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10/08/2002 05:05:25 PM · #101 |
damn, my ears were burning again... :)
But seriously, so many people complaining about not getting comments (good/bad/controversial?) on their photos, and meanwhile ONE photo is getting so much attention...what gives?
Last week I offered $5 to the 20th person to comment on my photo...this week I am offering $10 (Canadian, that is) :-) |
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10/08/2002 06:12:49 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by paganini:
[OT] this is somewhat out of topic, but since you asked....
Uhhh, no :) my first violin was a 1/4 sized violin and it's pretty small. I went from 1/4 to 1/2 to 3/4 to full size and after that went through 2-3 violins...
My son Isaac has expressed some interest in playing violin already...what's the least I can expect to pay for something tough but decent so we can evaluate if he's really interested?
Remember that what WE call "classial" music was more or less the folk music of its day...certainly a lot of respected composers have used folk music themes as the basis for some beautiful music. I think it has to do with the style in which it's played which determines whether you "like" a piece, while its intrinsic musical qualities affect whether you "appreciate" it.* Somewhat analogous to how I evaluate images...
*Example for USA residents: Star Spangled Banner
Compare versions by an orchestra, an organist, Jimi Hendrix, or Roseanne Barr... |
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10/08/2002 06:26:07 PM · #103 |
check out Shar Music, they usually have decent deals. Or you can try your local music store and they might even let you RENT one, which mnight be the best thing if he's not using a fullsize violin.
I'd say you can get a beginner's kit for about $200 or so. The bow sucks and the violin sucks too but if he's a beginner it won't make a difference. Then if he gets better later on, you can always sell it and buy a better one.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by paganini:
[i][OT] this is somewhat out of topic, but since you asked....
Uhhh, no :) my first violin was a 1/4 sized violin and it's pretty small. I went from 1/4 to 1/2 to 3/4 to full size and after that went through 2-3 violins...
My son Isaac has expressed some interest in playing violin already...what's the least I can expect to pay for something tough but decent so we can evaluate if he's really interested?
Remember that what WE call "classial" music was more or less the folk music of its day...certainly a lot of respected composers have used folk music themes as the basis for some beautiful music. I think it has to do with the style in which it's played which determines whether you "like" a piece, while its intrinsic musical qualities affect whether you "appreciate" it.* Somewhat analogous to how I evaluate images...
*Example for USA residents: Star Spangled Banner
Compare versions by an orchestra, an organist, Jimi Hendrix, or Roseanne Barr...[/i]
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10/08/2002 06:27:00 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by zadore:
damn, my ears were burning again... :)
But seriously, so many people complaining about not getting comments (good/bad/controversial?) on their photos, and meanwhile ONE photo is getting so much attention...what gives?
Last week I offered $5 to the 20th person to comment on my photo...this week I am offering $10 (Canadian, that is) :-)
<grin> Um, Zadore. . . maybe it's not the people, maybe it's the photo. . . </grin>
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10/08/2002 06:49:19 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by paganini:
check out Shar Music, they usually have decent deals. Or you can try your local music store and they might even let you RENT one, which mnight be the best thing if he's not using a fullsize violin.
I'd say you can get a beginner's kit for about $200 or so. The bow sucks and the violin sucks too but if he's a beginner it won't make a difference. Then if he gets better later on, you can always sell it and buy a better one.
Good info -- thanks. I also have a friend who's son has played from early youth I can check with...My mom's sister (Isaac's great-aunt) was a child prodigy and played into her 20's, so I hope the talent is hereditary! |
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10/08/2002 08:56:54 PM · #106 |
Zadore did not say cause a controversy, but I did. Things that "stir a reaction" are usually controversial. This photograph certainly is (although I wonder if everyone has seen it). Art from it's earliest origins has been to pay homage to culture icons (ferility gods, biblical figures, animals that provided food) This was the point I was hoping would be discussed, not the semantics of how I phrased my earlier post.
