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05/21/2015 08:01:27 PM · #276 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
You've said over and over that you expect the rules and standards found in the legal system to apply to the relationship between the teams, players and the NFL. They don't. |
You are most definitely right that they don't. For that matter, they do not even to begin to meet the most rudimentary rules governing any actions were sanctions are meted out.
I have no idea as to how well versed you are with "the ethic of reciprocity" but it is a concept that has been around for a longer time than courts have been around.
Unfortunately, in this instance it does not appear that the decision makers took that into consideration and opted to mete out a harsh penalty based on questionable evidence.
Ray
Message edited by author 2015-05-21 20:17:48. |
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05/21/2015 08:46:39 PM · #277 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
You've said over and over that you expect the rules and standards found in the legal system to apply to the relationship between the teams, players and the NFL. They don't. |
You are most definitely right that they don't. For that matter, they do not even to begin to meet the most rudimentary rules governing any actions were sanctions are meted out.
I have no idea as to how well versed you are with "the ethic of reciprocity" but it is a concept that has been around for a longer time than courts have been around.
Unfortunately, in this instance it does not appear that the decision makers took that into consideration and opted to mete out a harsh penalty based on questionable evidence.
Ray |
Then why do you keep insisting that they should?
The ONLY rules governing these sanctions are defined in the contractual agreements that all parties agreed to beforehand. None of the rest of the stuff you're talking about matters unless the contract is invalid. It may be a shitty deal, but all parties agreed to it. The time for "buyer's remorse" has long since passed. |
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05/21/2015 09:46:14 PM · #278 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
It may be a shitty deal, but all parties agreed to it. The time for "buyer's remorse" has long since passed. |
So the horrible method of this investigation should be repeated over and over without change, and that should be fine? Sure Bob Kraft, the Patriot's owner accepted the findings for whatever secret back room deal he was offered, but for those who consume the product the game puts forward, it is a bad deal. Should we accept what passes for justice in the NFL because the teams all signed up for a rigged game? When Ray Rice was suspended 2 games for punching out a woman in an elevator, we should have accepted that finding because that was what the NFL decided was a fair punishment? The notion that because they are a closed system of investigation and justice that the general public has to accept the horror show of what the NFL calls due diligence is a crock.
Message edited by author 2015-05-21 21:50:21. |
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05/21/2015 10:55:16 PM · #279 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Spork99:
It may be a shitty deal, but all parties agreed to it. The time for "buyer's remorse" has long since passed. |
So the horrible method of this investigation should be repeated over and over without change, and that should be fine? Sure Bob Kraft, the Patriot's owner accepted the findings for whatever secret back room deal he was offered, but for those who consume the product the game puts forward, it is a bad deal. Should we accept what passes for justice in the NFL because the teams all signed up for a rigged game? When Ray Rice was suspended 2 games for punching out a woman in an elevator, we should have accepted that finding because that was what the NFL decided was a fair punishment? The notion that because they are a closed system of investigation and justice that the general public has to accept the horror show of what the NFL calls due diligence is a crock. |
No, but they all agreed to it, didn't they? Blame all parties for agreeing to the shitty deal. The time to deal with this was when they were negotiating, not after the fact.
The public doesn't have to accept anything, their power is in not supporting the shitty deal and the idiots who signed it by not supporting the game. The NFL knows that no matter how pissed off people are, they'll still tune in and buy stuff, making them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Don't like it? Don't support it.
Message edited by author 2015-05-22 08:00:20. |
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05/21/2015 11:15:49 PM · #280 |
If you think Ray Rice being originally suspended for only two games is a knock on the league, consider that all criminal charges were dropped today in New Jersey. A rather well-built man punched his female fiance into unconsciousness and dragged her out of an elevator and dropped her to the ground like a rag doll. On video. All felony domestic violence charges dropped.
