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01/20/2005 04:21:49 PM · #26 |
I'm talking about your level of photographic skills, not your language skills or your overall intelligence. Why did you bring language skills into this discussion?
Sorry to disappoint some who have posted here but a DSLR is not an entry level digital camera, unless, of course, you have a deep background in film. Why do you think Canon makes PowerShot models, and Nikon makes Coolpix models? Anyone who starts out with a DSLR as their first camera is wasting money. Anyone serious about photography will have a better foundation of skills if they work their way up to a DSLR, learning things along the way. And will get a better value for the dollar by waiting to buy a more technically advanced DSLR after their skill level approaches that needed to operate a DSLR.
Canon, Nikon, and their stockholders are happy that so many people have money to waste.
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01/20/2005 04:23:35 PM · #27 |
Well I'm a reasonably new S5500/S5100 owner and I am absolutley in love with the camera. It has a minor issue with noise, which neat image soon sorts out, but apart from that, I find it a real joy to use. What problems do you have with the Fuji Core?
This discussion reminds me of the tale of the two writers that somebody was telling me about. 2 Writers go out and buy a typewriter each. One decides on purchasing the latest in typing technology, light as a feather, keys that are sensual to the touch, silent as a mouse, will even cook your dinner for you. The other purchases a cheap rusty second hand 60kg full of cobwebs effort that can be heard from a mile away.
Which of the writers is going to write the best story? |
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01/20/2005 04:35:26 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by WaysOfSeeing:
Which of the writers is going to write the best story? |
Using the same anology, give the better writer the better word processor and how much faster can he write?
If you have the choice why not use the best tools at your disposal?
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01/20/2005 04:40:07 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Coreuk:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Mostly curious - what do you find wrong with your S5500 that you hope to fix by buying a more expensive camera ? |
Eh? you cant be serious about asking me that ??
Have you ever tried the S5500 ? if you have you would have seen that its zoom is basicly useless and the picture quality is worse then on my sony dsc-p32
I know there is alot of options you can use in it, but i have tried most of the settings and most doesnt help the picture quality without going on a comprise with the picture i want.
So tell me what you would do, buy a new camera that will live up to the pictures you want to take, or stay with the S5500 and comprise ? |
Yes, I was entirely serious. From what I've seen, the S5500 is a good camera and can produce very good results in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.
Just spending another few thousand pounds will get you another camera, but will it change anything ?
Now, maybe your particular camera is broken and that might be worth looking in to. Or maybe there are specific things about the S5500 that are limiting you that you want to change, and when you can articulate those then that is a great time to upgrade to a better camera. But if you can't get a good picture out of a working s5500, you'll have similar issues with a D70 or 300D - they'll just cost you more. I'd recommend getting some help with your existing camera, until you can at least get shots as good as the samples below:
some samples (the S5100 and S5500 are the same camera)
Of course, if money isn't a problem, get either the Nikon or the Canon and go for it, but don't expect it change your pictures dramatically. |
i am not that rich so that money doesn´t matter, but on the other hand i also want to be able to take good and clear pictures because there is no reason to take the pictures if they are bad.
i have taken some decent shots like they have in dp-review but when it comes to pictures take above 64 ISO it becomes unclear and filled with noise also when it comes to pictures taken with the zoom its very rare they become clear and without noise.
So let me ask you something, if you where unhappy with 20% of a cameras function and whats it able to do would you stay with the camera or would you buy a camera that you know would take the 20% you where after perfect.
I know that i might have sounded like the S5500/S5100 is a horrible camera but its not that horrible and if someone who can live without the last 20% would buy it, im sure they would be more then happy with it, but when the times comes when they move away from the normal picture taking and goes into more complex pictures i am also sure that they would move away from it, and buy a new one.
with a Nikon 70D i can get a advance DSLR which will last me a long time, and will help me advance and become better and better. and i can get the last 20% i want, |
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01/20/2005 04:42:24 PM · #30 |
| I think the best tools are the ones the user feels the most comfortable with and enjoys using. When viewing the final result, be it a novel, a photograph, or another art form, it is often completely irrevelant. |
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01/20/2005 04:49:57 PM · #31 |
I have owned and used the 602zoom and agree that noise when zooming can be a problem, the S5500 Zoom has a better spec than the 602 and I see no reason why it can't take pictures as good or even better than it's predecessor, The two pictures you have in your portfolio look to me to be suffering from camera shake which indicates to slow a shutter speed and wrong settings.
