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11/02/2004 01:53:18 PM · #276 |
Originally posted by micknewton:
If they felt the need to move on because they werenât appreciated enough or challenged enough without special challenges just for them, then maybe this is no longer the place for them. This is a very small pond, and thereâs a whole big ocean out there where they can find all the competition they can handle, and then some. |
Even ignoring your attempts at insults, that's all well and good that you think the successful users should leave - but would you care to explain how that is to the good if the site ? I still contend that the Masters challenges are of more value to all of the users and voters, than they actually are to any of the entrants. I make no claims of fountains of knowledge or any of your other sarcastic comments, but looking at good pictures is a good way to improve your photography. It is probably better for your photography than looking at a lot of bad pictures. Who knows, you might be inspired.
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11/02/2004 02:00:31 PM · #277 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I'm just wondering, for the Masters, what was the benefit of not having all of the other members participate?
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There is some value in having your entry considered as a deliberate, serious attempt at a good photo. In many cases I've entered pictures in open or members challenges and had long comments trying to explain how to fix something that was entirely deliberate or explaining how something that I 'overlooked' was a 'mistake', again when it wasn't overlooked and was intentional. There is a tendency in the masters challenge to at least assume everything in the image you are looking at is at least there for a reason.
So there is at least a level of credibility to an entry in the masters challenge, that is not always applied in the open or members challenges, especially if the image doesn't conform to the standard, chocolate box collection of composition style cues.
As a result there is perhaps more opportunity to try things slightly different to the norm, with an expectation of at least serious consideration. Now, just because it is different, doesn't mean it is good, but it is good to at least be looked at and maybe it might cause the commenter to think twice about something and give them a new idea too - thus everyone wins.
There is a potential benefit of a more focused field, encouraging more of the masters to enter. This might up the stakes, concentrating the field and raising the bar in general. There are at least a couple of previous winners who mentioned that they only enter masters challenges.
I'm not certain for example that we often have 69 of the people considered 'masters' entering any given challenge. Personally I know I tend to avoid open challenges because I mostly dislike the editing restrictions.
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 14:14:53.
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11/02/2004 02:04:59 PM · #278 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Hey micknewton maybe, just maybe you could learn something from the Masters challenge? Maybe learn a different way of composing a photo or get some inspiration ..the list is endless.
Isn't that a single good reason? |
I've often heard the argument (e.g., in response to whether we should have free study's monthy) that "there's lots of other sites which cater to 'no topic' photography."
I'll answer this the same way: I can go to MANY other sites, for free, where there are many many fine art photographers and view their work and critique. Some examples: photopoints.com, usefilm.com, and even photosig.com. On photosig, I even have my critiques rated by others as to whether they agree with it. Check out the photos of the month on Photopoints if you want to see some really excellent works. Feel free to learn by commenting on them.
In addition, there are many fine professional fine art photography sites out there that I can view and even offer critiques. I confess I haven't done enough of that.
I belong to DPC to participate mainly as a photographer. I will learn more about impressionism by actively studying first, then trying to apply it in a photograph, than I will by viewing the finished works of others who have done that. That was the basis of my challenge suggestion, if you read the description, which was for everyone to go out and learn something about impressionism and apply it.
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11/02/2004 02:10:01 PM · #279 |
| In the past, there have been many discussions about seperating DPCers by ability. These have always been controversial. I have personally been against this idea. The idea of regular 'masters' challenges seems to be a backdoor way to start segregating DPCers by ability. I think this is not a good thing. Look at all the past threads for arguments placed for and against this idea. |
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11/02/2004 02:11:15 PM · #280 |
I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather get rated a 5 in a pool of amazing artists, then a 10 in a pool of mediocre. This is not to offend those who have not won yet - me included. I don't want to win by default.
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11/02/2004 02:13:55 PM · #281 |
Excellent post, Gordon! Thank you...
I have made my decision...drum roll, please...(as if it makes a difference)...and now, ladies and gentlemen...my opinion:
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I think the Master's challenge benefits the Masters and voters/viewers enough that they should continue. I believe that they should be limited to be a quarterly event and that 3 ribbons should be required to be eligible. I also believe that more technical and artistic information should be required from the photographers when submitting their photo to be eligible for entry so that others may learn. I hope to be able to participate in these challenges in the future...
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11/02/2004 02:14:11 PM · #282 |
I am one of the ones who feel that the point of the separate challenge is missed if the same, entire site can vote on it - just not enter. I would have thought only the "masters" could vote, or why have it? Same disclaimer as Thatcloudthere - just honestly wondering - not provoking.
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11/02/2004 02:17:07 PM · #283 |
Originally posted by Kylie:
I am one of the ones who feel that the point of the separate challenge is missed if the same, entire site can vote on it - just not enter. I would have thought only the "masters" could vote, or why have it? Same disclaimer as Thatcloudthere - just honestly wondering - not provoking. |
If possible, I would absolutely love these statistics from the last Master's challenge:
Avg vote by Masters:
Avg vote by everyone else:
I would love to see the final order of the photos based only on the Master votes (those who entered and those who didn't)...