He actually received a harsher penalty from the NFL than he did in real life. Stuff is very broken. |
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05/22/2015 08:08:25 AM · #281 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
they'll still tune in and buy stuff, making them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Don't like it? Don't support it. |
Really? I'm not a pats fans, guess who probably wont be tuning in to see their backup QB play. This guy. That's not a protest, that opening nationally televised game just lost all its luster for me. |
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05/22/2015 08:13:15 AM · #282 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
they'll still tune in and buy stuff, making them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Don't like it? Don't support it. |
Really? I'm not a pats fans, guess who probably wont be tuning in to see their backup QB play. This guy. That's not a protest, that opening nationally televised game just lost all its luster for me. |
You'll still watch football, still buy stuff with an NFL team logo on it...and so on. You'll still make the league money. |
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05/22/2015 08:40:49 AM · #283 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
they'll still tune in and buy stuff, making them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Don't like it? Don't support it. |
Really? I'm not a pats fans, guess who probably wont be tuning in to see their backup QB play. This guy. That's not a protest, that opening nationally televised game just lost all its luster for me. |
You'll still watch football, still buy stuff with an NFL team logo on it...and so on. You'll still make the league money. |
of course, but the advertisers will be paying less for the commercial spots if overall viewership goes down. I imagine that that puts a bigger dent in the pocket books then buying some NFL merchandise. |
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05/22/2015 09:11:53 AM · #284 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
they'll still tune in and buy stuff, making them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Don't like it? Don't support it. |
Really? I'm not a pats fans, guess who probably wont be tuning in to see their backup QB play. This guy. That's not a protest, that opening nationally televised game just lost all its luster for me. |
You'll still watch football, still buy stuff with an NFL team logo on it...and so on. You'll still make the league money. |
of course, but the advertisers will be paying less for the commercial spots if overall viewership goes down. I imagine that that puts a bigger dent in the pocket books then buying some NFL merchandise. |
That's my point. The only way for the public to drive change is by voting with their time and dollars. Don't watch the games, don't buy the branded merchandise. Oh, and make sure the league and the team know WHY their fan support has drooped by one.
Message edited by author 2015-05-22 10:43:19. |
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05/22/2015 09:53:35 AM · #285 |
Here's a nicely written piece. And from the looks of the author's bio at the end it's been ghost-written by our very own  DJWoodward. |
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05/22/2015 10:33:00 AM · #286 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
they'll still tune in and buy stuff, making them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Don't like it? Don't support it. |
Really? I'm not a pats fans, guess who probably wont be tuning in to see their backup QB play. This guy. That's not a protest, that opening nationally televised game just lost all its luster for me. |
You'll still watch football, still buy stuff with an NFL team logo on it...and so on. You'll still make the league money. |
of course, but the advertisers will be paying less for the commercial spots if overall viewership goes down. I imagine that that puts a bigger dent in the pocket books then buying some NFL merchandise. |
That's my point. The only way for the public to drive change is by voting with their time and dollars. Don't watch the games, don't buy the branded merchandise. |
no, you said people wont do any of that, I'm saying they will by using myself as an example. Fans will support their teams but casual fans wont watch unless the game is compelling, which it wont be without its best players. that is what makes this whole sting operation dumb, the NFL should care about its bottom line more than it cares about making its commissioner look tough. They should have quietly told teams to stop these shenanigans instead of publicly tar and feathering a team and player for spectacle. My enjoyment of the sport is diminished because the commissioner cant figure out how to run the league the right way. |
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05/22/2015 10:50:21 AM · #287 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
they'll still tune in and buy stuff, making them hundreds of millions of dollars.
Don't like it? Don't support it. |
Really? I'm not a pats fans, guess who probably wont be tuning in to see their backup QB play. This guy. That's not a protest, that opening nationally televised game just lost all its luster for me. |
You'll still watch football, still buy stuff with an NFL team logo on it...and so on. You'll still make the league money. |
of course, but the advertisers will be paying less for the commercial spots if overall viewership goes down. I imagine that that puts a bigger dent in the pocket books then buying some NFL merchandise. |
That's my point. The only way for the public to drive change is by voting with their time and dollars. Don't watch the games, don't buy the branded merchandise. |
no, you said people wont do any of that, I'm saying they will by using myself as an example. Fans will support their teams but casual fans wont watch unless the game is compelling, which it wont be without its best players. that is what makes this whole sting operation dumb, the NFL should care about its bottom line more than it cares about making its commissioner look tough. They should have quietly told teams to stop these shenanigans instead of publicly tar and feathering a team and player for spectacle. My enjoyment of the sport is diminished because the commissioner cant figure out how to run the league the right way. |
I know people WILL keep watching and most importantly, spending. That's why the league can get away with what they're doing, their revenue won't drop.
