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01/04/2005 07:49:24 AM · #1 |
My goal is not to cast aspersions toward anyone or to pick a fight nor to run anyone off from commenting/sharing their opinion but I read where people make authoritative statements about other photographers' work and then I never see any examples of the commenter's work that demonstrate that they have a background that makes them an authority or even a well-informed commentor. I'm not talking about someone who says, "There's a shadow" or "You cut the subject's head with the horizon again" (a problem to which I'll cop). I'm talking about someone evaluating photos taken for a model (or an aspiring model) and then writing that those photos could not or should not be allowed in a "professional" portfolio.
If a reviewer or critiquer is going to make an authoritative statement about photographing models then please provide a link to your professional or even amatuer work with models so that those of us who shoot regularly with models can compare our own artistic understandings, impressions and attempts against yours.
I've seen several people be vocal and please don't misunderstand me; I welcome comments from anyone. Just consider whether you are really an authority on how to build a portfolio for someone. I know what its like to go on a four-hour photoshoot with a model when there is no one except you, the model and her escort/chaperone and you're lugging all your equipment around and trying to be artistic and trying to get something technically acceptable out of the session both for your own use and for the model's use. Then to come to DPC and have people who appear to have no background make a statement authoritatively about why your work should not be included in a model's portfolio. Follow that up with a call from a model or his/her parents, excited because he/she landed a job and you get all kinds of thanks and subsequent photoshoots. Frankly I haven't said anything up 'til now because I'm satisfied that people who work with me are getting jobs across the nation. My work may not be the edgiest but it has a place in the portfolios of some people who get paid to model. I just get tired of seeing others who have been following a similar course as I get repeat comments from some of the same members and the commenters don't display their own work with models yet they speak as though they've been in the modeling industry for years.
If you think I'm being a smartalec allow me to point out some poeple on DPC who are both critical towards what they would be willing to give a model (or even put into their own portfolios) and also have shown their work to be critiqued or as evidence of what they mean when they discuss what they think is accepable and not acceptable.
GraphicFunk (portfolio), ericlimon (a few in this portfolio), Gordon (looks like he doesn't have anything in his portfolio for this now), EddyG (image from a photoshoot) among others have displayed their own work for review and comparison. I don't shoot the same thing these people do but I respect the work they've produced and at least can see from what platform they make their statements.
There are several photographers on this site who do amazing work with portraits; easily surpassing my own artistic vision, technical capacity or perhaps work ethic when it comes to producing artistically beautiful and technical superior photos of poeple. There are some who shoot weddings or still-life photography. That doesn't mean that they have experience with what should be put in the portfolio of someone who wants to model. Those individuals or any individual may make comments that are insightful, helpful, challenging and productive. I think I (and hopefully anyone who shoots with models and shares the photos on this site) would welcome comments from anyone out there. The beef I have is with the seemingly endless questioning "What's this for, because you know that this shot just doesn't fit well into one genre or another, etc" or the fatalistic statement "This would never work as it is in a professional portfolio" when given by people who may not know what would or wouldn't work in a portfolio. If anyone wants to comment on what they see or what they like or what they find distracting or uninteresting then go for it. Please. Just don't take a potshot at someone as though you have an inside track in the industry if you haven't taken the time to demonstrate your own attempts at this type of work. Your values or opinions have value; your demanding attitude in the face of other photographers sweat and efforts doesn't.
Unless you've spent time adding to someone's portfolio, temper your comments. Remark on what you don't like or what you do or what you see in the composition or how something is distracting. I'm not looking to just get positive feedback for myself or anyone else. Please keep in mind that if you have experience building a portfolio for someone, there are several members of DPC who would welcome your professional or amatuer opinion. If you don't have similar experiences then I welcome your opinions, too, but may not appreciate you taking a free shot when it doesn't cost you anything in the way of experience.
Thanks,
Kev |
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01/04/2005 07:59:02 AM · #2 |
If I comment on your images during a chellenge, just ignore it as I'm clearly not worthy. Maybe I'm missing your point here, but I just really don't see how having photographed models makes anyone any more able to critique photographs of models. Just because I've never done something doesn't mean that after studying it, I haven't developed a unique taste for it.
