Bush, USA, Iraq, Hurricane... - DPChallenge Forums

09/05/2005 12:14:22 PM · #204

Originally posted by gingerbaker:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Nothing more to show those who refuse to see. :(

Right you are. But there are still some who view these threads who do NOT "refuse to see" as you do. Perhaps they are not "blinded" by their hatred for the President. It is for their benefit that I respond to your posts, lest they be misled by undisputed liberal rants that are designed to beguile them with unsubstantiated accusations, innuendo, and political propaganda. For example, do you have any evidence at all, like links to articles by reputable journalists or video ( reputable or not ) that can substantiate your charge that Bush played golf at any time between 8/27 and now? If so, please share it with those who "refuse to see". If not, then we must assume that it is just more misleading rhetoric designed to sway the emotions of those who you are trying to "convince" that Bush is the devil.

OK, Mr big pants:

//www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0829bushvisit-online.html

and here is a simulacrum of images:

//thinkprogress.org/2005/08/30/as-katrina-struck-bush-vacationed/

So, are your blinders coming off yet?

No, I'm afraid it NOT OK. I never maintained that he wasn't AT a resort at which GOLF is PLAYED. But YOU said that he PLAYED GOLF. Neither of the links you provided either SAY that he PLAYED golf or SHOW him PLAYING golf. Care to try again?

Who's wearing blinders?

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/05/2005 12:40:13 PM · #205

Originally posted by gingerbaker:

Originally posted by RonB:
It's just another government money machine that is rife with opportunity for fraud, just like Medicare.

Ah, the siren call of the neocon. A government program that actually helps needy people is ALWAYS just "another government money machine", despite the fact that Medicare operates at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance.

Of course, to the neocon, any program or tax cut that helps BUSINESS is always shrewd investment, right?

Sorry, gingerbaker, I'm just now getting around to bust this liberal bubble.

A couple of excerpts from an article in the Washington Post ( ref: here

Researchers at Dartmouth Medical School, who have been studying Medicare's performance for three decades, estimate that as much as $1 of every $3 is wasted on unnecessary or inappropriate care. Other analysts put the figure as high as 40 percent.

In 2003, the most recent year for which data were available, HealthPartners outperformed every Medicare HMO in the Miami area, Medicare quality data show. Still, over the average lifetime of a Medicare patient, the federal program will pay Miami's HMOs about $50,000 more per patient.

You call THAT operating "at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance"? I don't.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

09/05/2005 12:44:38 PM · #206

Originally posted by RonB:

Researchers at Dartmouth Medical School, who have been studying Medicare's performance for three decades, estimate that as much as $1 of every $3 is wasted on unnecessary or inappropriate care. Other analysts put the figure as high as 40 percent.

I suppose that if you reclassify poor people as being inappropriate for care, or an unnecessary waste...

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/05/2005 12:51:33 PM · #207

It doesn't really matter whether he was playing golf or talking to another stage-managed audience. What matters is that he wasn't where he should have been, doing what properly he should have been doing. I just read a NY Times article that mentioned the White House now has a "spin" team in place (headed by Karl Rove, of course) to manage the damage caused by Bush's inappropriate behavior and the feds' initial lack of response to Katrina... not surprising since "spin" is what they're good at, and because without it Bush couldn't utter one word without being laughed out of office. I've never seen a bigger bunch of corrupt fools than our Back-Slapper-in-Chief has managed to bring together. God have mercy on us.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/05/2005 12:52:10 PM · #208

Originally posted by RonB:

I think that whether he actually played golf or merely spent a couple of days holidaying at the luxury golf club, might just be a little irrelevant.

I was appalled to learn that it took a week for the US Army to arrive in force. Even Bush admitted that the response was too slow (though I am sure that he will go on a finger pointing exercise that will not involve any kind of reflective surface).

Dim7

Canon EOS R

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

09/05/2005 01:13:30 PM · #209

LOL!
Even Bush admitted that the response was too slow (though I am sure that he will go on a finger pointing exercise that will not involve any kind of reflective surface). [/quote]

Message edited by author 2005-09-05 13:16:44.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

09/05/2005 01:15:21 PM · #210

You have to realize that for Bush and company this type of operation is a completely new one. Saving lives is not their forte, but rather death and destruction is. It sounds more like a "theater of operation" now, where that theater is an invasion and occupation of the NOLA/Louisiana/Mississipi region with 40,000+ national guard and countless miliatry personnel coming into the region. Doesn't sound like a search and rescue operation to me.