The only way people can send a message to the league that will get traction is to take action that does reduce revenue and make sure the league and the teams know why. My confidence in this happening on a scale that gets noticed is extremely low.
It's the difference between what people should do and what they will do. |
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05/22/2015 11:35:06 AM · #288 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I can tell you it is VERY easy to let the air out of a soccer ball. Get a needle, insert until you hear air, remove. Just did it this weekend when we decided the ball was too inflated for our game. Took a few seconds. |
Really? Some day I'm going to come up to Oregon. I will bring a nice bottle of wine and a bag of 20 inflatable balls. We will run an experiment. You think you could walk into a room, shut the door, open up the bag of 20 balls, select out 10 of them, deflate them those ten, put them back in the bag and walk out the door in 90 seconds. I don't think it is possible. There would be a bottle of wine in it for you if you could. I'm certain I could measure all the balls in that bag in less than 13 minutes.
Of course the NFL could have done a time and motion study to see if it was possible. If they had tested it (as it would have been in any real investigtion) they certainly did not make it part of the report. You imagine it is possible, I imagine it is not.
Yes it is clear that there was a discrepancy between the subsets of measurements. You are a man of science Doc; do you see anything wrong with the chart? Does the inability to get an accurate reading on the actual PSI on the balls bother you? Does the fact that there was no record of the order that the measurements were taken in seem odd? If it turned out that the curve of the rise of the PSI was in direct correlation to how long they had been in the warm dry environment of the locker room, would that be important?
Prioleau’s measurements were, in PSI: (1) 11.8; (2) 11.2; (3) 11.5; (4) 11.0; (5) 11.45; (6) 11.95; (7) 12.3; (8) 11.55; (9) 11.35; (10) 10.9; and (11) 11.35.
Blakeman’s measurements were, also in PSI: (1) 11.5; (2) 10.85; (3) 11.15; (4) 10.7; (5) 11.1; (6) 11.6; (7) 11.85; (8) 11.1; (9) 10.95; (10) 10.5; and (11) 10.9.
We do know that the Clots ball were measured last since those were the ones that were being measured when they "ran out of time". But the rest is guessing.
The spread between measurements of the same ball is enough that I thought it would make a case very shaky, and the fact that we have a subset of 4 Colts balls even measured (75% of which were underinflated by one gauge) makes the case that much weaker. Further complicating matters for the NFL is the lack of clear evidence that the starting point for each ball was 12.5 PSI. Given that the NFL was aware of the issue before the game began, it’s stunning that a record of the measurements wasn’t made.
The entire case is speculation, and there probably was an intent to gain an advantage. We all know Belichick is willing to flat out cheat to gain an advantage, But the Wells report did nothing but gather up all the speculation and cast a prosecutorial light on the speculation in the most slanted possible way.
Lastly there is the question of cheating. Cheating is defined as "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination." When New England is alleged to have been cheating they gained a 17-7 advantage, after that alleged cheat was removed they gained a 28-0 advantage.
I understand that I would probably want to see the Patriots taken down if they had beaten my team on the way to the Superbowl win, but this sloppy form of justice is bad for football. |
You definitely need to come up to Oregon, but you don't need to bring the wine because we have some awesome wine up here already. Drinking some, however, may be a good idea pre-challenge. :)
As far as timing goes, yes, I think it can be done. Especially with practice.
The Pats balls and Colts balls are not going to be mixed in the same bag. So we don't need to worry about that.
Kicking balls and playing balls are probably also separated, but I'm not as sure about this. I will link a video below of officials checking game balls (at another game). The bags don't look like they fit 20 balls.
Assuming worst case scenario that the kicking balls and playing balls are mixed, the kicking balls are still marked clearly by the official (see the "L" mark in the video). One would pull a ball, check for the mark, put aside if present, insert needle for 1-2 seconds if not, put aside. Repeat. Load balls at end.