Originally posted by JohnSetzler :
Originally posted by Zeissman:
[i]Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
[i]Originally posted by zadore:
[i]
What is the purpose of art if not to stir a reaction, and make the viewer react, think, or feel something? In that respect, I think this entry was tremendously successful, regardless of how it scores.
I wonder where this idea originated? In my art history classes, it seemed the reason art originated was to create/display cultural icons. The original purpose that I saw, was to celebrate things of importance in life, not to cause controversy.
[/i]
Zadore did not mention controversy... he said 'stir a reaction'... that's not necessarily a controversial reaction :)
[/i]
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10/08/2002 09:32:35 PM · #107 |
Cool. Music like arts should be started as young as possible before the brain gets "fixed" :) You know, commercialization of music, etc. I learned piano for 2-3 years before i decided to learn the violin, despite my parents objections, they finally give in. Just didn't like piano but it gave me the musical education that compelled me to want to learn violin.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by paganini:
[i]check out Shar Music, they usually have decent deals. Or you can try your local music store and they might even let you RENT one, which mnight be the best thing if he's not using a fullsize violin.
I'd say you can get a beginner's kit for about $200 or so. The bow sucks and the violin sucks too but if he's a beginner it won't make a difference. Then if he gets better later on, you can always sell it and buy a better one.
Good info -- thanks. I also have a friend who's son has played from early youth I can check with...My mom's sister (Isaac's great-aunt) was a child prodigy and played into her 20's, so I hope the talent is hereditary![/i]
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10/08/2002 09:56:11 PM · #108 |
I really never got the impression that anyone actually wanted to dq/censor the photo in question....there didn't seem to be any heated passion against the image. A few voiced their 'pinions in a non-confrontational way.
What I take issue with are several biased statements that are fostering hatred and stereotyping.
Here are some examples:
1- "I have been on the receiving end of that from many good "Christian" boys when I was in high school/junior high, but it really doesn't bother me because I know who I am"
My response is why are you singling out christians? Because a few boys you say were "good" hurt you somehow? I got hurt by other kids too...I won't tell you what race or religion they were...I wouldn't want to propagate ignorant prejudice, racial or other.
2-"Christians can't stand people making fun of them. :) They always cry wolf."
All Christians do this? This is the message you carry? Is this a fair representation of Christians? If anyone said that same slanderous generality about blacks or Muslims, or an ethnic group, or homosexuals, they'd be condemned. Personally, as a christian, I don't make fun of ANYONE! I was taught better manners than that.
3-"Usually it's the Christians that automatically cry wolf (they're picking on us!) and then started to talk about how obscene the photographs could get."
This is another generality propagating false statements, promoting religious profiling.
4-" have people coming to my door at 8 am in the morning telling me that i was going to hell unless i join their church. NOw that's in your face annoying."
Funny...not ONE christian has ever come to my door telling me I was going to hell if I didn't join their church. I've lived in the city and country from coast to coast, and north country and south Florida. NOT ONCE!!!! Might you be exaggerating to gain sympathy? I have had a non christian religious people knock on my door to tell me their point of view.
5-"And, from many of the messages here calling for censorship, i am firmly convinced more than ever that Christians, the conservative ones, are basically intolerant of anything else but their religion, similar to other fundamentalist out there. Maybe it's tradition, maybe you're acting out from the great tradition of the church of burning a scientist at the stake for proclaiming that Earth is not the center of universe and forced Copernicus to recant his beliefs. Maybe it's tradition that you follow with the Inquisition, the burning of protestants in England, which by the way is why this country was FOUNDED and that's why the Bill of Rights has the freedom of speech."
Excuse me sir but you are the only one here demonstrating intolerance. Of course I forgive you, but you'd be more credible, and your opinions less combative, if you'd avoid pointing fingers at the people you don't like or understand. I haven't read anyone here trying to convert you. And if you count the statements, there are more statements against christians than there are proposing censorship.
