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09/24/2005 03:08:32 PM · #26 |
I am a professional photographer and I am closing my studio next week after nearly six years on the High street,which is also a tourist attraction supplying themed photography.I cannot compete against amateurs who buy a digital camera and work from home at weekends whilst being in a full time job. Nor can I compete with the digital technology which is destroying my industry by being available to so many at home.(Even if they can't use it properly).
I have £16000.00 per year running costs on my studio alone and cannot afford to do a £1000.00 wedding for £100.00 and be in attendance all day and cover my costs.
I have had customers say to me all year why are you closing and when I tell them I can\'t afford to continue, they then have the nerve to say that they loved my work so much that when they got home they had copies made or scanned 10 copies on their home computer.
How sad that customers who have supported me over the years are now killing me off by stealing the wages from my business.
Sadder still that they ignore the copyright sticker on all my photos and don't see that they are stealing my work, breaking the law and putting another professional studio out of business and will bloody moan when they cannot get our photography style any more.
I have 6 million pounds liability insurance,to cover any photographic mishaps - should I ever have one! To make sure my customers are protected.
The guy doing this as extra income does not have this cover and no professional standing with a professional body.
Well people your going to get what you paid for either CRAP or VERY EXPENSIVE PROFESSIONAL STUDIOS (I believe it will be the first choice CRAP)
A very sad and disappointed Photographer |
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09/24/2005 04:47:17 PM · #27 |
I can't see the logic in saying that, "now that everyone and his dog can afford a high end digital camera and be a 'weekend warrior', the professional photographer is going to be out of a job... booo hooo"
I don't agree with that AT ALL.
How long have professional cameras (35mm film) been available TO EVERYONE. a LONG time.... so nothing really has changed. There was TONS of enthuisastic weekend warriors out there before when there was film (perhaps more) and there are tons now with digital.
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09/24/2005 05:07:16 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by leaf:
I can't see the logic in saying that, "now that everyone and his dog can afford a high end digital camera and be a 'weekend warrior', the professional photographer is going to be out of a job... booo hooo"
I don't agree with that AT ALL.
How long have professional cameras (35mm film) been available TO EVERYONE. a LONG time.... so nothing really has changed. There was TONS of enthuisastic weekend warriors out there before when there was film (perhaps more) and there are tons now with digital. |
I have to agree with you on this, but you don't account for:
1) it seems that MANY more people are making the jump to DSLR from point and shoot cameras than people ever did when only SLR cameras were available.
2) the learning curve to produce high quality images with saleable value is much shorter with digital than it ever was with film. This alone means that there are way more competent photographers on the market than before.
These two elements have an impact on people who ply the waters as professional photographers.
Message edited by author 2005-09-24 17:07:57.
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09/24/2005 05:10:53 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by rgo:
Video could kill off stills, at least when it comes to photojournalism, within the next ten years.
The decisive moment is obsolete once you can take high quality video. Shoot a sequence, freeze frame, capture it, print it. The few photojournalists I happen to know are shooting bursts most of the time. For them, the decisive moment is already a non issue. Most expect to be moving to digital video once the quality gets high enough.
I think there will always be those who stick to the still camera, but many, if not most professionals might opt for the coming change. |
Video technology is moving ahead in leaps and bounds and it only stands to reason that we will have high res and quality stills from video soon or a hybrid DSLR camera capable of shooting high resolution short burst of video for stills.
This a very interesting report on the growth of digital cameras in Eastern Europe, have look at the DSLR market 264% increase !!
adobe profits
If I was a pro I would be very active in keeping up with technology and adapting my business to the "new world order" in photography. Many will fall but the best will remain. |
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09/24/2005 05:33:18 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by strangeghost:
The film processing industry is obviously shrinking, but he says even with all these P&S types shooting digital, nobody is making prints, so those photographic print-dependent industries are dying as well. |
As far as I know, this is totally incorrect. I have friends at several of the local 1 hour film processing labs. They each say that their business is great because of digital. The print as many or more digital images than film, and the total volume of images printed is increasing every year.
