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 04/24/2005 03:37:26 PM · #26
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
"Not very well thought out" and "I personally don't like the idea" are not the same thing.

-Terry

If I had meant to say "I personally don't like the idea", I would have said "I personally don't like the idea".

What I meant to say was that I think the idea behind this invitational, like the first masters, was not very well thought out before it was posted for the community to see. Specifically the part about giving a week and a half for those not qualified to hurry up and get in. In additional to generating comments of dubious quality and motivation, that part also, in a way, devalues the efforts (and the approach to the site) of all the people who were already qualified without the extra incentive of this invitational.

Another part of it I think was not well though out in advance is the burden on SC/admins of having to make subjective judgements (that can lead to misunderstandings, arguements, and hard feelings) regarding which comments are valid and which are "spam" comments. From this thread I think they would be treading on troubled ground to disallow comments as spam merely because they are one word, or very short; or in less than perfect English, or even not in English. Why did you all set yourselves up for this? Wouldn't it have been smarter to just cut off eligibility at those currently qualified?
 04/24/2005 03:42:08 PM · #27
Originally posted by coolhar:
What I meant to say was that I think the idea behind this invitational, like the first masters, was not very well thought out before it was posted for the community to see. Specifically the part about giving a week and a half for those not qualified to hurry up and get in. In additional to generating comments of dubious quality and motivation, that part also, in a way, devalues the efforts (and the approach to the site) of all the people who were already qualified without the extra incentive of this invitational.


I suggested an invitational challenge sorta like this in some other thread a while back, and when I did I suggested that the only comments that should count are those that are marked as helpful. I think that would maintain the spirit of the comments and make the SCs job easier...
 04/24/2005 03:47:29 PM · #28
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
unless you are inspired to do so by the image. Don't do it just so you can make a quota to get in an invitational challenge.


In the early days of DPC, for quite some time you made it a point to comment on every entry in every challenge. You also recommended that to me as an exercise, because it would help me to see differently.

Surely some of our current members could benefit similarly from this exercise?

-Terry
 04/24/2005 03:47:44 PM · #29
Originally posted by kearock:
I suggested an invitational challenge sorta like this in some other thread a while back, and when I did I suggested that the only comments that should count are those that are marked as helpful. I think that would maintain the spirit of the comments and make the SCs job easier...

Unfortunately I think you would find a lot of "Useful" ticks going missing all of a sudden :-/

I don't stand a chance of qualifying for this, although I would be a lot closer if all the "nice shot" comments were wiped off my entries. Quality (I hope) not quantity from me I'm afraid.

Oh well, It's just another challenge I probably wouldn't find time to enter anyway : )
Edit: Just don't make it a "Ducks" challenge or I'll scream :P

Message edited by author 2005-04-24 15:56:15.
 04/24/2005 04:00:38 PM · #30
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
"Not very well thought out" and "I personally don't like the idea" are not the same thing.

-Terry

If I had meant to say "I personally don't like the idea", I would have said "I personally don't like the idea".

What I meant to say was that I think the idea behind this invitational, like the first masters, was not very well thought out before it was posted for the community to see. Specifically the part about giving a week and a half for those not qualified to hurry up and get in. In additional to generating comments of dubious quality and motivation, that part also, in a way, devalues the efforts (and the approach to the site) of all the people who were already qualified without the extra incentive of this invitational.

Another part of it I think was not well though out in advance is the burden on SC/admins of having to make subjective judgements (that can lead to misunderstandings, arguements, and hard feelings) regarding which comments are valid and which are "spam" comments. From this thread I think they would be treading on troubled ground to disallow comments as spam merely because they are one word, or very short; or in less than perfect English, or even not in English. Why did you all set yourselves up for this? Wouldn't it have been smarter to just cut off eligibility at those currently qualified?


I'd like to clarify a couple comments in your post. You said "Specifically the part about giving a week and a half for those not qualified to hurry up and get in." Actually, The announcement was posted on the 24th, that the challenge would start on the 29th, which is really only 5 days, not even a week. (Including the submission times, though, I see your point)
Second you said "Why did you all set yourselves up for this?" To clarify that, most of the site council found about this challenge after it was already planned and only hours before the public announcement. I'm not even sure if most of the SC even KNEW about it before it was publicly announced.
I like the idea of this challenge. And not just cause I qualify (I probably wont get to enter anyway). I have confidence that the annoucement covers the penalties for cut and pasting one/two word comments and further confidence that we will make the right decisions regarding this issue.
On a side note, I don't think that it would work if only 'useful' comments were counted since a LOT of comments were made before the 'useful' button was put into place, and most people never went back to check old comments.