I suggest before you go and spend more money thoroughly read the manual and give it a serious try, I am sure it is something simple you are doing wrong.
I agree about the comments on dslr choice, I am finding the transition very difficult and I have been taking pictures for years.
Good luck and hope you solve the problem,
Paul.
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01/20/2005 04:54:14 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
. if you cannot articulate, clearly, what it is about the S5500 that you think is holding back your photography that says something |
Coolhar, this is what made me think that you where attacking my language skills,
i am sorry if i misunderstood you, but if you had said based on the pictures i have seen you seem like a newbie, i wouldn´t have taken it so hard.
But why should buying a DSLR be based on your skills? wouldn´t you learn faster and become much better by staying with one camera for a long time then getting 3-4 different cameras and be forced to learn each over again because the functions become different and they way they take the photos.
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01/20/2005 05:13:34 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Coreuk:
But why should buying a DSLR be based on your skills? wouldn´t you learn faster and become much better by staying with one camera for a long time then getting 3-4 different cameras and be forced to learn each over again because the functions become different and they way they take the photos. |
This is exactly the logic I would go with. I had P&S film cameras years ago and never was satified with their range and because of the limitations never got very serious about what I was doing until I busted out and sprung for an SLR. The first week of getting used to the thing and learning such things as apperature control and shutter speeds I write off as a very rewarding learning experience. Within a month I was shooting av mode and my pictures along with my interest and enthusiasm had improved very noticably.
The step up was one of the best and most important decisions I have made in my life. I have never looked back.
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01/20/2005 05:23:14 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by Coreuk:
But why should buying a DSLR be based on your skills? wouldn´t you learn faster and become much better by staying with one camera for a long time then getting 3-4 different cameras and be forced to learn each over again because the functions become different and they way they take the photos. |
This is exactly the logic I would go with. I had P&S film cameras years ago and never was satified with their range and because of the limitations never got very serious about what I was doing until I busted out and sprung for an SLR. The first week of getting used to the thing and learning such things as apperature control and shutter speeds I write off as a very rewarding learning experience. Within a month I was shooting av mode and my pictures along with my interest and enthusiasm had improved very noticably.
The step up was one of the best and most important decisions I have made in my life. I have never looked back. |
Yes, this is what im thinking
If i want to be taken serious as a photograf i need to be able to proud of the work im doing and with the S5500 i am not proud of the pictures im taking because they are unclear and filled with noise.
So would a nikon 70D be to big, it might but if i can be proud of the work im doing and know that the picture i take is clear and without noise
which is better
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01/20/2005 05:57:18 PM · #35 |
I have been using a Coolpix 5700, which I think most people would agree is a very good pro-sumer model and can take excellent pictures in the right hands (not mine, yet).
'Tho I mostly used it for happy snaps I recently started wanting more from my images and so started analysing the photographs I admired and tried to emulate them. This is when I started realising the cameras limitations. I knew I would better my skills with time and practice but the 5700 will always have its limit.
Fortunately I can afford to upgrade and have chosen the D70 (hope to get today) based on 2 weeks of reading every review I could find.
My point is that initially I could not articulate why I needed to upgrade, I just knew I was missing 'something'. However, after only a week at DPC I can already tell you it was things like limited DOF & FOV that I felt were holding me back.
However, Coolhar you do have a valid point. I was going to buy several lenses with the camera but when the salesperson asked me some basic questions I realised I didn't know why I wanted them so for now I have just opted for the 18-70 DX and will wait 'til I find that something 'missing' again before purchasing any more. |
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01/20/2005 06:32:20 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
learning such things as apperature control and shutter speeds I write off as a very rewarding learning experience. |
These are things someone planning on doing serious photography needs to learn. But you don't need a DSLR to learn them. And some people think you will learn them better, gain a deeper knowledge, if you don't have a camera that will make up for all your shortcomings. It will force you learn the basics instead of relying on the camera.
nsbca7, in case you haven't looked at them lately, the current generation of top level, but not DSLR, digicams have manual controls for aperture and shutter speed, and almost everything else you can adjust on a DSLR. About the only thing they don't have is interchangeable lenses.
