Be very clear and don't deal with managers

Sony E 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 PZ OSS

10/05/2004 11:40:38 AM · #1

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Edit/Update: Managers aren't as evil as I initially perceived. Lesson learned.

Message edited by author 2005-02-16 12:42:59.

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6400

10/05/2004 11:53:08 AM · #2

That sucks.

I don't know about you, but I would back out on their CD party and tell them that their manager's photos will suffice. Unless they are paying you a nice fee for the shoot, tell them to get lost...

You are right about the creative vision part. When someone hires a photographer for stuff like this, that is part of what they are buying. If they don't use your shots and stand behind you with their own cameras, they are 'stealing' your creative vision by photographing your setups.

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

10/05/2004 12:00:13 PM · #3

I would take that as a huge lesson as people will always want to get something for free.

Firstly I would never agree to do anything for free or on a pay-if-you-like-it-deal, I usually charge a main fee for doing the photographs and then a smaller one on top for processing - burning and delivery etc. That way they are committed to paying even if they dislike what you have done.

Secondly, well you can't stop someone from taking photographs, but I would have basically asked why he was taking photographs if he was employing me to do that.

Thirdly if they are using your photos without permission on the CD then threaten them - also inform the models etc and say you will represent them -get your own back. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they make it even ;)

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0 L USM

10/05/2004 12:03:15 PM · #4

There are crappy people all over. I wouldn't limit it to just managers and I wouldn't consider all managers crappy people.

If it were me I'd hunt down the bikini women and tell them they deserve to get paid for having their picture posted on advertising material.

phraid2002

Canon EOS-10D

Canon EF 28-90mm f/4-5.6 II USM (Black)

10/05/2004 12:03:51 PM · #5

The lesson that I have learned in the past and this talk to this point . . .
No other camera's on the set. NADA, nil, ziltch . . .
I did a few shoot when a camera showed from behind me. I politely decline the use of them since it will "interfere" with the lighting system (I use light slaves on most of my lights). It usually works.

The point is well taken, the photo shoot is not a spectacle and all that are present should have a reason to be there.

Also, in a contract you can stipulate that the recreation of the setup of the photoshoot or the use of the images resembling the photoshoot will be considered an infrigement on the copyright of the work. It may not have teeth but it sure make people think . . .
ADDED:
I would go back the bikini models and tell them that their images have been used without consent and that the photo used was not yours. CYA should they come back to you for compensation.

My heart goes to you . . .

Best of luck

Fred

Message edited by author 2004-10-05 12:08:28.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

10/05/2004 12:27:31 PM · #6

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Message edited by author 2005-02-16 12:39:53.

David.C

10/05/2004 01:53:48 PM · #7

No disrespect meant, but the manager is a paid representative of the band -- his actions are to be taken as being made on behalf of the band. If they didn't know about the photo being used, he has successfully set them up for legal problems -- if the girls sue, it will be the band they sue. They will likely have to deal with that lawsuit and then try and get compensation (should they loose, which is guite likely) in a seperate lawsuit against the manager. Also, by continuing the work for them after being made aware of the managers lack of ethics, could conceivable open you up for problems as well.

I'm no lawyer, but I would suggest distancing yourself from them as long as the manager is still there (or at least still behaving in an unethical manner), and send a formal letter of complaint to his office demanding it be made right -- the last thing you want (should it go to court) is for there to have been a public confrontation between the two of you.

Regardless of what your friends knew before the fact, they know it now. It is up to them to 'do the right thing' with regard to the models and also with regards to the insult they have (perhaps, inadvertantly) given you. In my book, friends would never think of doing anything less.

David

saintaugust

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

10/05/2004 01:58:35 PM · #8

let's see one of these photos!
please?

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L USM

10/05/2004 02:02:57 PM · #9

I can't believe this guy would put up posters of the band with the bikini girls, considering the girls didn't agree to be displayed on every other lightpole wearing next to nothing.

That's extremely unprofessional...

saintaugust

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

10/05/2004 02:04:29 PM · #10

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

on the other hand, we don't know the agreement these 'models' had with the band or manager. maybe they agreed to do it, they must've known their pictures might've been distributed.. they can't be that dumb..

can they?