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01/04/2005 08:01:12 AM · #3 |
I agree & disagree.
Firstly, one doesn't have to have shoot a portrait or have even held a camera in order to qualify to critique any kind of photograph.
Rather like professional food critiques are seldom top chefs, or football writers are seldom ex professional footballers.
However, there are many people saying many things on DPC that are no brain comments so I agree with you, but that's what happens when your in a pool of people with a huge range of ability from extremely talented individuals to those with no hope of ever taking a decent photograph.
If you submit a shot from critique here, you must be able to accept comments from both sides of the ability pond.
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01/04/2005 08:15:03 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
...those with no hope of ever taking a decent photograph. |
Hey, leave me out of this. :)
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01/04/2005 08:15:25 AM · #5 |
| I agree with Kevin, comments like "those photos could not or should not be allowed in a professional portfolio" should not be made by people without a background in modeling or portfolio building. |
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01/04/2005 08:20:28 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by deapee:
If I comment on your images during a chellenge, just ignore it as I'm clearly not worthy. Maybe I'm missing your point here, but I just really don't see how having photographed models makes anyone any more able to critique photographs of models. Just because I've never done something doesn't mean that after studying it, I haven't developed a unique taste for it. |
I don't believe Kev is talking about commenting or critique in general. I believe he is talking about people with no proof of being in the field making comments that a photo should not be in a professional portfolio. That's all.
You're photo critique is worthy, as you know what you like/dislike about a photo.
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01/04/2005 08:22:45 AM · #7 |
oh...then I agree -- like I said, maybe I missed the point.
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01/04/2005 09:42:23 AM · #8 |
I can sympathize. I do know what's involved with location model shoots. They can be a HUGE amount of work. I have been on several, mostly as the assistant(read: packmule/grunt/refector-boy/lightmeter-boy/note-taker/gopher/all-around-servant). Then to have someone who's is totally ignorant of the modelling field, condemn the resulting images as being amateurish, when clearly it is not (at least in your case), must be pretty damn annoying. With anything you post on here, you have to filter the noise out of the comments. Overall, I think DPC has a decent signal to noise ratio, especially when you get some meaningful comments from some of the people on here who do produce quality work or have good insight into what makes a good photograph in general.
BTW, You really haven't lived until you've hauled a diesel generator, strobe packs/heads, camera bags, and all the other crap necessary for a shoot, including the model (at least she was petite) across 2 miles of muddy fields at the photographer's whim only to have the Art Director toss away all the shots from that location as "just so much crap".
Message edited by author 2005-01-04 10:56:25.
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01/04/2005 09:51:09 AM · #9 |
I agree with both sides of the arguement. I'd just like to add that if a person is looking for real help with putting together a professional portfolio, I don't think this is the best website to come to. This site offers a great deal of help to many people ... but it isn't specific enough to get the kind of help needed for someone looking to go pro.
my opinion, of course |
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01/04/2005 10:37:35 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by hopper:
I agree with both sides of the arguement. I'd just like to add that if a person is looking for real help with putting together a professional portfolio, I don't think this is the best website to come to. This site offers a great deal of help to many people ... but it isn't specific enough to get the kind of help needed for someone looking to go pro.
my opinion, of course |
This may seem odd, but I have actually received some of my best advice her on DPC. Shooting with models is much like wedding photography and designing web sites in that there are many people with marginal skills out to make a quick buck. It can be very difficult to sort throught the crap and find solid advice. In fact, sometimes it is even hard to find the good work through all of the crap that is spread around the Internet these day (too bad you cannot google for GOOD model portfolios). I post from time to time to get the opinions of people I have learned to respect.
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01/04/2005 10:46:34 AM · #11 |
sure, and we're lucky to have a diverse group of excellent photographers here, i just mean it's general website, not specific to weddings, or portraiture, or whatever. So SOME advice may not be good advice (which will be true anywhere ... i think you know what i mean, though).