With national guardsmen/women coming from all over the country is the rest of the country vulnerable should another disaster strike somewhere else? Two days prior to the storm hitting land Bush had declared a national emergency, as had the Louisiana governor, and then Mayor of NO. This state of emergency, not unlike martial law, was not used for saving lives, but for allowing a situation to get out of control.

I am hearing stories of how FEMA has been turning away trucks loaded with water from WAlmart and that FEMA prevented the Coast Guard from delivering 1000 gallons of fuel. Over 60 countries offered aid in many forms, but President Bush refused all offers of help. WhY?

Dim7

Canon EOS R

09/05/2005 01:22:59 PM · #211

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

This is really distressing! Just how arrogant can a President be?Shouldn't saving the lives of his people be a priority over selfish pride?

09/05/2005 01:25:23 PM · #212

It's heartening to see that birds of a feather flock together, so that some of gingerbakers buddies jump to his defence ( unsuccessfully, of course ) when he is unable to do so himself.

It is also not unanticipated that in doing so they, as liberals often do, quickly attempt to divert attention away from the topic at hand and refocus it on something, really anything, that could cast Bush in a bad light. We find now, for example, that it doesn't REALLY matter whether or not gingerbaker lied. What REALLY matters NOW is WHERE Bush was - it no longer matters what he was doing there, only that he was there.
Oh, and not that it matters, but he was in Arizona discussing MEDICARE, you know, that "government program that actually helps needy PEOPLE"

Message edited by author 2005-09-05 13:29:42.

09/05/2005 01:26:40 PM · #213

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by gingerbaker:

Originally posted by RonB:
It's just another government money machine that is rife with opportunity for fraud, just like Medicare.

Ah, the siren call of the neocon. A government program that actually helps needy people is ALWAYS just "another government money machine", despite the fact that Medicare operates at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance.

Of course, to the neocon, any program or tax cut that helps BUSINESS is always shrewd investment, right?

Sorry, gingerbaker, I'm just now getting around to bust this liberal bubble.

A couple of excerpts from an article in the Washington Post ( ref: here

Researchers at Dartmouth Medical School, who have been studying Medicare's performance for three decades, estimate that as much as $1 of every $3 is wasted on unnecessary or inappropriate care. Other analysts put the figure as high as 40 percent.

In 2003, the most recent year for which data were available, HealthPartners outperformed every Medicare HMO in the Miami area, Medicare quality data show. Still, over the average lifetime of a Medicare patient, the federal program will pay Miami's HMOs about $50,000 more per patient.

You call THAT operating "at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance"? I don't.

If you read the entire article you posted then you would see that when Medicare officials tried to crack down on poor hospital performance you would have seen that they feared massive legal appeals on the part of PRIVATE hospitals who have the resources to battle it out in the courts. It probably saves Medicare money by just paying out the costs of medicine, even if that medicine is of poor quality (Poor quality provided by a private hospital!). There are other institutions and agencies that should be cracking down on poor patient care, not just Medicare.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

09/05/2005 01:31:38 PM · #214

Originally posted by RonB:

Ron, I would say that YOU are the master of diversion.

Dim7

Canon EOS R

09/05/2005 01:32:33 PM · #215

Regardless of political persuasion Ron, our hearts go out to all the people affected!
Neil

Originally posted by RonB:

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/05/2005 01:37:45 PM · #216

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by gingerbaker:

Originally posted by RonB:
It's just another government money machine that is rife with opportunity for fraud, just like Medicare.

Ah, the siren call of the neocon. A government program that actually helps needy people is ALWAYS just "another government money machine", despite the fact that Medicare operates at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance.

Of course, to the neocon, any program or tax cut that helps BUSINESS is always shrewd investment, right?

Sorry, gingerbaker, I'm just now getting around to bust this liberal bubble.

A couple of excerpts from an article in the Washington Post ( ref: here

Researchers at Dartmouth Medical School, who have been studying Medicare's performance for three decades, estimate that as much as $1 of every $3 is wasted on unnecessary or inappropriate care. Other analysts put the figure as high as 40 percent.

In 2003, the most recent year for which data were available, HealthPartners outperformed every Medicare HMO in the Miami area, Medicare quality data show. Still, over the average lifetime of a Medicare patient, the federal program will pay Miami's HMOs about $50,000 more per patient.