Gil P

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM

10/05/2004 02:08:22 PM · #11

Yeah, how is it known that the girls had no prior arrangement... in fact, if they were hired via an "event modeling" agency...they already have a contractual agreement for photography just like the girls you'll see standing next to cars or machinery at trade shows... their contract stipulates that they will be subject to photography, commercial and amateur.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L USM

10/05/2004 02:15:45 PM · #12

Originally posted by Gil P:

Because GoldBerry wrote "The girls werent' 'model's. THey were just girls who were suntanning in the park we were shooting."

pcody

Canon PowerShot G6

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

10/05/2004 02:16:29 PM · #13

I'd be concerned because you were the "official" photographer. For all anyone else knows, you told that guy to grab the pictures while you were busy taking other photos. And you did take a couple yourself.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0 L USM

10/05/2004 02:16:50 PM · #14

Originally posted by saintaugust:

.. they can't be that dumb..

can they?

Never underestimate the potential of human stupidity

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0 L IS

10/05/2004 02:26:02 PM · #15

That sucks, but it happens all the time. The manager of Steppenwolf ("Born to be Wild") once called me out of the blue to create an album cover for them. I was pretty psyched until he asked me to design several different looks, each involving complex illustrations, and then if they liked anything I'd get paid. Bye bye!

Another time, a client walked into our office with a box full of slides we had created for their company presentation. They wanted a refund for the slides they didn't end up using. How's that for nerve?

Gil P

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM

10/05/2004 02:28:30 PM · #16

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by Gil P:
Yeah, how is it known that the girls had no prior arrangement... in fact, if they were hired via an "event modeling" agency...they already have a contractual agreement for photography just like the girls you'll see standing next to cars or machinery at trade shows... their contract stipulates that they will be subject to photography, commercial and amateur.

Because GoldBerry wrote "The girls werent' 'model's. THey were just girls who were suntanning in the park we were shooting."

Ooops My bad...a bit too much of lateral reading. apologies.

saintaugust

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

10/05/2004 02:35:00 PM · #17

Originally posted by Gil P:

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by Gil P:
Yeah, how is it known that the girls had no prior arrangement... in fact, if they were hired via an "event modeling" agency...they already have a contractual agreement for photography just like the girls you'll see standing next to cars or machinery at trade shows... their contract stipulates that they will be subject to photography, commercial and amateur.

Because GoldBerry wrote "The girls werent' 'model's. THey were just girls who were suntanning in the park we were shooting."

my apologies too.
oopsie!

Ooops My bad...a bit too much of lateral reading. apologies.

10/05/2004 03:22:04 PM · #18

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Message edited by author 2005-02-16 12:40:29.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

10/05/2004 03:23:26 PM · #19

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Message edited by author 2005-02-16 12:41:03.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

10/05/2004 06:13:04 PM · #20

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

I thought it was wrong since they were half naked.

Why is having half naked girls around wrong? As long as they are wearing a swimsuit or other similar clothing, and they are OK with that, what is the problem?

annasense

Olympus E-500 EVOLT

Olympus 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 Zuiko Digital ED

10/05/2004 06:58:43 PM · #21

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

Originally posted by saintaugust:
let's see one of these photos!
please?

They're not online or anything yet and I'm not a member so I can't post them...I don't think. They're a whacky band so we did whacky stuff [not the typical band shots]...I like them a lot at least.

here's the band's site which isn't done yet:
POLYJESTERS Ka-Chunk!

What fun music! I might have to buy that CD! You've got great taste! :)

Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to take it off-topic. :)

Message edited by author 2004-10-05 19:07:12.

10/05/2004 09:28:19 PM · #22

sorry, duplicate post

Message edited by author 2005-02-16 12:42:44.

10/05/2004 09:29:10 PM · #23

Cool, glad you like it :-) Their shows are just out of this world. They're very creative. They take requests and play whatever even if they've never done it before.

Message edited by author 2005-02-16 12:44:10.