As far as the chart goes, a few thoughts from this "man of science". :)
First, the gauges seems to be both acceptably accurate and precise. I note that the difference between the two gauges is identical for all measurements (about 0.2 PSI or about 1.6% of the total measurement of interest).
Second, I see the spread between the highest and lowest pressure for each team is different. The Patriots balls are much more varied and "random" while the Colts balls are much tighter. Assuming that the effect of any gas law is similar across all the balls, one can speculate the starting pressure of the Patriots balls varied much more widely than the Colts balls. I think it is reasonable to say that if a team is playing within the bounds of the rules but likes the balls at the minimum pressure allowed, they are all going to start with the same pressure of 12.5 PSI. The range from highest to lowest PSI is 1.5 pounds. This, to me, is much more consistent with someone just "letting some air out", but doing it quickly and not checking pressure after.
Third, the lack of record before the games is not "stunning" but the normal procedure. The referee checks the balls, inflates them if necessary, and says "ok". Either they had no concept that someone might be cheating (what the crew knows and what the NFL knows could be totally separate), or knew but carried out business as usual to either not raise suspicion or because they, again, didn't think someone was really going to attempt something. See the video again.
Fourth, assuming the Ideal Gas Law equally affects all balls (and coming up with theories of how the balls would be subjected differently is as much speculation as anything else) and assuming the Colts balls were not tampered with, it looks like the spread between the starting pressure and the lower gauge is about 0.6 or 0.7 PSI. This would explain only one of eleven Pats balls. So, to say everything is on the up and up, we need a theory as to how the balls were affected differently, and while I'm sure we could come up with some, they are, as mentioned, speculation.
That's the way I see it anyway.
Here's that video. It was part of a MMQB piece before DeflateGate was ever thought of. Note the bags (with team logo). Note the kicking ball mark. Note the size of the bag. Could be helpful in us getting an idea of what would be necessary to pull the caper off in 90 seconds.
Message edited by author 2015-05-22 11:52:21. |
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05/22/2015 11:39:54 AM · #289 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
The only way people can send a message to the league that will get traction is to take action that does reduce revenue and make sure the league and the teams know why. My confidence in this happening on a scale that gets noticed is extremely low.
It's the difference between what people should do and what they will do. |
not entirely true, Race Rice as a case in point, the NFL reversed course after the massive public outcry. |
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05/22/2015 12:25:37 PM · #290 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Here's a nicely written piece. And from the looks of the author's bio at the end it's been ghost-written by our very own DJWoodward. |
I particularly like the penultimate paragraph ... though I have that uncomfortable Deja vu feeling (coincidence?) that we've had a very similar discussion before ...
Originally posted by Linked Article:
I would reiterate here that I believe there was some jiggery-pokery done to the footballs used in the first half of the AFC Championship mismatch, and that it beggars belief that the quarterback didn’t know anything about it. I also would reiterate here that the whole fiasco has been such a self-evident waste of time, and money, and media attention that it’s hard to believe Donald Trump doesn’t have a hand in it somewhere. This is something that should have been laughed off the airwaves 15 minutes after the story broke. It was gamesmanship, pure and simple, worthy of a $25,000 fine and a stern letter of reprimand. |
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05/22/2015 01:01:01 PM · #291 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
The only way people can send a message to the league that will get traction is to take action that does reduce revenue and make sure the league and the teams know why. My confidence in this happening on a scale that gets noticed is extremely low.
It's the difference between what people should do and what they will do. |
not entirely true, Race Rice as a case in point, the NFL reversed course after the massive public outcry. |
Yet actual legal charges were dismissed. The RR case put the fear into the NFL that people would stop watching the league if no action was taken. If people could incite that same fear in the league over deflate gate, then I'm sure the league would cave. Of course, being accused of turning a blind eye to beating women is on a whole different level than upsetting a top player's fans.
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05/22/2015 01:15:56 PM · #292 |
The Ray Rice charges were dismissed because he completed a pretrial intervention program ... article
Originally posted by Linked Article:
MAYS LANDING, N.J. (AP) A judge on Thursday dismissed domestic violence charges against Ray Rice, who was captured by a surveillance camera knocking his then-fiancee unconscious in a hotel elevator last year.