Coreuk, why don't you expplain your frustrations with your 5500 some more to us. Perhaps we can help you get more satisfaction out of it. You said "i have taken some decent shots like they have in dp-review but when it comes to pictures take above 64 ISO it becomes unclear and filled with noise also when it comes to pictures taken with the zoom its very rare they become clear and without noise."
Noise is an issue at higher ISO but you should be able to use at least one or two notches above the minimum before they become unusable. And running them thru a noise reduction program like Neat Image will clean up a lot of the ones you think are noisy. Most people here use a noise reduction program at one time or another.
If your images become less clear as you go to the long end of the zoom range perhaps you are seeing the result of camera shake. Do you have a tripod?
That camera is capable of getting clear pictures at full zoom under the proper conditions. Doesn't sound to me like the problems you are having are going to be cured by getting a much more expensive camera.
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 18:37:55.
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01/20/2005 06:40:14 PM · #37 |
Coreuk;
This is what Coolhar meant to say:
"Before you make a large investment in upgraded equipment, you would do well to study your work and ask yourself "What is it about this work that I am not happy with?" Then ask yourself, "Are my dissatisfactions based on limits built into the camera, or are they based on limits of my ability at this time?"
I used a camera very much like yours for 2 years, and I still sell prints I made using that camera for $150 apiece. I scaled up to the Coolpix 5700 to get better esolution for larger prints. In the work I do now, I don't "need" a full-scale DSLR. I say this because I'm a former professional photographer who used to have literally tens of thousands of dollars of the best equipment, and I know what's involved in setting up a package of body and lenses. I prefer the smaller size of the Nikon I am using, the optics are more than adequate, the resolution is sufficient for an excellent 13x19 print, and I can carry the whole damned thing in one hand, anythere, any time. It has a 10x zoom and really good macro; what more do I need for my sort of work?
So I look at my work, and I see that all that's holding me back right now is me, not the camera, and I wait until I can honestly say "I need Big Glass" or whatever, before I make a further investment in cameras.
Robt.
Oh yeah, I totally agree that there's little point in inexperienced photographers buying high-end cameras. The options are so many, and so daunting, it's intimidating to try to wade through the variables and figure out which adjustment has which result in which area of the work. For any photographer, the first thing that needs training is the eye; once the eye is in good shape, the technical stuff comes next. It's possible to take wonderful pictures with pinhole cameras, for heaven's sake...
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 18:43:17.
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01/20/2005 06:45:24 PM · #38 |
| Pick up a fully manual film camera that you can buy for between 50 - 100 dollars. Shoot a few rolls of slide film and then decide if really need to spend the big bucks on a digital camera + accessories worth over 2k. |
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01/20/2005 06:46:36 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by nsbca7:
learning such things as apperature control and shutter speeds I write off as a very rewarding learning experience. |
Coreuk, why don't you expplain your frustrations with your 5500 some more to us. Perhaps we can help you get more satisfaction out of it. You said "i have taken some decent shots like they have in dp-review but when it comes to pictures take above 64 ISO it becomes unclear and filled with noise also when it comes to pictures taken with the zoom its very rare they become clear and without noise."
Noise is an issue at higher ISO but you should be able to use at least one or two notches above the minimum before they become unusable. And running them a noise reduction program like Neat Image will clean up a lot of the ones you think are noisy. Most people here use a noise reduction program at one time or another.
If your images become less clear as you go to the long end of the zoom range perhaps you are seeing the result of camera shake. Do you have a tripod?
That camera is capable of getting clear pictures at full zoom under the proper conditions. Doesn't sound to me like the problems you are having are going to be cured by getting a much more expensive camera. |
Coolhar, no dont have a tripod yet but i am defently getting one.
but shouldn´t i be able to take prober pictures without a tripod, i know i should be using that when im taking zoom pictures. but i have taken a few dozen shoots where it was positioned on a wall so no shaking should be in the picture.