6-And to all of you who thinks that our Founding fathers are 'Christian' in today's definition, think again. Thomas Jefferson actually wrote a version of the Bible in which he took out all the GARBAGES (since we're talkinga bout garbage photos...) from Paul, etc. and only containing the source of the enlightened being, namely, Jesus Christ, and ignored all of his worthless followers. Is he a Christian? Not by your definition, but as far as i can tell, people like him who seek the truth instead of blinding believing in Corinthian I &II, are the true Christians. And you guys who think you are who believes in your little sects like the Southern Baptists, would nevertheless feel threatened and feel insulted, because deep inside you KNOW it's true and you just can't believe it is and your ego gets offended."
This statement sounds very judgemental to me. Who are you to assume YOU KNOW what a Southern Baptist, or anyone else feels and can or can't believe. How haughty of you! Come down from your high horse and start looking at individuals for who they are. Don't judge all by your narrow perspective. That is purely as hypocrytical as those you criticize.
7-"If you're not offended, then let's move on and let's not talk about censorship. I don't bitch and moan when one of you put up a photo about church or religion."
There's been more moaning and complaining by you than any other individual...and it's been about christians and your opinion of them more than the issue of censorship.
8-"However, I have problems with his followers, starting with Paul :) This is why there are so much contradiction in the Bible"
Right there you openly admit you have a problem with followers of Christ and you criticize the Bible. YOu do it again in the following statement.
9-Let me make it clear: I have absolutely no problems with Jesus Christ. I think he's a very moral man. However, I have problems with his followers, starting with Paul :) This is why there are so much contradiction in the Bible (Stone your children when they misbehave, Deuteronomy -- i mean, if you follow every word in the bible, you're a fanatic at the least. On one hand you have the old testament which is a Hateful God, on the other hand you have Jesus Christ who is the opposite, then there is Paul who decided to put down all sort of rules that are contradictory to what Jesus taught. Geez, make up your mind!). If there is a God and that person is Christ, the only thing that mattered is how he lives his life on earth. For some reason none of the churches teaches that, they all concentrate on the BS from Paul in Corinthians I & II."
You are striving to convince the public, on a public PHOTOGRAPHY site that the Bible is bs and the believers in the Bible are are inferior to YOUR way of thinking, and then you turn it around and gripe that the christians are doing this???? Makes no sense to me...(Scratching my head in wonder) So very condescending sir! Your bigotry is evident, still there is tolerance toward you. In fact...lol...I'm praying for your hurts to be healed right now! :-))
10- But from what i have seen, they tend to be on this "I am on this higher moral ground" and they fall pretty hard when there are scandals, as recent events in Boston have proven, what was it, 100+ children molested?
11-And no, i am not angry at Christians. I just don't agree with what they believe in, that's all. The funny thing is, whenever I say I don't agree with Christians, they are OFFENDED (well, as evident in this thread, that's for sure) and wanted to know why I have offended them :)"
Perhaps it is your arrogance that offends more than your beliefs. You demand that people listen to your rants in a public forum, way off topic, and when someone disagrees or takes issue you justify your intolerance by pointing to some teenagers to blame for your bitterness, and judge all christians.
I truly hope you'll consider other people before you eagerly spout off again. All is forgiven, but just think...always consider the weakest who may be bruised. Is that really what you want to do here? I don't think so.
As for the image in question...no problem!
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10/08/2002 10:18:09 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by Milton:
While I understand you have the right to insult peoples religion. I don?t think this is the place. And I will vote accordingly. I don?t think I can give a zero.
What the heck are you talking about? IMNSHO, if photograph arouses emotion, it get's a plus in my mind. Not every photo has to be a happyhappyprettypretty. Anger, disgust, lust, even rage are just as valid emotions as joy, happyness and others.
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10/08/2002 11:07:57 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by jonr:
Originally posted by Milton:
[i]While I understand you have the right to insult peoples religion. I don?t think this is the place. And I will vote accordingly. I don?t think I can give a zero.