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09/24/2005 06:01:18 PM · #31 |
it's probably tougher times, but I think things will even out in a bit, digital is still a fairly new craze, with people being enamored that they can get such a quick return on their images...10 years from now I think some of those weekend warriors may have fallen to the wayside.
Did professional photography start to suffer a certain fate when 35 mm was introduced back in the 30's or 50's or whenever it was, and then you didn't need to carry a speed graphic around? This was probably about a big as an advancement from 35mm to digital in my opinion.I'm not sure if it suffered for awhile or not, but I know that professional photography is still here.
I'm considering on making this my living someday, and as is with everything I think it's 90% perspiration. Talented or not, there are plenty of pros out there who make a living, cuz they have worked hard towards it. Of course sh*t can always happen even to the most talented, but I think it's just a wave of new technology, and a lot of tech geeks love new stuff! When digital isn't such a phenomenon anymore, I think things will level out a bit. There will always be a need for professional imagery, and if you make great images, and find people with money...I think you'd be fine.
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09/24/2005 06:02:59 PM · #32 |
As another weekend warrior (Like may of us on this site...) my 2c would be to say that the good pros will remain in business, the ones who produced OK work will not.
Even though the quality tools are now available to more people, it dosn't mean that we're seeing more quality results.
Most of my customers for portrait & commission work this year have had their own high quality digitals, but because they are not skilled at the photography part of the equation they are taking $1000 snapshots, and want someone with a little more skill to push the buttons. Just owning the buttons does not the photographer make.
Some of the talent on this site, like Joey Lawrence for example just tell us that. His images from a 1.3Mpx P&S camera put most of my 8.2Mpx dSLR shots to shame by a long shot. And even at the higher end of gear on this site there is a big gulf in skill. Heida does things with her 10D most of us would dream of doing. People with the skill will always be able to make a living.
People with the skill, if they decide to be pros, will always make it in one way or another.
For a skilled photographer, the changes in tools and technology wash by like a plesantly scented breeze. For the professional hack the breeze is one of change, and it's a hard pill to swallow if you're entrenched in your ways.
Just my 2c worth, as always.
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09/24/2005 06:27:47 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by strangeghost:
Nobody except Canon is really making any money, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, etc. are all in trouble and may be going belly-up soon. |
Strange statement that. For anyone who's bothered to look, Nikon have announced record profits this last quarter. They may, of course, be fudging the books. Or they may not.
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09/24/2005 07:12:36 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by joezl:
Originally posted by strangeghost:
Nobody except Canon is really making any money, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, etc. are all in trouble and may be going belly-up soon. |
Strange statement that. For anyone who's bothered to look, Nikon have announced record profits this last quarter. They may, of course, be fudging the books. Or they may not. |
yea, Nikon's been healthy as of late. |
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09/24/2005 08:38:00 PM · #35 |
I have only read half of whats been said in this thread and all I have to offer is a little something I heard on a podcast I get from Lens Work the Publisher Brook Jensen said,
"When you buy a camera you become a photographer, but when you buy a piano you become a piano owner."
He went on to say that he found an "Art Kit" but when he thought about it, how does one become an artist from an art kit? Do they know anything about sensitivity, visualizing, tones. or is it someone who just picks up a paint brush and instantly becomes a painter.
I don't sure maybe our slice of the pie is getting little bit smaller and we do need to evolve but its all up to us in order to distinguish between a piano owner and a piano player. We need to make sure that we step up the professional quality and show people why they need to spend the extra 1000 dollars for a wedding.
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09/24/2005 09:25:32 PM · #36 |
Yup, I also have a good friend who has been doing Wedding Photography only for over 25 years. A couple of years ago he swithced from mediaum and large format film to digital and liked it as did his clients......But this last year he just decided to retire, too easy for people like us to go get a 20D and start doing semi-pro wedding and give it away. Indeed there are still many pro's out there that make several thousand per wedding but it's getting to be all about marketing and return business.