But my main concern is that when i take a picture it always seem to become blury and filled with noise. expect on iso 64. thats where the pictures i have uploadet is taken on.
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01/20/2005 06:52:31 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Coreuk;
This is what Coolhar meant to say:
"Before you make a large investment in upgraded equipment, you would do well to study your work and ask yourself "What is it about this work that I am not happy with?" Then ask yourself, "Are my dissatisfactions based on limits built into the camera, or are they based on limits of my ability at this time?"
I used a camera very much like yours for 2 years, and I still sell prints I made using that camera for $150 apiece. I scaled up to the Coolpix 5700 to get better esolution for larger prints. In the work I do now, I don't "need" a full-scale DSLR. I say this because I'm a former professional photographer who used to have literally tens of thousands of dollars of the best equipment, and I know what's involved in setting up a package of body and lenses. I prefer the smaller size of the Nikon I am using, the optics are more than adequate, the resolution is sufficient for an excellent 13x19 print, and I can carry the whole damned thing in one hand, anythere, any time. It has a 10x zoom and really good macro; what more do I need for my sort of work?
So I look at my work, and I see that all that's holding me back right now is me, not the camera, and I wait until I can honestly say "I need Big Glass" or whatever, before I make a further investment in cameras.
Robt.
Oh yeah, I totally agree that there's little point in inexperienced photographers buying high-end cameras. The options are so many, and so daunting, it's intimidating to try to wade through the variables and figure out which adjustment has which result in which area of the work. For any photographer, the first thing that needs training is the eye; once the eye is in good shape, the technical stuff comes next. It's possible to take wonderful pictures with pinhole cameras, for heaven's sake... |
I can see what your saying Bear, i have looked closey to the pictures i could take with the dsc-p32 and i feel they have a clarity i have yet to see in the S5500, if i take a picture with auto in the same way i would with the sony i can clearly see the DSC-P32 picture is much more clear and i feel happy, but when i look at the S5500 pictures on auto i can see that its clear, but not in the same way,
Shouldn´t it be better, shouldn´t it be much more clear, since the S5500 is a much higher MP then the sony.
xion, i dont get your comment???
Message edited by author 2005-01-20 18:55:34. |
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01/20/2005 06:59:41 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
If you have the choice why not use the best tools at your disposal? |
There is nothing wrong whatsoever with using the best tools at your disposal, providing you can use them that is. This discussion though, from what I can gather, seems to be about an individual who has claimed to be new to digital photography, has trouble handling the digital camera they have, and instead wants to purchase an expensive DSLR. I can barely drive a car, would going out and buying a ferrari make me a better driver?
Bloody Madness I tell you...:)
Coreuk...You do whatever is best for you man, all the best.
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01/20/2005 07:09:08 PM · #42 |
Coreuk,
From what I'm seeing in your portfolio it appears that focus is not achieved on the subject you want. Sometimes this is due to objects in the frame having more contrast than your main subject. In a few it just appears to be focused on surrounding branches either in front or behind your main subject.
I realize you are asking about moving to a DSLR which is your choice however maybe another chance for your current camera is in order. There are other users of that camera on this site. Maybe they have some tips and tricks that will help you get the most out of it. Just a suggestion.
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01/20/2005 07:38:40 PM · #43 |
| Why not buy a dslr. School children start off with a slr for a reason. So they can use it and know what adjustment affects what quality in the picture. With digital, it doesn't matter how many photos he takes to find out this information. I think the "growing into" a dslr encourages people to waste a lot more money than just buying the most camera they can afford. First they buy a small p/s costing a couple hundred dollars. Then well meaning people tell them to buy another p/s with a few more features because they don't know everything about photography yet. There goes a few more hundred dollars. Then they are told to buy a dslr. Why waste the money on products you know you will out grow, at most, in a year? Go for the most you think you will need and can afford from the start. Save yourself some money. |
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01/20/2005 09:05:39 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Coreuk:
Coolhar, no dont have a tripod yet but i am defently getting one.
but shouldn´t i be able to take prober pictures without a tripod, i know i should be using that when im taking zoom pictures. but i have taken a few dozen shoots where it was positioned on a wall so no shaking should be in the picture.