If i go to a "general website design" forum and ask how my new personal homepage looks, the responses will be different than if I go to a "medical website design" forum, or "e commerce website design" forum.
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
This may seem odd, but I have actually received some of my best advice her on DPC. |
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01/04/2005 11:09:27 AM · #12 |
the sad thing is, regardless of how good you are there will always be someone to say it doesn't belong.
It's sort of like that show 'america's top model'.. they take some of the worst pictures I've ever seen (my opinion only) and blame it on bad modeling.
It's a fact that most agencies want a specific type of shot.. When you break that protocol it doesn't mean you've failed, but don't be suprised if they don't like it. I only work with models 2% of the time but they all 'look' for the same thing;; a headshot.
As far as the comments you are recieving, I'm sorry people have not shared in your vision but that's what happens. This site is a good example of what people will say to your model. It's up to you to take a wonderful shot, not up to the world to fit your mold. I stopped posting for critique a while ago because, like you, I got sick of hearing stupid comments. But there are two sides,, now I don't get feedback except from paying clients.
One last thing.. You really don't have to be a professional, or a portraitist, or whatever to know when you don't like something. It's not their fault when you ask for the comments.
Joe
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01/04/2005 11:51:13 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
{clip}
If you submit a shot from critique here, you must be able to accept comments from both sides of the ability pond. |
This line struck home for me... I've been guilty of not accepting comments (and votes) correctly... I might just print this and put it on the wall over my monitor... Thanks...
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01/04/2005 12:05:56 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by hopper:
all the other crap necessary for a shoot, including the model |
Are you sure you want to include a petite model? Perhaps you ment "in addition to the model" ... just a little humor :)
oops! this quote is for the note above 'hopper'
Message edited by author 2005-01-04 12:08:33. |
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01/04/2005 12:09:02 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by fotobydave:
Originally posted by hopper:
all the other crap necessary for a shoot, including the model |
Are you sure you want to include a petite model? Perhaps you ment "in addition to the model" ... just a little humor :) |
:) i didn't say that, Spazmo did |
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01/04/2005 12:11:25 PM · #16 |
"those photos could not or should not be allowed in a professional portfolio"
LOL the entire thread is honestly funny. Is that really a quote? I've read pretty much all the portfolio threads, even commented, and never read that 'quote'. I'm sure this thread is directed at myself amongst others. Pish-ah. I take direction from no man, especially one with such a poor argument as the original post
Message edited by author 2005-01-04 12:13:20. |
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01/04/2005 12:20:52 PM · #17 |
My guess is that this is all about another thread where a number of people said that the photo in question should not be used in a portfolio. Where these people being rude to say this?, not in the least, the person who as looking for comments asked if the photo should be included in a portfolio.
He did not ask for opinions from only qualified photographers. He said he realized there were some problem and what did others think.
If I am right on this I did not see what I would all rude comments.
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01/04/2005 12:28:40 PM · #18 |
Yes. But even if that was the question that was asked, we should have been sensitive enough to know that the person that asked if it should be included really meant, "what do you think of the picture?". So we should have ignored his original question and left that answer to someone more qualified.
I think I have this right now. |
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01/04/2005 12:35:14 PM · #19 |
WOW Kevin you are one hell of a writer too! It took me for ever to read that one!
I am ooone of the people that has posted for critiques many times on here, and haven't had any experiences with people saying things like that. If anything, people don't like to critique portraits or children. That is just fine with me, but there have been quite a few people, Kevin included, that really make an effort to give a quality, helpful comment. I think that this is still a community with varied tastes, backgrounds, and I.Q.'s. Take bad comments with a grain of salt, and soak up the good ones!
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01/04/2005 02:51:25 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Originally posted by fotobydave:
Originally posted by hopper:
all the other crap necessary for a shoot, including the model |
Are you sure you want to include a petite model? Perhaps you ment "in addition to the model" ... just a little humor :) |
:) i didn't say that, Spazmo did |
either way, I was glad we weren't working with plus size models that day.
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