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 14:17:35.
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11/02/2004 02:17:15 PM · #284 |
Originally posted by mk:
When people start off their posts by saying "I didn't read anything else but..." I always wonder why they expect people to read what they've written. |
I didn't care if they read it or not. Just felt like saying it and was bored with reading the same complaint over and over again. But thanks for the laugh =) |
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11/02/2004 02:40:43 PM · #285 |
Originally posted by Kylie:
I am one of the ones who feel that the point of the separate challenge is missed if the same, entire site can vote on it - just not enter. I would have thought only the "masters" could vote, or why have it? Same disclaimer as Thatcloudthere - just honestly wondering - not provoking. |
Part of the reason everyone needs to vote is so that you get the chance to learn. How can you learn if you aren't in a position to look at the image and have your commentary count?
Clara
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11/02/2004 02:52:47 PM · #286 |
Originally posted by blemt:
[quote=Kylie] I am one of the ones who feel that the point of the separate challenge is missed if the same, entire site can vote on it - just not enter. I would have thought only the "masters" could vote, or why have it? Same disclaimer as Thatcloudthere - just honestly wondering - not provoking. |
Part of the reason everyone needs to vote is so that you get the chance to learn. How can you learn if you aren't in a position to look at the image and have your commentary count?
Kylie's comment starts here (idiot mistake by Kylie in the posting code): I hope I can clarify this correctly. The masters' work can be learned from in all challenges, as well as everyone's, by viewing them, formulating an opinion, expressing yourself privately or publicly. I thought the masters were wanting an arena to compete against "their own". If so, I would think they would want to be scored by those same people with what is percieved to be of a more evolved "taste". Otherwise, they are still being "brought down" by the full spectrum of tastes and evolution here at DPC. THIS IS NOT AN OPINION - it is a line of reasoning I am trying to grasp. Does this clarify what I brought up a little better?
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 14:55:16.
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11/02/2004 04:19:57 PM · #287 |
Originally posted by Refracted:
It's ok for "masters" to feel alienated and leave the site because it's not challenging, but it's not ok for "regular" members to feel alienated by a new challenge made for "masters".. am i the only one seeing the contradiction here? |
There is no contradiction because they are two different things. One is a small minority of members who may have outgrown the site and want it changed to better suit themselves, and the other is a small group of members that want what they paid forâi.e. a level playing field where they can enter and have at least a chance at winning any challenge.
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11/02/2004 04:30:09 PM · #288 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Hey micknewton maybe, just maybe you could learn something from the Masters challenge? Maybe learn a different way of composing a photo or get some inspiration ..the list is endless. |
Sure, I can learn something from the masters challenge, and I can learn just as easily if their photos were in a regular challenge. Iâve also learned a lot from the much larger population of non-masters.
Originally posted by jonpink:
Isn't that a single good reason? |
Not to me it isnât. Why alienate some members when we can gain just as much without these special segregated challenges?
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11/02/2004 04:34:01 PM · #289 |
Originally posted by micknewton:
...the other is a small group of members that want what they paid forâi.e. a level playing field where they can enter and have at least a chance at winning any challenge. |
Where does it promise you that in membership? What you paid for is:
Submit to Members-Only Challenges
Personal Portfolio with 10mb of Storage
Sell prints of your photographs on DPCPrints
Inexpensive personal photo-finishing
On-Demand Score Updates
Banner-Free Site Browsing
Members-Only Forum Discussion
All Basic Membership Features
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11/02/2004 04:37:35 PM · #290 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
A lot of people (at least myself) have been totally turned off by the name calling that happened earlier in this thread. I wasn't actively participating, so didn't take it personally, but I believe calling people "whiners" is name calling and I was surprised the site council participated in the discussion and yet didnt step in. |
I did notice the name calling also! I also noticed that those that were doing this were not truly participating in the discussion and only made one post! I've been actively trying to figure out why this added challenge is a bad thing by asking 'why' repeatedly. I've only been answered once!
On a personal note, I do feel for YOU because you suggested the topic and are unable to participate. However, I don't think that this is a reason to abolish the challenge...
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11/02/2004 04:38:17 PM · #291 |
Originally posted by mk:
Where does it promise you that in membership? |
I think mick is referring to the assumptions that were made when he signed up, which I think is understandable to a degree...Nowhere did it say that the website would be in English when I signed up, but I'd be upset if I showed up one day and everything was Hebrew!
This is by no means a flawless comparison, just using an extreme example to show that the terms of agreement are legally what we signed up for but we also signed up to a culture, a website...
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11/02/2004 04:39:52 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I also think the SC and admin have a responsibility to move the site in a positive direction for the majority, in some cases even inspite of complaints from some of the existing users. This isn't nor ever was, a democracy, or even a representative republic. |
My point exactly!
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11/02/2004 04:45:29 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I also think the SC and admin have a responsibility to move the site in a positive direction for the majority, in some cases even inspite of complaints from some of the existing users.