What the heck are you talking about? IMNSHO, if photograph arouses emotion, it get's a plus in my mind. Not every photo has to be a happyhappyprettypretty. Anger, disgust, lust, even rage are just as valid emotions as joy, happyness and others.[/i]
That's the beauty of this site... You can give it extra points, someone else can take points away... Everyone gets their way :) |
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10/08/2002 11:38:33 PM · #111 |
See Zeissman and Milton's "cry" for censorship in earlier post. Obviously you don't read the post.
And yes, there were people coming to my doors and asking me "Are you aware of the presence of Satan in Lawrence?" (this was during university days) at 8 am from one of the cult churches, Church of God or some other baptist type churches. So I said to them "yeah, that's me, the anti-christ, now, f--k off" and close the door. They are on my property uninvited at 8 am. SEVERAL times in the year too, from various different Christian organizations (your average Jehova Witness, to Church of Christ, Church of God, etc.)
I wasn't ranting. I am just telling the people who wanted censorship to look at themselves and not get offended. And if you read my post and get offended, you have only yourself to blame.
I'll end it here, arguing with Christians is like arguing with a 4 year old child. Asking them to face scientific facts rather than emotions and they choose emotions. They try to censor art whereever they see. Anything that they don't agree with they try to censor (all you ahve to do is watch the Christian Coalition speaker on political issues). The church really hasn't changed much since the Copernicus days, except now they really can't murder people and burn them at the stake any longer, so if you disagree with them, they call you indecent, immoral, etc. Then they try to tell you that they are simply "Welcoming you because we love you and we are Christians".
Also, now I am getting annoyed because you're accusing me of being a racist for not tolerating your religious views. Excuse me, being born in another race versus CHOOSING a religion is not exactly the same thing. It's your choice to pick a religion, and if others don't like your religion or don't respect it, it's stil YOUR CHOICE. There is a reason why ther eis religious freedom in the first amendment. Thomas Payne, Thomas Jefferson, and other members of the Age of Enlightenment who chose DEITY instead of Christianity made sure that the freedom is there and that even though Christians are the "majority" in the country, they can't sholve their religious views on everyone using the government.
Originally posted by Gracious:
I really never got the impression that anyone actually wanted to dq/censor the photo in question....there didn't seem to be any heated passion against the image. A few voiced their 'pinions in a non-confrontational way.
What I take issue with are several biased statements that are fostering hatred and stereotyping.
Here are some examples:
1- "I have been on the receiving end of that from many good "Christian" boys when I was in high school/junior high, but it really doesn't bother me because I know who I am"
My response is why are you singling out christians? Because a few boys you say were "good" hurt you somehow? I got hurt by other kids too...I won't tell you what race or religion they were...I wouldn't want to propagate ignorant prejudice, racial or other.
2-"Christians can't stand people making fun of them. :) They always cry wolf."
All Christians do this? This is the message you carry? Is this a fair representation of Christians? If anyone said that same slanderous generality about blacks or Muslims, or an ethnic group, or homosexuals, they'd be condemned. Personally, as a christian, I don't make fun of ANYONE! I was taught better manners than that.
3-"Usually it's the Christians that automatically cry wolf (they're picking on us!) and then started to talk about how obscene the photographs could get."
This is another generality propagating false statements, promoting religious profiling.
4-" have people coming to my door at 8 am in the morning telling me that i was going to hell unless i join their church. NOw that's in your face annoying."
Funny...not ONE christian has ever come to my door telling me I was going to hell if I didn't join their church. I've lived in the city and country from coast to coast, and north country and south Florida. NOT ONCE!!!! Might you be exaggerating to gain sympathy? I have had a non christian religious people knock on my door to tell me their point of view.
5-"And, from many of the messages here calling for censorship, i am firmly convinced more than ever that Christians, the conservative ones, are basically intolerant of anything else but their religion, similar to other fundamentalist out there. Maybe it's tradition, maybe you're acting out from the great tradition of the church of burning a scientist at the stake for proclaiming that Earth is not the center of universe and forced Copernicus to recant his beliefs. Maybe it's tradition that you follow with the Inquisition, the burning of protestants in England, which by the way is why this country was FOUNDED and that's why the Bill of Rights has the freedom of speech."
