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11/01/2004 04:53:08 PM · #176 |
| Having had some time to ponder this issue, I think the masters' challenge is a bad thing. If I win a challenge, I want to win against ALL the talent and great competition, and not just against a smaller section of the community. Anyone who wins one of these challenges does so knowing that a huge amount of skilled and talented photographers have been excluded. |
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11/01/2004 04:54:24 PM · #177 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Having had some time to ponder this issue, I think the masters' challenge is a bad thing. If I win a challenge, I want to win against ALL the talent and great competition, and not just against a smaller section of the community. Anyone who wins one of these challenges does so knowing that a huge amount of skilled and talented photographers have been excluded. |
Quite right! |
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11/01/2004 04:56:13 PM · #178 |
Point taken bod. I'm glad your interest has risen again. Your images made a favorable impression on me when I first started lurking this site.
Message edited by author 2004-11-01 17:03:07. |
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11/01/2004 04:56:42 PM · #179 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
It takes away a chance for me to compete against the Masters if, having an alternative, they don't enter the regular challenges. At least a few will follow this path.
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Regardless of how bad you FEEL that you did not win enough ribbons in regular challenges to qualify, you were not denied a chance to compete against the Masters in all the challenges that qualified them for the Master's challenge. BOO HOO!
Frankly I'm shocked at the whining about this. Rather than sparking a commitment to make better photos so that they might earn their way into the Masters Challenge, this seems to have spurred the crybaby in some. |
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11/01/2004 05:06:37 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
the Master's challenge gives further value to the ribbons...I think it might be better received if the challenge was quarterly or semi-annually and if they were free studies... |
I agree, to win a ribbon in a Master's challenge is a hell of an achievement. Personally, I think the ribbons should be slightly different, something to indicate that they were won in a particularly hard playing field.
As for free studies all the time, assuming they continue .... I like the idea of them being varied. A free study one time, a theme another ..... and I'd particularly like to see a basic editing one.
Oh, and I have have no ribbons so am nowhere close to entering myself ... but the quality of the last one I thought was amazing.
I would be worried about them running too often though, as if they become too everyday the prestige gets lost and the quality of the entries may slip as suddenly it is "just another master's challenge". Quarterly, something like that, sounds good to me.
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11/01/2004 05:09:33 PM · #181 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Rather than sparking a commitment to make better photos ... |
You assume, dear sir, that higher votes = better photos. Perhaps you should question your assumption as others in this discussion have.
Are those dpc winning photos more popular? Yes, among those who voted. Are they "better"? Maybe, maybe not.
You also assume that by discussing the merits of "master's" challenges that those making their arguments here are not also making a commitment to make better photos. How do you draw that conclusion? What evidence supports your statement? |
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11/01/2004 05:12:36 PM · #182 |
Originally posted by Natator:
I agree, to win a ribbon in a Master's challenge is a hell of an achievement. Personally, I think the ribbons should be slightly different, something to indicate that they were won in a particularly hard playing field. |
All the masters are free to submit to the members challenges as are many other good photographers who are not classed as masters, So if anything it's easier to win a ribbon in a masters challenge. |
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11/01/2004 05:14:50 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by Natator:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
the Master's challenge gives further value to the ribbons...I think it might be better received if the challenge was quarterly or semi-annually and if they were free studies... |
I agree, to win a ribbon in a Master's challenge is a hell of an achievement. Personally, I think the ribbons should be slightly different, something to indicate that they were won in a particularly hard playing field.
As for free studies all the time, assuming they continue .... I like the idea of them being varied. A free study one time, a theme another ..... and I'd particularly like to see a basic editing one.
Oh, and I have have no ribbons so am nowhere close to entering myself ... but the quality of the last one I thought was amazing.