Message edited by author 2005-04-24 16:03:08.
 04/24/2005 04:18:38 PM · #31
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
unless you are inspired to do so by the image. Don't do it just so you can make a quota to get in an invitational challenge.


I think a thread like this (although justified) may only serve to make those who are already self-conscious about their commenting ability to withdraw and be even more so.
 04/24/2005 04:20:51 PM · #32
Originally posted by casualguy:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
unless you are inspired to do so by the image. Don't do it just so you can make a quota to get in an invitational challenge.


I think a thread like this (although justified) may only serve to make those who are already self-conscious about their commenting ability to withdraw and be even more so.


Doesn't make me want to withdraw from commenting. I think he is right, don't comment to just meet a quota, comment because the photo inspired you to do so.
 04/24/2005 04:28:19 PM · #33
Originally posted by casualguy:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
unless you are inspired to do so by the image. Don't do it just so you can make a quota to get in an invitational challenge.


I think a thread like this (although justified) may only serve to make those who are already self-conscious about their commenting ability to withdraw and be even more so.


Agreed.

I was going to try and make the quota but i think i`ll give it a miss.
I`m not the greatest commenter as it is, but any comments from me this week will probally laughed at.
 04/24/2005 04:29:37 PM · #34
Originally posted by marbo:
Originally posted by casualguy:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
unless you are inspired to do so by the image. Don't do it just so you can make a quota to get in an invitational challenge.


I think a thread like this (although justified) may only serve to make those who are already self-conscious about their commenting ability to withdraw and be even more so.


Agreed.

I was going to try and make the quota but i think i`ll give it a miss.
I`m not the greatest commenter as it is, but any comments from me this week will probally laughed at.


Comment away. But comment truthfully.
 04/24/2005 04:34:21 PM · #35
Originally posted by rex:
Originally posted by casualguy:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
unless you are inspired to do so by the image. Don't do it just so you can make a quota to get in an invitational challenge.


I think a thread like this (although justified) may only serve to make those who are already self-conscious about their commenting ability to withdraw and be even more so.


Doesn't make me want to withdraw from commenting. I think he is right, don't comment to just meet a quota, comment because the photo inspired you to do so.


When I first joined DPC I did not feel qualified to make any genuine critiques of a photo, thus comments were more of the "nice shot, like the the color" ilk. Now those kind of comments (by the sound of it) even though inspired to some degree, will probably be considered quota driven, no?
 04/24/2005 04:36:35 PM · #36
Comment away. But comment truthfully.

I do. I don`t think i could catch up now as i have 3 challenge entries that are getting more comments quicker than i can give them out :)
I don`t mind keep them coming.
 04/24/2005 04:40:27 PM · #37
My two cents:

I think people make WAY TOO MUCH of the comments. Take what you want from them - they are FREE - in other words, nobody is getting paid to make them and most of the people here (myself included) would not even be considered to be "qualified" to provide advice, critiques, or comments about many of the technicalities of photography - so what?? Take it all with a grain of salt, consider the source, be appreciative of anyone who took the time to comment, learn from the ones you find useful, smile and be proud of the ones that say "Wow!" or any other such comment, since it indicates you did evoke some emotion from them - that's a positive thing, even if it was a negative emotion like "Ewww!" :)

Regarding the SC and / or admins thinking something through to avoid conflicts or raging debates in the forums, the ONLY solution to that is to lock down the forums or do away with them, 'cause after six months here, I can already tell there is nothing announced that doesn't create some element of controversy.

X Poster found his own comment helpful.
 04/24/2005 04:40:43 PM · #38
drama ... didn't see that coming
 04/24/2005 04:41:56 PM · #39
Originally posted by kpriest:
My two cents:

I think people make WAY TOO MUCH of the comments. Take what you want from them - they are FREE - in other words, nobody is getting paid to make them and most of the people here (myself included) would not even be considered to be "qualified" to provide advice, critiques, or comments about many of the technicalities of photography - so what?? Take it all with a grain of salt, consider the source, be appreciative of anyone who took the time to comment, learn from the ones you find useful, smile and be proud of the ones that say "Wow!" or any other such comment, since it indicates you did evoke some emotion from them - that's a positive thing, even if it was a negative emotion like "Ewww!" :)

Regarding the SC and / or admins thinking something through to avoid conflicts or raging debates in the forums, the ONLY solution to that is to lock down the forums or do away with them, 'cause after six months here, I can already tell there is nothing announced that doesn't create some element of controversy.

X Poster found his own comment helpful.