Excuse me sir but you are the only one here demonstrating intolerance. Of course I forgive you, but you'd be more credible, and your opinions less combative, if you'd avoid pointing fingers at the people you don't like or understand. I haven't read anyone here trying to convert you. And if you count the statements, there are more statements against christians than there are proposing censorship.
6-And to all of you who thinks that our Founding fathers are 'Christian' in today's definition, think again. Thomas Jefferson actually wrote a version of the Bible in which he took out all the GARBAGES (since we're talkinga bout garbage photos...) from Paul, etc. and only containing the source of the enlightened being, namely, Jesus Christ, and ignored all of his worthless followers. Is he a Christian? Not by your definition, but as far as i can tell, people like him who seek the truth instead of blinding believing in Corinthian I &II, are the true Christians. And you guys who think you are who believes in your little sects like the Southern Baptists, would nevertheless feel threatened and feel insulted, because deep inside you KNOW it's true and you just can't believe it is and your ego gets offended."
This statement sounds very judgemental to me. Who are you to assume YOU KNOW what a Southern Baptist, or anyone else feels and can or can't believe. How haughty of you! Come down from your high horse and start looking at individuals for who they are. Don't judge all by your narrow perspective. That is purely as hypocrytical as those you criticize.
7-"If you're not offended, then let's move on and let's not talk about censorship. I don't bitch and moan when one of you put up a photo about church or religion."
There's been more moaning and complaining by you than any other individual...and it's been about christians and your opinion of them more than the issue of censorship.
8-"However, I have problems with his followers, starting with Paul :) This is why there are so much contradiction in the Bible"
Right there you openly admit you have a problem with followers of Christ and you criticize the Bible. YOu do it again in the following statement.
9-Let me make it clear: I have absolutely no problems with Jesus Christ. I think he's a very moral man. However, I have problems with his followers, starting with Paul :) This is why there are so much contradiction in the Bible (Stone your children when they misbehave, Deuteronomy -- i mean, if you follow every word in the bible, you're a fanatic at the least. On one hand you have the old testament which is a Hateful God, on the other hand you have Jesus Christ who is the opposite, then there is Paul who decided to put down all sort of rules that are contradictory to what Jesus taught. Geez, make up your mind!). If there is a God and that person is Christ, the only thing that mattered is how he lives his life on earth. For some reason none of the churches teaches that, they all concentrate on the BS from Paul in Corinthians I & II."
You are striving to convince the public, on a public PHOTOGRAPHY site that the Bible is bs and the believers in the Bible are are inferior to YOUR way of thinking, and then you turn it around and gripe that the christians are doing this???? Makes no sense to me...(Scratching my head in wonder) So very condescending sir! Your bigotry is evident, still there is tolerance toward you. In fact...lol...I'm praying for your hurts to be healed right now! :-))
10- But from what i have seen, they tend to be on this "I am on this higher moral ground" and they fall pretty hard when there are scandals, as recent events in Boston have proven, what was it, 100+ children molested?
11-And no, i am not angry at Christians. I just don't agree with what they believe in, that's all. The funny thing is, whenever I say I don't agree with Christians, they are OFFENDED (well, as evident in this thread, that's for sure) and wanted to know why I have offended them :)"
Perhaps it is your arrogance that offends more than your beliefs. You demand that people listen to your rants in a public forum, way off topic, and when someone disagrees or takes issue you justify your intolerance by pointing to some teenagers to blame for your bitterness, and judge all christians.
I truly hope you'll consider other people before you eagerly spout off again. All is forgiven, but just think...always consider the weakest who may be bruised. Is that really what you want to do here? I don't think so.
As for the image in question...no problem!
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10/08/2002 11:48:12 PM · #112 |
Is it just me or did Paganini just prove the point Gracious made?