You call THAT operating "at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance"? I don't.

If you read the entire article you posted then you would see that when Medicare officials tried to crack down on poor hospital performance you would have seen that they feared massive legal appeals on the part of PRIVATE hospitals who have the resources to battle it out in the courts. It probably saves Medicare money by just paying out the costs of medicine, even if that medicine is of poor quality (Poor quality provided by a private hospital!). There are other institutions and agencies that should be cracking down on poor patient care, not just Medicare.

Olyuzi, FYI, I read all THREE installments of the article, as I hope you did.
AND, if you look at my original post, once again, you will see that you are actually supporting my original statements. In support of my charges, you are, indeed, implying that fraud is being prepetrated by private hospitals, among others.
So, how is it again that I was wrong?

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

09/05/2005 01:39:44 PM · #217

Originally posted by RonB:

Oh, and not that it matters, but he was in Arizona discussing MEDICARE, you know, that "government program that actually helps needy PEOPLE"

"Discussing" Medicare? Don't you mean arguing for its defunding?

09/05/2005 01:45:59 PM · #218

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by RonB:
It's heartening to see that birds of a feather flock together, so that some of gingerbakers buddies jump to his defence ( unsuccessfully, of course ) when he is unable to do so himself.

It is also not unanticipated that in doing so they, as liberals often do, quickly attempt to divert attention away from the topic at hand and refocus it on something, really anything, that could cast Bush in a bad light. We find now, for example, that it doesn't REALLY matter whether or not gingerbaker lied. What REALLY matters NOW is WHERE Bush was - it no longer matters what he was doing there, only that he was there.
Oh, and not that it matters, but he was in Arizona discussing MEDICARE, you know, that "government program that actually helps needy PEOPLE"

Ron, I would say that YOU are the master of diversion.

I only ask that posters clearly differentiate opinion/rhetoric and factual information. I don't try to divert anything. I'm just holding folks accountable when they post charges in a way that imply that those charges are based on factual information, when they are not. Something that most liberals can't stand.
You know very well, Olyuzi, that I hold myself to those same standards. If I state something in a way that implies that is based on factual information, I either provide it, or retract my statements.

09/05/2005 01:58:32 PM · #219

Originally posted by Dim7:

Regardless of political persuasion Ron, our hearts go out to all the people affected!
Neil

In that, we are in total agreement. And for many, it's not only hearts, but pocketbooks, and even the shelter of their own homes - as it should be.
Although it may be extremely difficult to consider at present, this disaster may prove to be a blessing to many ( certainly not all ) who, forced to "start over", will find themselves living a better life as a result. My understanding is that many are being re-located to places as far away as Michegan and Massachusetts. Perhaps the housing and employment climates in their new locations will enable them to establish new "roots" and prosper there. The State motto of Connecticut is "Qui Transtulit Sustinet" which means ( at least in one translation ) "He who transplanted, still sustains us". It gives me comfort to believe that that is true.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

09/05/2005 02:06:38 PM · #220

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Originally posted by RonB:
Oh, and not that it matters, but he was in Arizona discussing MEDICARE, you know, that "government program that actually helps needy PEOPLE"

"Discussing" Medicare? Don't you mean arguing for its defunding?

No, that's not what I meant at all. Is there a specific statement that the President made in Arizona that would lead you to make that innuendo laden statement? Or is THAT statement, like those of gingerbaker, just more rhetoric designed to beguile those who are easily misled by such?

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

09/05/2005 02:11:23 PM · #221

Originally posted by legalbeagle:

I think that whether he actually played golf or merely spent a couple of days holidaying at the luxury golf club, might just be a little irrelevant.

To repeat, he was in Arizona for two whole hours and gave a speach while here. A round of golf takes about 3 hours.

And Pueblo El Mirage RV & Golf Resort is not really a resort. It is a retirement communtiy, most of which is nothing more then a trailer park along side a golf course. I assure you that there are much better places in the Phoenix area if one were coming here for "luxury" vacationing.

You might want to watch where you get you info from because it appears they are trying to make the trip look like something it was not.

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

09/05/2005 02:14:37 PM · #222

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by gingerbaker:

Originally posted by RonB:
It's just another government money machine that is rife with opportunity for fraud, just like Medicare.