Judge Michael Donio signed the order after the Atlantic County prosecutor told him the former Baltimore Ravens running back had completed the terms of his pretrial intervention. |
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05/22/2015 03:51:01 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Here's a nicely written piece. And from the looks of the author's bio at the end it's been ghost-written by our very own DJWoodward. |
LOL, no not me, just a doppelganger |
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06/19/2015 03:45:26 AM · #294 |
I saw this article from the Washington Post yesterday and had to Necro this thread.
"The NFL paid millions for a fundamentally flawed report by lawyer Ted Wells that made Brady and the Patriots out to be slam-dunk guilty, based on more than 100 pages of mathematical analysis of ball pressurization . . . that turns out to be erroneous. The AEI’s report totally rejects the finding that the footballs used by the Patriots in the AFC championship game had a significant drop in air pressure compared with those used by the Colts. But the truly damning sentence is this one, buried in its erudite phrasings and equations: “The Wells report’s statistical analysis cannot be replicated by performing the analysis as described in the report,” the AEI concludes.
Basically, the math didn’t add up. It’s a standard principle in science: If you can’t replicate a set of results, then there is a problem with it. A flaw or a fraud is at work. Either you made a mistake, or you made it up.
When the AEI analysts looked more closely at how such a mistake could have been made, what they found “astonished” them, says the report’s co-author Stan Veuger. The Wells report “relies on an unorthodox statistical procedure at odds with the methodology the report describes.” Translation: The Wells report said it would use one equation but then used a different (and weird) equation to arrive at its numbers.
“It was really clumsy,” Veuger says. “It’s the kind of mistake you’d see in freshman statistics class.”
Another phrase possibly applies to all of this:
Falsifying results."
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06/19/2015 07:06:16 AM · #295 |
We may never get to know the truth about this considering the the Commissioner is the final arbiter in this regard and I seriously doubt that he would agree to accept a report that counters the very report he hung his hat on.
This to me was a comment worthy of consideration: "The AEI analysis suggests that NFL Players Association Executive Director DeMaurice Smith was right when he said the Wells report “delivered exactly what the client wanted.” It suggests that this wasn’t an investigation; it was a frame job by the commissioner’s office desperate to re-establish its authority."
To accept the AEI analysis would be tantamount to an admission that this was indeed a "Frame Job"
Ray |
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06/19/2015 07:49:22 AM · #296 |
 ;-) |
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06/19/2015 05:42:15 PM · #297 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
We may never get to know the truth about this considering the the Commissioner is the final arbiter in this regard and I seriously doubt that he would agree to accept a report that counters the very report he hung his hat on. |
The interesting thing is that the lawyers for Brady are calling on Goodelle and the other folks who managed the Wells report as witnesses. If Goodelle does not agree to recuse himself and be called as a witness, then it will break the arbitration clause and allow all this to be dragged into Federal Court, where he would get whooped. |
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06/19/2015 05:59:28 PM · #298 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
We may never get to know the truth about this considering the the Commissioner is the final arbiter in this regard and I seriously doubt that he would agree to accept a report that counters the very report he hung his hat on. |
The interesting thing is that the lawyers for Brady are calling on Goodelle and the other folks who managed the Wells report as witnesses. If Goodelle does not agree to recuse himself and be called as a witness, then it will break the arbitration clause and allow all this to be dragged into Federal Court, where he would get whooped. |
Will NFL executives have to submit to the concussion protocol after banging their heads on their desks? |
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06/21/2015 08:12:29 PM · #299 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
We may never get to know the truth about this considering the the Commissioner is the final arbiter in this regard and I seriously doubt that he would agree to accept a report that counters the very report he hung his hat on. |
The interesting thing is that the lawyers for Brady are calling on Goodelle and the other folks who managed the Wells report as witnesses. If Goodelle does not agree to recuse himself and be called as a witness, then it will break the arbitration clause and allow all this to be dragged into Federal Court, where he would get whooped. |
Looking forward to the next round.
The Commissioner may very well appear, but methinks that the phrases "I have no recollection of that" may be repeated on several occasions.
Ray |
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06/22/2015 12:24:22 AM · #300 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
... methinks that the phrases "I have no recollection of that" may be repeated on several occasions.
Ray |
He can always attribute that to repeated concussion ... |
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