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11/09/2004 12:08:35 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Since the real issue behind this discussion is the triptych, why not discuss eliminating that rather than defining what types of borders will be allowed. I voted no on the poll. I would have been more likely to vote YES if the wording of the rule proposal was as follows:
You may use borders on your photographs as long as they do not divide the photo into segments that make a single photograph look like a multi-image composition. |
Good point, lets not tippy toe around the REAL reason this has been brought about...namely BradP's beautiful picture.
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11/09/2004 12:09:59 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
Good point, lets not tippy toe around the REAL reason this has been brought about...namely BradP's beautiful picture. |
Okay, lets stop avoiding the fundamental issue. We don't like BradP.
How about a rule change to stop him entering ? Then everything would be sorted, right ? We could remove his past entries too. Problem solved.
Well done cutting through the layers of misdirection to the heart of the issue. He is an obvious felon, just look at his profile picture. He shouldn't even be allowed to vote.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 12:16:12. |
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11/09/2004 12:12:39 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
I think it is important to point out that borders like this:
will still be legal, because the borders are made up of contiguous solid colors around the perimeter of the photo.
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Isn't this a white border / black border combo? I'm pretty sure this has 2 borders with different colors, no? Am I misunderstanding the "rule"?
I voted no because if I don't like a border, I can already vote it down...
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11/09/2004 12:14:16 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Okay, lets stop avoiding the fundamental issue. We don't like BradP.
How about a rule change to stop him entering ? Then everything would be sorted, right ? We could remove his past entries too. Problem solved. |
ROFLMAO! |
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11/09/2004 12:14:57 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Isn't this a white border / black border combo? I'm pretty sure this has 2 borders with different colors, no? Am I misunderstanding the "rule"?
I voted no because if I don't like a border, I can already vote it down... |
Yes it is a contiguous solid white (yellowish) border, and then a contiguous solid black border. So it would be fine.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 12:15:06. |
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11/09/2004 12:17:03 PM · #56 |
Forget about changing the borders rule, just leave it the way it is.
Best to leave well enough alone. |
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11/09/2004 12:18:14 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Isn't this a white border / black border combo? I'm pretty sure this has 2 borders with different colors, no? Am I misunderstanding the "rule"? |
The proposed rule would still permit multiple borders of varying width and color.
As much as people like to complain about how this site should focus more on "photography", there are obviously a large number of people who feel that there should be no limit to how "creative" you can be in augmenting your photograph with a "border". |
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11/09/2004 12:18:38 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by myqyl:
Isn't this a white border / black border combo? I'm pretty sure this has 2 borders with different colors, no? Am I misunderstanding the "rule"?
I voted no because if I don't like a border, I can already vote it down... |
Yes it is a contiguous solid white (yellowish) border, and then a contiguous solid black border. So it would be fine. |
At the very least, I think this new rule needs to be reworded if it's going to be used. "Contiguous solid" could easily be read as one border only... Though the users here never nitpick to that extent :) Do we? :)
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11/09/2004 12:20:25 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
At the very least, I think this new rule needs to be reworded if it's going to be used. "Contiguous solid" could easily be read as one border only... |
It does say colors with an 's': Contiguous solid colors, which seems pretty clear to me that more than one color may be used, but it is a good point.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 12:21:42. |
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11/09/2004 12:21:27 PM · #60 |
I voted 'yes'.
I love and usually vote higher on creative and impelling borders. They do influence me both against and for the photo in question.
I voted yes because some imaginative souls out there will find ways to use the rule to further their non-photographic/ pro-software skills.
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11/09/2004 12:22:48 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Since the real issue behind this discussion is the triptych, why not discuss eliminating that rather than defining what types of borders will be allowed. I voted no on the poll. I would have been more likely to vote YES if the wording of the rule proposal was as follows:
You may use borders on your photographs as long as they do not divide the photo into segments that make a single photograph look like a multi-image composition. |
While this wording would of course be much less restrictive, I'm very curious as to why, with all the previous discussion in the forums regarding borders adding or not adding to an image, when we get an example where someone has clearly found a creative way to really add to an image's impact with a border, we immediately react to try and ban it. I'll reiterate...