X Poster found his comment helpful.
 04/24/2005 05:46:42 PM · #40
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
I'd like to clarify a couple comments in your post. You said "Specifically the part about giving a week and a half for those not qualified to hurry up and get in." Actually, The announcement was posted on the 24th, that the challenge would start on the 29th, which is really only 5 days, not even a week. (Including the submission times, though, I see your point)
Second you said "Why did you all set yourselves up for this?" To clarify that, most of the site council found about this challenge after it was already planned and only hours before the public announcement. I'm not even sure if most of the SC even KNEW about it before it was publicly announced.
I like the idea of this challenge. And not just cause I qualify (I probably wont get to enter anyway). I have confidence that the annoucement covers the penalties for cut and pasting one/two word comments and further confidence that we will make the right decisions regarding this issue.
On a side note, I don't think that it would work if only 'useful' comments were counted since a LOT of comments were made before the 'useful' button was put into place, and most people never went back to check old comments.


I figure 12 days assuming the submission period is a week.

I like the idea too, at least in part. It follows closely some of the thoughts I posted when the first masters was a hot topic of discussion. But the advance notice part sort of torpedoes the "thanks for what you've contributed over time", or "thanks for being the kind of member that gives more comments than you receive" part, which was in my mind back then. Now those people are thrown into the same "reward" challenge as people who make lots of comments in the next 12 days so that they can claim the prize of entering this invitational.

To get right down to the lowest common denominator so to speak, the crudest way of putting it-- the unselfsh (people who have made more comments than they receive since they have been here) and going to be grouped with the selfish (the people who will make lots of comments now just to get themselves into this invitational) to seek their reward. I think it would be a shame if all three ribbons went to people who qualified after the challenge was announced.

I can't help but think that it would have come out better if all the SC/admins had been given a chance for their input to be considered, and perhaps be incorporated into the plan, before going public.

As always, just my two cents.
 04/25/2005 10:07:34 PM · #41
I appreciate any comment that I get, although it's different if people are going around leaving thoughtless comments just to raise the number to meet the challenge requirements, however.... back to people saying simply "wow" as a comment, the first "wow" comment I got kept me smiling all day!! LOL, for someone to look at my photo and think "wow" was a huge compliment to me, and I truly appreciated it.
 04/25/2005 10:25:20 PM · #42
I try to wait until a challenge is over before I read the comments, so I don't know if the content/quality has been affected by this development, but I'd say the quantity of comments being left is running at nearly twice the "normal" rate, with nearly 10% of the voters leaving a comment.
 04/25/2005 10:58:26 PM · #43
There is forever such controvery regarding comments. Have you ever been to a party and asked the group present to give their feelings on a subject. That is right, some will lead the pack and some will exhibit the utmost hesitancy with great word economy.

Tell me, does a "Wow" or "Awesome" or "10" make you want to quit? Compare this with the more verbose text that contains the good and bad news such as this is wonderful but terribly out of focus. Then you have the full monte where the viewer is adding feelings which exceeded your intentions and by the time it ends you think they would give you a 10.

Yes, it is a fact, images create different impressions in viewers but when you have a site of many different skill levels there can only be a select group that can deliver competent comments.

However, even those one liners of, "I like this" or "No, it does nothing for me" have as much value when you tally the end results.

My approach to commenting is that I look at the image and I can tell at once if the photographer is serious about his effort or not. If he is not, I may not comment until I get my 20percent quota in and when I do I try to present my version of the attempt. But there is no point in going much deeper. When I do see an effort wherein the members tries because the image is almost there then I spend more time. These folks want to learn. To the experts, I merely admire their work and do not refrain from letting them know.

In total, all comments are good but of course cut and paste to me is a crime. Absent cut and paste, any comment in any manner is always welcome because the comment will either lean to the good or to the bad of the image. Images that leave people cold are best left alone as there is no real effort to bring a viable image into the challenge. For example in the People's challenge I was guilty of entering my first snap shot and I did not expect any mercy or consideration. What I got I deserved.

My entire point is that we all comment different and that a simple "Wow" has as much strength as a full discourse which always takes the view of the commenter and his belief system of what a good image is.

Message edited by author 2005-04-25 23:25:49.
 04/25/2005 11:13:56 PM · #44
Originally posted by casualguy:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
unless you are inspired to do so by the image. Don't do it just so you can make a quota to get in an invitational challenge.


I think a thread like this (although justified) may only serve to make those who are already self-conscious about their commenting ability to withdraw and be even more so.


I posted a different thread topic on that very issue.
 04/25/2005 11:42:09 PM · #45
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
My entire point is that we all comment different and that a simple "Wow" has as much strength as a full discourse which always takes the view of the commenter and his belief system of what a good image is.

Wow!

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