This isn't nor ever was, a democracy, or even a representative republic. |
I'm not sure how the second statement supports the first (not being a democracy would relinquish any responsibility that the SC and admin have to do anything with this site)...that being said, it's in their best interest to keep users happy. Gauge the market and react accordingly...
Keeping most users happy (while being able to recruit new ones) is likely the end goal of those who run this site, democracy or not...
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 16:46:15.
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11/02/2004 04:51:58 PM · #294 |
Originally posted by micknewton:
Originally posted by Gordon:
You claimed it was self evident that it was unpopular. Back it up. |
That I did not do. That is you putting words in my mouth. Actually, I think it is popular with many, and obviously unpopular with some. |
Did you not say:
Originally posted by micknewton:
Why, when it is obviously doing more harm than good, is the 'masters only' thing being continued? |
I believe that is you putting words in your mouth...
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11/02/2004 04:51:59 PM · #295 |
I want to pose a question?
If Masters are so much better than us, dirtdiggers? why did so many ribbon winners finish below 100 mark in implied lines??
Were they just giving us a chance?
If they really were that bad, why do they get to have their own challenge? Surely the best photo on the day wins the challenge, whether Master or not...so why the distinction?? |
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11/02/2004 04:53:37 PM · #296 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Nowhere did it say that the website would be in English when I signed up, but I'd be upset if I showed up one day and everything was Hebrew!
This is by no means a flawless comparison... |
You're right it's far from flawless, because if it would be a good comparison you'd show up one day and suddenly everything was in Hebrew! ..... and English! Amazing, support for two languages. How... useful
And I thought the politics rants got me all worked up...
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11/02/2004 04:55:50 PM · #297 |
Originally posted by micknewton:
If they felt the need to move on because they werenât appreciated enough or challenged enough without special challenges just for them, then maybe this is no longer the place for them. This is a very small pond, and thereâs a whole big ocean out there where they can find all the competition they can handle, and then some. |
If I recall correctly, the idea for the original challenge was a collaboration between blemt and one of the site council members. The masters did not request it, demand it, or threaten to leave if it wasn't enacted...
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11/02/2004 04:57:56 PM · #298 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I have to take exception to the implication that I do not care for this community. That is just plain wrong. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother with any of this discussion, I wouldn't want the community to grow, change and evolve into something better. I would much rather a few disgruntled and childish members leave than to have this community that I care about turn stagnant and wither on the vine. I'd hate to see DPC degenerate because the best of its memebers are not rewarded occasionally with a showcase for their talents and they leave to pursue their interests elsewhere. Is that what you want? Stagnation? |
My point exactly!
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11/02/2004 05:05:50 PM · #299 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by micknewton:
If they felt the need to move on because they werenât appreciated enough or challenged enough without special challenges just for them, then maybe this is no longer the place for them. This is a very small pond, and thereâs a whole big ocean out there where they can find all the competition they can handle, and then some. |
Even ignoring your attempts at insults, that's all well and good that you think the successful users should leave - but would you care to explain how that is to the good if the site ? I still contend that the Masters challenges are of more value to all of the users and voters, than they actually are to any of the entrants. I make no claims of fountains of knowledge or any of your other sarcastic comments, but looking at good pictures is a good way to improve your photography. It is probably better for your photography than looking at a lot of bad pictures. Who knows, you might be inspired. |
I have not insulted you Gordon, unless you think that Iâm insulting you when I express an opinion contradictory to your own. If thatâs the case then you should get over it quick. And, I never said that you or anybody else had made any âclaims of fountains of knowledge.â In fact I donât remember even mentioning you personally at all. My âhubrisâ comment was sarcasm directed at the whole idea of the masters challenges. I find the idea that simply winning a couple of photo popularity contests makes one a âmasterâ of photography a bit ludicrous.
I also never said that I âthink the successful users should leave.â Calm down a bit and read what I actually posted. Itâs in the above quote. I donât want anyone to leave, but Iâd rather see the few that are dissatisfied with the site (for whatever reason) leave than those that feel alienated because the site was changed to better suit a small minority.
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11/02/2004 05:05:52 PM · #300 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
not being a democracy would relinquish any responsibility that the SC and admin have to do anything with this site |
Actually, I don't this is a true statement at all. All it means is that the general body of users don't get to vote on every and any change. There are many forms of leadership where those in charge have responsibility without being voted for.
full article
Aristotle distinguishes between good and bad forms of ruling, whether it be rule by one, a few, or many. For him, democracy is not the best form of government. As is also true of oligarchy and tyranny, rule in democracy is for and by the people named in the government type. In democracy, rule is by and for the needy. In contrast, rule of law or aristocracy (literally, rule of the best) or even monarchy, where the ruler has the interest of his country at heart, are better types of government, according to Aristotle.
Web sites tend to usually be akin to monarchies, with the site owner being the sole and absolute ruler, for example. This has a whole load of elitist baggage that I'm not actually trying to bring in to the discussion and this is all a fairly major tangent from the original thread.
I'm certainly not claiming those who qualify as masters as are anything
to do with this ruling group, either.
Message edited by author 2004-11-02 17:15:00.
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