IMO, we should retain a rule set that allows for maximum creativity, and let the voters decide what they will accept. The more that SC is tasked with, the less power is in the hands of the voters. It's that simple. If you vote, and you want your voice to be heard, vote "NO" on this type of limitation.
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11/09/2004 12:30:49 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by myqyl:
At the very least, I think this new rule needs to be reworded if it's going to be used. "Contiguous solid" could easily be read as one border only... |
It does say colors with an 's': Contiguous solid colors, which seems pretty clear to me that more than one color may be used, but it is a good point. |
It might say 'colors' with a 's' but where's the bloody 'u'?!? It's written 'colours'! damn yanks *mutter, mutter*
oh, and it's "a 's'" not "an 's'", unless you've now deemed 's' to be a vowel! ;)
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 12:33:34. |
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11/09/2004 12:33:37 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
there are obviously a large number of people who feel that there should be no limit to how "creative" you can be in augmenting your photograph with a "border". |
Based on what ? That hasn't been asked at any point in this discussion.
It might work in the rant forum political discussions to paint the 'opposition' with positions that haven't been brought up, but it doesn't appear very useful in these threads.
All that's been asked is should the rule be made more restrictive, not thrown away completely (which is what you are implying, by assuming its obvious that people want no limits at all) Perhaps some feel that the rule is fine the way it is ?
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 20:03:27. |
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11/09/2004 12:39:14 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by colda:
oh, and it's "a 's'" not "an 's'", unless you've now deemed 's' to be a vowel! ;) |
Since we are playing grammer games:
the choice of a or an depends on pronunciation, not spelling. Many words that begin with the vowel -u- are preceded by a instead of an because the -u- spelling is often pronounce -yu-, as in useful ("a useful idea"), and uranium ("a uranium isotope")
Since the letter "S" is pronounced "ess", it is grammatically correct to use 'an' and not 'a'. |
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11/09/2004 12:41:56 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by myqyl:
At the very least, I think this new rule needs to be reworded if it's going to be used. "Contiguous solid" could easily be read as one border only... |
It does say colors with an 's': Contiguous solid colors, which seems pretty clear to me that more than one color may be used, but it is a good point. |
More than one color, yes (at least arguably), but more than one border? If one border is around the perimeter of the photo, a second border outside of the first is not around the perimeter of the photo, but around the perimeter of the first border....I suppose you could define all such borders as being a single border even if portions are in clearly different colors, etc.
Just being a nuisance. :-) |
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11/09/2004 12:42:27 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
So... what is wrong with providing this "guidance" for people so they don't have to suffer the low votes and negative comments? To me, this is the kind of thing new members need to help them avoid submitting "awful" borders. |
So are we going to 'guide' new members to all the other ways to score low? Inverted images, messed up saturation, all the technical faux pas, all the bad subject choices? I thought getting a bad score and receiving comments about your 'mistake' is how people learn?
Originally posted by EddyG:
It almost seems like some people are voting "no" so that they will still have a "reason" to rate bordered pictures lowers when voting. |
People will always have a "reason" to rate images low. From the anal interpretation of the challenge description to titles to the restrictive border rules and the wording that will most likely be as ambiguous as the poll wording. |
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11/09/2004 12:42:41 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Based on what ? That hasn't been asked at any point in this discussion. |
On the simple fact that over 47% of the poll respondents have voted against a "simple" border rule. To me, that is a vote for the current "anything goes in the border as long as it isn't clip-art" border rule that is currently in place. |
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11/09/2004 12:46:40 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by moodville:
I thought getting a bad score and receiving comments about your 'mistake' is how people learn? |
The point of my 'guidance' post was that it would remove one common source of "low votes" and "comment complaints". Voters would have to focus on other aspects of the actual photograph (like the things you mentioned)... and this site is supposed to be focused on photography not borders, right? |
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11/09/2004 12:46:58 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
To me, that is a vote for the current "anything goes in the border as long as it isn't clip-art" border rule that is currently in place. |
right... and where does that say 'that there should be no limit to how "creative" you can be in augmenting your photograph with a "border".' ?