I would be worried about them running too often though, as if they become too everyday the prestige gets lost and the quality of the entries may slip as suddenly it is "just another master's challenge". Quarterly, something like that, sounds good to me. |
This is very strange logic... surely it is easier to win a ribbon in a masters' challenge? All the 'masters' are already competing in every other challenge, all you're doing is restricting the competition. |
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11/01/2004 05:16:11 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
And my response, also at the time:
"A very good idea. Take it a little further. Probably too late for the current Masters' but if there are more in the future the entrants should be required to give a full disclosure about there shot. Of course the usual f stop, ISO, shutter speed but also the lens used if a DSLR, location, the editing steps, the editing program(s) used, and some about what they were thinking when they shot, how they came up with the idea, and how did they tailor the vision toward doing well in the challenge. If we are having this challenge for the rest of us to learn from the "Masters" let's get them to share as much of their knowledge as possible. A SC member should check each upload to make sure it had everything before it went into voting stage. Sorry for the extra work SC but it won't be that many you would have to inspect. Nothing is quite as frustrating as finding an interesting shot when voting and wanting to know about it but then when you come back to it after voting to find that the Photographer's Comments section is as bare as Old Mother Hubbard's cupboard." |
Yup, I'd tend to agree that this would add a lot.
Originally posted by coolhar:
This is probably true, to some extent at least, but at what cost in hard feelings, etc.? Is it worth it? |
That is certainly a valid question. Perhaps some of the above would tend to reduce that cost. Right now it just appears elitist for the sake of being elitist, given that there hasn't been much in the way of reason put forward.
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11/01/2004 05:20:18 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Who do these challenges help ? I'd tend to think that the masters challenges have more value to those not allowed to enter, than to those who get to enter, if they choose to take that value from it. |
All previous discussion aside, could you clarify this comment?
I think I wholeheartedly disagree with what you're suggesting but I want to make sure I understand it first! |
You have to understand first that I wholeheartedly believe that commenting is more useful to the person writing the comment than it is to the person who reads it. The discipline of trying to order your thoughts, break them down, articulate them and express them is a much more valuable exercise than actally reading what most people do when they do this. Also, I believe that looking at quality photographs and commenting on them is about the single best way to quickly improve at photography.
With the masters challenge, I'm left with the idea that you get a small set of pretty darn good images, that are an ideal set of images to practice just that analysis and commenting skill that I believe is a great short circuit to understanding what you like, dislike, think makes a good photograph or doesn't. This then directly impacts your own photography.
It is nice and all to be asked to submit an image to that body of work, but it doesn't really help me out a whole lot. Commenting and looking at the images does, though - and it is fantastic that everyone gets to do that. Other than that, it is just another virtual opportunity to win a virtual attaboy. The ribbons aren't actually important at all to me. Being a better photographer and growing in this art & craft just might be.
It is also why I think a 'masters only voting' thing is a fundamentally bad idea.
Message edited by author 2004-11-01 17:21:55.
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11/01/2004 05:31:37 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by bod:
Oh, and is there any chance of handing nshapiro a VIP guest pass for this one? |
I totally second this motion.
And see my related thread: //www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=138975
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11/01/2004 05:51:48 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by tomlewis1980:
.... if anything it's easier to win a ribbon in a masters challenge. |
Agreed. And, if I may carry the thought a bit further, it is also easier to acquire a very high score. Yet those more easily gotten ribbons and scores are lumped right in with the rest of the challenges in the statistical database. Makes it more difficult for us non-Masters to compete stats-wise. |
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11/01/2004 06:10:14 PM · #188 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by tomlewis1980:
.... if anything it's easier to win a ribbon in a masters challenge. |
Agreed. And, if I may carry the thought a bit further, it is also easier to acquire a very high score. Yet those more easily gotten ribbons and scores are lumped right in with the rest of the challenges in the statistical database. Makes it more difficult for us non-Masters to compete stats-wise. |
Frankly, I think this is a weak argument. It was also much easier to win ribbons and get higher scores in the past. Those are lumped right in with the rest of the challenges too.
Stats-wise isn't a competition in any recognised form. Have a look at the highest rated image in the history if you want an example right away that shows the pointlessness of considering this.
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11/01/2004 06:11:05 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
It takes away a chance for me to compete against the Masters if, having an alternative, they don't enter the regular challenges. At least a few will follow this path.