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09/24/2005 09:55:34 PM · #37 |
I find it strange that lots of pros are giving up their jobs. Most pros I know are making a lot of money (still), and I've never heard anyone complain about getting work. And none of the labs I know have had to close down. They still do the same work, but digital.
As for wedding photography, most people seem to want a photographer to do the job, not just anyone with a camera. Actually I can contradict myself since I shot a wedding today, but I've never heard of anyone (else) letting a relative/friend do a wedding shoot without having a real photographer doing the 'real' shots.
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09/24/2005 10:37:11 PM · #38 |
Hmm... Exchange "a lot of money" with "money" in my previous post. I just realized that I phrased it wrongerer than I meant to. That's what happens when english is not a first language, but drunken muttering is :-)
EDIT: Yes, I meant "wrongerer". Not a misspelling, just making fun of my own inglish scills. (Two more intentionals for you)
Message edited by author 2005-09-24 22:39:25.
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09/24/2005 10:42:28 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by bellyup:
Well people your going to get what you paid for either CRAP or VERY EXPENSIVE PROFESSIONAL STUDIOS (I believe it will be the first choice CRAP)
A very sad and disappointed Photographer |
You mean to tell me that just because you're a "pro" photographer, you can produce better results than a weekend warrior...just because you're a "pro"? That's being a little closed-minded in my opinion.
Hey...I look at it this way...If you're good at what you do, you will continue to thrive. Those who were just in it to make some money will have to come up with a new profession...or GOD FORBID go out and get a job!!!
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09/25/2005 05:36:15 AM · #40 |
Weekend warriors The term confirms it's true worth and status:
Week end = Should be spelt (WEAK END)
As your amature status will be your weakness and your END should you wish to open a studio and put your money were your mouth is.Instead of playing (WARRIORS) another term for TOY SOLDIERS who only get brought out to play at spare moments before you get bored with them and forget about them.
WHEN YOU PLAY AT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW THE RULES OR YOU'LL NEVER BEAT THE BEST.
There are some truly great amatuer photographers out there.THE POINT IS:
They will not make a living from their passion or run a Studio on profit if JOE PUBLIC STEALS THEIR WORK OR PAYS PEANUTS TO MONKEYS |
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09/25/2005 05:58:04 AM · #41 |
I am sorry you are bitter. Life is tough.
I suggest you get the book "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson.
Good luck.
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09/25/2005 07:03:23 AM · #42 |
I support bellyup and feel for him and all of the passing profesional parade. I have been directing or buying images all my working life.
However, I don't beliee all is lost. Because someone has the tools does not mean that they will make great photographs and put the 'industry' out of business. Just look at the bulk of challenge submissions to see why. 80-90% of challenge submissions would never have a chance of being taken seriously in the commercial world.
Bad, focus, composition and subject no where near the "brief" are legion in the challenges. We have "My Dark & Light Cat", "My Cats Perspective", Bubbles the Cat", "A Portrait of Cat", "The Cat branch of our Family", "Cat playing int he shoes", "Cats love Dairy", "The Nude Cat" etc etc ... you get the idea.
Yes, times are changing and it may be for the better of the professional photographer - in the long run. There is a novelty right now with digital. There will be a time of complete madness in pricing, shoddy business practice, inconsistent results, con men, terrible pictures at high prices, bad image quality and all round poor business practice. It won't take the commercial world very long at all to get sick and tired of this. The business world has always come back to needing good reliable work, high quality and professional standards.
Having said all of that ... we have to consider if the professional photographer may have bought this upon themselves. Before you howl in outrage read
"Photography is not a profession - it is a craft!"
This is a thought-provoking article very germaine to this thread.
Message edited by author 2005-09-25 07:04:14. |
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09/25/2005 10:03:21 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by bellyup:
Weekend warriors The term confirms it's true worth and status:
Week end = Should be spelt (WEAK END)
As your amature status will be your weakness and your END should you wish to open a studio and put your money were your mouth is.Instead of playing (WARRIORS) another term for TOY SOLDIERS who only get brought out to play at spare moments before you get bored with them and forget about them.