But my main concern is that when i take a picture it always seem to become blury and filled with noise. expect on iso 64. thats where the pictures i have uploadet is taken on. |
It's beginning to sound like your 5500 my not be working properly. It should get images equal to your old Sony, if not better.
Have you done a close comparison of shots handheld and "positioned on a wall"? Try taking test shots at full zoom and in the same, good light and with all the camera's settings the same. Use a subject at medium distance that will fill the frame by at least half. Be real careful not to move the camera as you press the shutter button. If they are both equally blurry, camera shake probably is not your problem. Try the same thing at half zoom and minimum zoom to see what you get.
Shooting in low light and/or long exposures will increase noise, even at a low ISO setting. How does it do at ISO 100, or 200, in good light and half zoom? Those should be favorable conditions so it ought to do ok.
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01/20/2005 09:27:44 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by pcody:
Why not buy a dslr. School children start off with a slr for a reason. So they can use it and know what adjustment affects what quality in the picture. With digital, it doesn't matter how many photos he takes to find out this information. I think the "growing into" a dslr encourages people to waste a lot more money than just buying the most camera they can afford. First they buy a small p/s costing a couple hundred dollars. Then well meaning people tell them to buy another p/s with a few more features because they don't know everything about photography yet. There goes a few more hundred dollars. Then they are told to buy a dslr. Why waste the money on products you know you will out grow, at most, in a year? Go for the most you think you will need and can afford from the start. Save yourself some money. |
My sentiments exactly. Worst case scenario, what can it hurt? It's his money.
I agree with some of the arguments, getting a better camera is not instantly going to turn him into a Paul Strand, but it will give him more freedom to learn and save him from having to upgrade as soon. Besides the subject of this thread was not whether he should advance to a DSLR or stick with a P&S, it was more on the lines of "I'm buying a DSLR give me advise on which one is better." He's already made the decision to buy a DSLR. Which one was all he was asking.
My advice: Rebel. Great camera. $720 without a lens.
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01/20/2005 10:33:16 PM · #46 |
two years ago this guy bought a canon 300D and never look back. now Adobe Photoshop contracted him to supply more photographs for Element 3.
my point? dont let them tell you what you can and can't do, the best advise is within you. |
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01/21/2005 04:05:20 AM · #47 |
Hi Coreuk.
I can feel your frustation.
I was in the very same boat you're now a few weeks ago. I had a Finepix S5000 and went for a 300D and a few lenses. I was in a point where taking pictures was no longer fun due to the images' lack of quality. What I found disappointing was:
a) Noise, noise, and then more noise. The S5000 had a lowest ISO of 200, go imagine. I couldn't stand it.
b) Jpeg quality not adjustable, artifacts all over. Sure, shooting in raw only noise was left.
c) Focus speed. Focus in low ligth. Manual focus useless.
d) Shutter lag. Press now, shoot later :)
e) DOF? what is that? the camera had no idea, not even wide open.
f) Very expensive memory cards. A 512Mb card accounted for half the camera's value.
Overall the picture quality was ok for snaps, but whenever trying to go any further I gave up after seeing the pics. I agree than from time to time a good picture came out the camera, but I chalk them to luck, not even being very careful about conditions.
I'm still learning the guts of the 300D, but all the issues listed above are gone, it was me against the camera, now it's just the camera and me. If I cannot take a good pic, it's my fault, so I know it's me who must improve its skills.
My advice? whichever camera you decide at the end, go for it! To me it's a matter of how confortable you feel with the tool, whether it is good or bad. If you don't, you loose your interest in pressing the shutter.
Hope it helps.
Message edited by author 2005-01-21 04:07:20. |
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01/24/2005 12:31:06 PM · #48 |
Thanks for your post Carlos
i was down looking at the Nikon 70D + 18-70mm linse and have ordered it to be delivered in 2 weeks time so im looking forward to it. :)
but i see Coolhar´s idea, its not anything like the fuji S5500 and it almost take me back to the good old analog camera days, where it was just you and the camera, so again thanks to everyone who posted in this thread,
you sure came up with alot of good points and i can tell you it wasn´t a easy decision because the fuji S5500 seems like a good camera but its just to bad picture quality for the needs i have.
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