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The same can be said for any challenge that anyone declines to submit an entry. If you don't submit an entry for a challenge, aren't you depriving me, and ALL the other members a chance to compete against you? Do you submit to EVERY challenge? |
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11/01/2004 06:14:43 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Originally posted by jmlelii:
suprise, suprise, MY BEST PHOTO FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH IS SCORING BELOW A 5. I'm sick of having photos win competitions outside DPC, not just online stuff, but real competitions of prints, and on here they score sub 5. Thats ridiculous. I am becoming fed up with this sub 5 crap. ESPECIALLY when its the best photo from an entire MONTH. |
I do understand your frusteration. It's very challenging learning how to make images that appeal to a broad base of users. If it was easy, everyone would ribbon on a regular basis.
May I ask you what your DPC related goals are?
Clara |
It used to be to learn, but now more so than anything its to win ribbons. Anyone who joins this site, regardless if they admit it or deny it, is here to win a ribbon. Its the same reason everyone does the pictures of the day contests, or enters competitions for prints. I think I have learned what I could from this site though, and still after I think 40-50 challenges, my highest score is roughly a 5.7, and my average vote received is sub 5, 4.8 I believe. I'll agree to some of my photos being scored low, as I rushed them without thinking, etc. But some of my shots, take the Botany challenge for example, scored only a 5.7, which is one of my photos that has won in print competition. I think I would leave DPC, but then that would be wasting roughly 15 dollars since I'm a member since March.
I ask for help on photos all the time and no one responds to my calls, yet I go see others get dozens of comments lending advice to help. I'm sure people dislike me because of my honesty, and I am sure that has a lot to do with it. But I can't help who I am. I'm just a tad ticked off. Well, more than a tad.
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11/01/2004 06:30:02 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
It was also much easier to win ribbons and get higher scores in the past. Those are lumped right in with the rest of the challenges too. |
You were here before me so tell me if I've missed something but I can't think of any way to avoid the statistical anomalies that occured as dpc grew. But, IMHO, this latest corruption of the database is unnecessary and easily avoidable.
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11/01/2004 06:55:58 PM · #192 |
Originally posted by bod:
Oh, and is there any chance of handing nshapiro a VIP guest pass for this one? |
I "third" this idea!!
Edited, because Kavey already "seconded" the idea.
Message edited by author 2004-11-01 18:59:41.
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11/01/2004 06:57:02 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by annasense:
Originally posted by bod:
Oh, and is there any chance of handing nshapiro a VIP guest pass for this one? |
I second this idea!! |
I already seconded it but your thirding is suggestive that it would be a really nice gesture.
That said, didn't someone else also propose this challenge suggestion? Who was that?
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11/01/2004 07:00:18 PM · #194 |
lol! i edited my post as you responded to mine!
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11/01/2004 07:03:13 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
That said, didn't someone else also propose this challenge suggestion? Who was that? |
Dsidwell in this thread.
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11/01/2004 07:05:41 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
I am guessing that a lot of people are upset because earning 3 ribbons just to get into another challenge appears completely out of reach. |
Why is this out of reach? A bunch of folks have done it already!
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11/01/2004 07:12:59 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by annasense:
lol! i edited my post as you responded to mine! |
The wonders of cross-posting!
It's practically an institution like cross-dressing and hot cross buns!
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11/01/2004 07:14:22 PM · #198 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Stats-wise isn't a competition in any recognised form. Have a look at the highest rated image in the history if you want an example right away that shows the pointlessness of considering this. |
Good lord, what are you trying to say? ;)
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11/01/2004 07:15:07 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by langdon:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Stats-wise isn't a competition in any recognised form. Have a look at the highest rated image in the history if you want an example right away that shows the pointlessness of considering this. |
Good lord, what are you trying to say? ;) |
I was hoping I wasn't the only one who didn't follow that! ;o)
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11/01/2004 07:19:38 PM · #200 |
I really appreciate everyone's kind consideration for my distress! I'll keep my fingers crossed (but not too hopeful).
As a side note, I still would have rather seen this as a challenge for everyone, and without the use of PS filters. My original proposal was before the advanced editing, and was exactly:
Impressionistic. Learn about some of the techniques of impressionism, and generalize them to a photograph while staying within the DPC rules.
The idea of the challenge was for everyone to do some research on impressionism. Those who don't submit photos won't have to do that research and thinking, so they won't be learning as much, I'm afraid.
Again--I see this is still such a wonderful thoughtful community even in the midst of an "argument".
Message edited by author 2004-11-01 19:20:11. |
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