WHEN YOU PLAY AT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD KNOW THE RULES OR YOU'LL NEVER BEAT THE BEST.
There are some truly great amatuer photographers out there.THE POINT IS:
They will not make a living from their passion or run a Studio on profit if JOE PUBLIC STEALS THEIR WORK OR PAYS PEANUTS TO MONKEYS |
You registerd on here just to post that?
Sucks to be you. You can leave now.
JM |
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09/25/2005 10:45:21 AM · #44 |
Jmosher. A little harsh don't you think?
Bellyup has a point, and he feels very strongly about it. Is that wrong?
He is complaining because his livelihood is gone - his shop is closed. The reason is that the business that he offered was no longer viewed as important to people who said it was. That is a bitter pill to swallow. If bitterness is in the stomach, it tends to come back out the mouth (er fingers?).
Just because someone's opinion is strong doesn't mean he doesn't have a right to say it. Bellyup is a professional photographer. This thread is about professional photographers.
He has chosen to register to a site that supports and nurtures amateur photographers (and a few pro's who admittedly don't need as much support and nurturing as guys like me). I can only assume he has done this because he feels it is a worthy pastime for himself and perhaps worthy to contribute to the art in general.
How can I say that? Well, for one, he's taking the time to read and comment in the forums, not just post pictures.
On the other hand, we have to be careful ESPECIALLY in this modern age that we don't confuse knowledge and training with skill and ability.
Someone mentioned the artist kit. Does picking up a brush make a person an artist? Actually yeah. Think of our modern definitions of masters of art. Many of these are self-taught. On the other hand, does going to university or expensive schools make people artists? No, it makes a person competent technically. The art comes from the person within.
People like Bellyup and all the other pro's on this site are usually not just the sum of their parts. They are usually a combination of photographic eye and processing ability as well as good "bedside manner" to get what is needed from a subject.
One person told me that every amateur gets lucky and snaps some really great shots. A professional is one who knows how it was gotten and how to do it again.
That being said, if you take a lot of pictures, you can get a lot of pictures. Odds are there will be some good ones. Hire a professional and he will by odds take less pictures and give you more good ones.
As to bellyup's future, I really can't say. I was a window washer back in Canada. I found I could make pretty durn good money by developing business routes in certain areas. If I worked hard at it of course. Five bucks for a window job sounds like crap. Washing a lot of windows works out to 20-30 bucks an hour. That's not too bad. Different context, could the principles be applied? That's up to each one to find out. |
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09/25/2005 12:43:24 PM · #45 |
Thanyou escheler,
It is nice to hear from someone who has read my original comment and understand why I am so angry with Customers and alleged photographers with no experience.(Having just bought a camera and think they can take photographs by advertising their (professional services???)
I Have over 450,000 archived photographs in my collection over 30 years.
I have worked hard to gain my skills and become qualified and know that people have to start somewhere.
My work is purely portraiture of people,pets and wild life and I understand how important and skillful people who do other work like landscapes are. It is an art in it's self. However a landscape does not throw a paddy and refuse to be photographed nor does it take the photograph away and scan copies to give its surrounding landscapes! Nor does it have a self conciousness about its self and not like the image that the camera captures.Yes you are correct an experienced photographer is able to use his experience and skills to get the shot but even he cannot stop like playwrights the plagerism of his work.
My arguement on the death of professional photography lies mainly with the companies who continually scan other peoples work ignoring copyright law( I refuse constantly to reproduce other photographers photographs from customers who think that because they have it in their possesion that they own the copyright).
I use both film and digital equipment and have seen my business grow until the last couple of years due to the attitudes discussed.
It would be nice if someone invented an ink or paper that was scanner proof that blacked out & destroyed the original hard copy if scanned.
I am sure that many photographers of all skill levels would then benefit
and grow into competent and commercially viable studio owners.
I have heard from the B.I.P.P. the same thing for years you should charge more for your work do you not think your work and skills are worth it?
