more,.. or if you want to darken the overexposed areas, the shadows will become black. No amount of levels or curves can usually fix these.. as these are local problems, not something thats wrong with the whole photo. With dodging and burnign, you can even out these natural light contrasts to get a nicely exposed photo. There's no way to do local exposure compensation in-camera.. it's a completly different tool, and allows us to take photos that would not be impossible otherwise.
Also, we've already seen that someone who's won a ribbon isn't necessarily going to be made a super-photographer by the addition of the dodge and burn tools, konador tried D&B out and apparently most of you didn't like what he did.. and thats fine. It was his first attempt afterall. It shows that we'd ALL be starting to learn D&B .. i dont think alot of people, even the winners, have experienced much D&B in their past, as they mostly only submit to this site, and D&B is illegal. We'd all be starting on the same level.
I know when i joined, i scanned through the rules.. i wasn't too intimidated by them, and i certainly didn't think "oh no.. i dont know how to use these tools, people are going to be soo much better than me, i have no chance.. what are levels? what are curves? oh screw it, i wont even try" .. the list of legal tools is quite long already.. i cant seem myself being turned away if i had seen that D&B were legal tools.. New users i dont think would be able to single out D&B in the list of tools as the ONE thing that made them turn away, they have no way of knowing that it was recently added (unless they joined in the past few weeks.. but i'm talking for future new users here..). In fact, D&B makes more sense as a photography tool as hue ajdustments by far.. you can't even DO that with film (i dont think?).
Anyway, all this to say that i dont think all hell will turn loose if D&B is added.. current users will have to start learning to use it properly.. and new users will just see it as a regular tool that they can use.. I'm sure there's going to be a few people out there that are going to be intimidated that they have to learn to use it.. but remember that EVERYONE will have to learn to use it.. you're not alone.. Sure there are going to be a few out there who know how to use it, but i dont think thats necessaily going to make them win all the ribbons while we're learning to use D&B.. it's not a "make photo perfect" button. I'd be glad to have the oppertunity to use this tool, as i have never really used it, and it seems to me like a pretty legitimate photography tool to ask for.
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06/07/2003 12:19:37 PM · #170 |
| It's not even something you MUST learn to use. You can still do what you do now :) |
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06/07/2003 12:30:04 PM · #171 |
right :) it's not even something you'll need to use on *every* photo, just like i dont need to change any hues on most of my photos.. or even touche the curves.. or add noise, or sharpen.. These are all tools you use *when* you need them..
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06/07/2003 12:42:28 PM · #172 |
The same argument then can and will be made for freeing up ALL filters and tools.
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06/07/2003 12:44:15 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by Jak:
The same argument then can and will be made for freeing up ALL filters and tools. |
I disagree. No one here wants to make this a digital art site. That has been pointed out countless times during this week's discussion.
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06/07/2003 12:44:43 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by Jak:
The same argument then can and will be made for freeing up ALL filters and tools. |
Indeed it can, but other tools come with their own arguments too.
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06/07/2003 12:46:43 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by Jak:
The same argument then can and will be made for freeing up ALL filters and tools. |
It could be but we are not asking for anything but dodge and burn. |
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