That would be very different thing, allowing drawing in the border, adding text, clip art, or 'no limit on how creative you want to be'
A lot of people seem to be voting that things are fine the way they are without need for a more restrictive rule. Claiming they are voting against 'photography' like you did, just seems silly.
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11/09/2004 12:52:12 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by colda:
oh, and it's "a 's'" not "an 's'", unless you've now deemed 's' to be a vowel! ;) |
Since we are playing grammer games:
the choice of a or an depends on pronunciation, not spelling. Many words that begin with the vowel -u- are preceded by a instead of an because the -u- spelling is often pronounce -yu-, as in useful ("a useful idea"), and uranium ("a uranium isotope")
Since the letter "S" is pronounced "ess", it is grammatically correct to use 'an' and not 'a'. |
damn, I knew there was good reason to listen at school ;) |
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11/09/2004 12:53:26 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
... and this site is supposed to be focused on photography not borders, right? |
Very much agreed! |
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11/09/2004 12:55:22 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by moodville:
I thought getting a bad score and receiving comments about your 'mistake' is how people learn? |
The point of my 'guidance' post was that it would remove one common source of "low votes" and "comment complaints". Voters would have to focus on other aspects of the actual photograph (like the things you mentioned)... and this site is supposed to be focused on photography not borders, right? |
This discussion doesn't actually seem to have much to do with beginners though, does it ?
We are discussing various ribbon winning images. Not exactly photographers in need of guidance to stop them making mistakes that are being hammered by the voters.
It seems to be entirely off topic, really. Ben's suggestion on rule wording would address that, while not changing anything about what could be used.
As to borders not having anything to do with photography. Try visiting a gallery some day and note how many images are 4x6s from walmart pinned to the wall. Framing and presentation is part of photography. Even when it is just mounted cleanly on a baseboard.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 12:58:22. |
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11/09/2004 12:57:53 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
where does that say 'that there should be no limit to how "creative" you can be in augmenting your photograph with a "border".' ? |
Because the current SC interpretation of the border rule is "anything goes as a border as long as doesn't use clip-art" (and of course doesn't contain text, which isn't permitted anywhere on a challenge submission).
So if you drew a random, zip-zaggy line around your photo in shades of pink and then add a drop shadow, it would be legal, even under the Basic Editing rules:
along with countless other "creative" things you can do with a photo-editing program.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 13:00:02. |
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11/09/2004 12:58:21 PM · #74 |
What about gigantic borders?
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11/09/2004 12:59:38 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
So if you drew a random, zip-zaggy line around your photo in shades of pink and then add a drop shadow, it would be legal
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Sure. It is also hideous. Does that mean it should be illegal ?
Do you assume the voters have no taste ?
Do you think BradP's image is only good because of the 5 black lines he drew on it ? This idea that a good border automatically makes a crap image good is slightly strange - appart from when people start drawing in major elements of their images using these sorts of techniques. Then the SC should DQ them. You already have rules to this effect. It just requires them to be used. For example, drawing a window on an image for a 'window frame' challenge. A stylistic suggestion in a FAQ wouldn't be a bad thing too. At the same time I'd suggest mentioning not to abuse selective desaturation, over saturation, sharpening and neat image - might as well list trite and cliched subjects too.
But I don't believe you can easily legislate taste, which appears to be the source of discussion now. That is the point of having voters.
Message edited by author 2004-11-09 13:05:55. |
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