Ah, the siren call of the neocon. A government program that actually helps needy people is ALWAYS just "another government money machine", despite the fact that Medicare operates at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance.

Of course, to the neocon, any program or tax cut that helps BUSINESS is always shrewd investment, right?

Sorry, gingerbaker, I'm just now getting around to bust this liberal bubble.

A couple of excerpts from an article in the Washington Post ( ref: here

Researchers at Dartmouth Medical School, who have been studying Medicare's performance for three decades, estimate that as much as $1 of every $3 is wasted on unnecessary or inappropriate care. Other analysts put the figure as high as 40 percent.

In 2003, the most recent year for which data were available, HealthPartners outperformed every Medicare HMO in the Miami area, Medicare quality data show. Still, over the average lifetime of a Medicare patient, the federal program will pay Miami's HMOs about $50,000 more per patient.

You call THAT operating "at about 7 times the efficiency of private insurance"? I don't.

If you read the entire article you posted then you would see that when Medicare officials tried to crack down on poor hospital performance you would have seen that they feared massive legal appeals on the part of PRIVATE hospitals who have the resources to battle it out in the courts. It probably saves Medicare money by just paying out the costs of medicine, even if that medicine is of poor quality (Poor quality provided by a private hospital!). There are other institutions and agencies that should be cracking down on poor patient care, not just Medicare.

Olyuzi, FYI, I read all THREE installments of the article, as I hope you did.
AND, if you look at my original post, once again, you will see that you are actually supporting my original statements. In support of my charges, you are, indeed, implying that fraud is being prepetrated by private hospitals, among others.
So, how is it again that I was wrong?

I think you tried to show how inefficient Medicare is, (and I agree with you to some extent that they are), but the article shows that they are paying for some bad medicine because they fear legal reprisal (sp?) which would cost a great amount of money for this government institution to fight in the courts and would probably be better spent on providing for the elderly in medical ways, than battling it out legally. That should be left for other government agencies to do.

How is it that a government institution is getting blamed for the poor performance of a private health care provider? Are they not the ones responsible for inefficiency and poor patient care?

And if you want to look at fraud in the medical industry just look at the Bush administration's Medicare card program and you will see that: "All told, the 73 companies selected gave President Bush and conservatives in Congress more than $5 million since 2000. Of those 73 companies approved by the administration, 20 (almost one third) have been involved in fraud charges. Those 20 companies made more than 60% of the total contributions to Bush and conservatives by drug card companies, calling into question whether the administration overlooked those companies' records because of their financial ties to the Bush Campaign."
From this article

So if you want to look at facts, these are some to ponder.

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

09/05/2005 02:17:59 PM · #223

Originally posted by RonB:

You know very well, Olyuzi, that I hold myself to those same standards. If I state something in a way that implies that is based on factual information, I either provide it, or retract my statements.

I don't like this "fact or retract", black and white argumentative style.

1 Ginger: Bush was playing golf

2 RonB: You are lying - provide some evidence

3 Ginger: He was at a luxury golf resort

4 RonB: retract your statement, as Bush was not playing golf and you were wrong.

The last part to me is confusing. Surely RonB's reasonable response should have been "your initial statement was misleading about the nature of GWB's trip to a golf club. I accept that he was not in the front line of disaster reponse, and he was not being "seen to act" to the disaster. However, he was at a resort speaking on the subject of Medicare, not just "playing golf"." To which I think that Ginger's reasonable response would possibly be to acknowledge the correction.

Ginger's point: GWB was not where he should have been and did not react fast enough.

RonB's point: GWB was not simply idly whiling away his time as his detractors have suggested.

Both can be expressed in reasonable terms. That is, unless there is some evidence that GWB squeezed in a round...

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

09/05/2005 02:35:49 PM · #224

Starting your point with non factual information exagerating your point kind of ruins your argument. He did not play golf. He was not vacationing. He was not living the high life. It was not a "resort" as you might be led to believe. It's basically an old folks home with a golf course. We have a ton of them here in the Phoenix area.

Basically, Bush stuck to his schedule, and you feel he should have been in his office doing something else. If that is your point, state it as such.
Playing golf and vacationing at a luxury resort is much different then the facts, which really was giving a speach on medicare to old people at a retirement home. Check your source of info because they are lying to you to make you believe things are worse then they are. If you want to hate Bush that is fine, but your arguement will be much more effective when you rely on facts.