Yes I do think it's wort more but unfortunately it will only sell at that price if people in your catchment area can afford it and living where I am. I rely heavily on the tourists rather than locals.
I have tried to contribute to the original forum rather than just use the forum as an advert for my work.
I wish all people who truly care about photography a succesful future but fear the worst unless someone does like the music industry and takes action against these thefts to protect the future of us all |
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09/25/2005 01:02:01 PM · #46 |
i gonna be one of those pig headed "can't be bothered to read the whole forum" people becausee the snipnets i have read are a little dark/hostile and if i read deatils and take a side the thread will be shut down because it always is when i do that.
So just my opinion. Pro photography is NOT dying. Its thriving. If youre a good photographer. With an excellent sence of business.
A lot of amatures are better at making the kind of images people want to buy than pros are. Those amatures ultimately become the pros with thriving businesses.
I have a close friend that regisitered a business liscence for her out-of-home studio in march - it is now stepetmeber and her business is so strong that she has had to hire a 2nd photographer to cover extra work, and is moving her family into a new house, because her studio business have become so extensive that she needs (and can afford to) have an entire house dedicated to what started as a 2 room project.
Why? 1. shes not taking cheesey boring photos that most pro studios take thus there is demand for her work
2. She has a business plan, a good one, and she sticks to it.
Do you think Dr Kelloggs said breakfast ceral is dead when General Mills came on the market? No, he said it is time to step up marketing, promote my product and make sure my product is up to par with others on the market. |
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09/25/2005 02:22:45 PM · #47 |
Bellyup's original post does make light of what I consider the most important factor in this whole discussion.
Digital technology cheapens the photographic industry as a whole, and this is true of both quality and quantity. People want CHEAP first, and quality takes a dim backseat to the cheapness. Lets face it, for a lot of people cheap=good enough. (You gotta love those Wal-Mart photo studios) As for quantity... well, I have a scanner and a printer, don't you? |
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09/25/2005 02:29:59 PM · #48 |
There's a shopping centre I sometimes go to that used to have a booth selling very reasonably priced "lifestyle" prints, with beautifully framed exceptional quality large prints. I never saw any customers at the booth.
The other day there was a new photo booth (maybe the same people, I dunno) selling cheesy shots of kids green-screened and put with frogs and cutesy junk. difference - there was a long queue at this new booth!
And the moral of this story is...........
[Ed spelling]
Message edited by author 2005-09-25 14:35:08. |
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09/25/2005 02:44:02 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by runger:
maybe our slice of the pie is getting little bit smaller and we do need to evolve but its all up to us in order to distinguish between a piano owner and a piano player. We need to make sure that we step up the professional quality and show people why they need to spend the extra 1000 dollars for a wedding. |
Never was a truer word spoken.
It seems to me this is a transitional period. Some customers will end up being perfectly happy to shoot their own wedding with their or their friends' digitals, some will try it and be disappointed and will advise their friends to get professional help, others will pay quite a bit of money to hire a 'professional' photographer and still be delivered rubbish. Each to his own. When things shake out, there is likely always to be a market for excellence - but customers' demands and expectations are now likely to go up considerably - and rightly so in my view.
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09/25/2005 02:48:34 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by mcmurma:
Digital technology cheapens the photographic industry as a whole, and this is true of both quality and quantity. People want CHEAP first, and quality takes a dim backseat to the cheapness. Lets face it, for a lot of people cheap=good enough. (You gotta love those Wal-Mart photo studios) As for quantity... well, I have a scanner and a printer, don't you? |
The cynic in me takes another view at time. The levelling of the playing field by making proper equiment affordable to the general public has basically exposed those professional photographers who made a living just by having equipment not available to most people. Their talent was lukewarm at best. Now that everybody has access to the equipment it becomes apparent that everybody has a brother-in-law with just as much talent who is willing to do it for free.
Those photographers who have skill and ability above the norm will still make it. Their talent will still shine in the digital age... |
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