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10/08/2002 11:52:00 PM · #113 |
We really oughta bring that burn 'em at the stake thing back. hehehe
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10/08/2002 11:52:13 PM · #114 |
It's just you :)
What was her point???? I read through the post, and all she did was tell me how accepting she is of people that aren't Christians and attacked my views. That's ok, i don't get offended when people don't agree with me. I will never call for censorship of a Christian propaganda photo :-) In fact, I have a painting of JUST THAT from a Mormon (gasp) friend of mine in my living room. Gee, I must be really intolerant of Christians if I have friends who are, eh? I just don't like Southern Baptists and other strict interpretationists i guess!!!
Originally posted by myqyl:
Is it just me or did Paganini just prove the point Gracious made?
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10/08/2002 11:56:16 PM · #115 |
paganini,
What was my "cry" for censorship? If I think a photo is violating the rules of the site, I should ask that it be DQ'd. If I think a photo were illegally edited, would I be "crying" that it be DQ'd?
You have a very sorry state of mind. You feel that anyone positively displaying their own beliefs affects you negatively. I pity you.
My point was simple, hate filled posts would not be allowed in a forum, why would they be allowed as photograph? To stop either is censorship. But so what, the admins have a right to censor this site. It is their site, and they have a right to let it express what they want to express. This is a digital photography challenge site, not a controversial art site. I sent you a PM to try to discuss this, but you choose to air personal bias in the forums instead. It is your choice, and you are showing your own close mindedness. |
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10/08/2002 11:58:09 PM · #116 |
It was him, he is obviously a bigot, with an ax to grind.
Originally posted by myqyl:
Is it just me or did Paganini just prove the point Gracious made?
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10/09/2002 12:02:33 AM · #117 |
Can everyone retreat to neutral corners for a standing 8 count? The forums are not for personal attacks and this has stopped being funny. I suggest we all re-read the entire thread before posting again... That should give us a couple of days to cool off :)
I think we've all come up with opinions of each other and many of those opinions are less then flattering. Let's just all agree to think everyone but us is a facist and get on with our lives :)
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10/09/2002 12:05:04 AM · #118 |
Lol. All I wrote was I disagree with your call for DQed or for "CENSORSHIP" based on purely the content which is not obscene and simply because YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE.
If we're going to do that, then ask people on here who are tired of looking at teddy bear photos or flower photos and let's DQ them too. let's just censor everything that makes any one of us uncomfortable.
Once you started calling for censorship, that's enough for me. i will stand passionately on what i believe in. And if all you can come up with is calling me a bigot, then I have proven my point.
Originally posted by Zeissman:
paganini,
What was my "cry" for censorship? If I think a photo is violating the rules of the site, I should ask that it be DQ'd. If I think a photo were illegally edited, would I be "crying" that it be DQ'd?
You have a very sorry state of mind. You feel that anyone positively displaying their own beliefs affects you negatively. I pity you.
My point was simple, hate filled posts would not be allowed in a forum, why would they be allowed as photograph? To stop either is censorship. But so what, the admins have a right to censor this site. It is their site, and they have a right to let it express what they want to express. This is a digital photography challenge site, not a controversial art site. I sent you a PM to try to discuss this, but you choose to air personal bias in the forums instead. It is your choice, and you are showing your own close mindedness.
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10/09/2002 12:10:51 AM · #119 |
Yeah, i am sure i just love being called a racist because i disagree with their religion :)
I will not respond any longer, if the other Christians want to keep calling me a racist or bigots, well i guess for each challenge i'll have to create an image that truly offend them :) They won't be obscene, but they will prove the message. Priest and His Little Boy, coming up..... (I'll just call the photo, Christian Brotherly LOVE, as a lust submission)
Originally posted by myqyl:
Can everyone retreat to neutral corners for a standing 8 count? The forums are not for personal attacks and this has stopped being funny. I suggest we all re-read the entire thread before posting again... That should give us a couple of days to cool off :)
I think we've all come up with opinions of each other and many of those opinions are less then flattering. Let's just all agree to think everyone but us is a facist and get on with our lives :)
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10/09/2002 12:10:58 AM · #120 |
THREE warnings. This thread is being locked. Users who continue to personally attack other users in the future will be suspended from the forums. That's not what these are for. Period.
Drew |
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