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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Suggestions >> Food in Black and White
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 09/19/2014 02:28:53 PM · #26
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
What method do you use for the 'selenium' toning?

+1 More details, please.

I submit an occasional b&w entry, but I've apparently been missing out on something good. I'm not familiar with selenium toning. If it's something the Robert and Richard advocate I want in.
 09/19/2014 03:49:52 PM · #27
This discussion again. And again.

Raise your hand if you think a "black and white" darkroom print is pure black and true white.

They're not. Even with modern silver prints, the choice of paper and chemicals will affect the color of the prints. Good printers choose based on the look they want to achieve. The idea that the only "true" black and white images have exactly equal RGB values is a piece of fundamentalist ideology that isn't grounded in any photographic tradition. I agree that the best digital black and white toning tends to be subtle, and I'll vote images lower that are too heavy handed with the toning, or if the toning isn't appropriate to the image. That's not because the process is inherently bad, but because the artistic choice doesn't work for me.

I tone my black and white work as well. I've spent the past year working almost entirely in black and white, and I'm getting pretty good at it. My work looks better toned. I'll change if I can make it look better, but not because of the threat of a few low votes from people with ideas that I disagree with.

BTW, Nik Silver Efex does toning quite nicely as well.
09/19/2014 03:50:26 PM · #28
Originally posted by markwiley:
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
What method do you use for the 'selenium' toning?

+1 More details, please.

I submit an occasional b&w entry, but I've apparently been missing out on something good. I'm not familiar with selenium toning. If it's something the Robert and Richard advocate I want in.


+1 all I know about selenium is it's good for horses' feet. Tell me more about selenium toning!
 09/19/2014 06:36:46 PM · #29
Originally posted by snaffles:
Originally posted by markwiley:
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
What method do you use for the 'selenium' toning?

+1 More details, please.

I submit an occasional b&w entry, but I've apparently been missing out on something good. I'm not familiar with selenium toning. If it's something the Robert and Richard advocate I want in.


+1 all I know about selenium is it's good for horses' feet. Tell me more about selenium toning!


Selenium fact #2. Brazil nuts are a good source.

(Thank you Richard and Robert for the heads up about selenium toning.)
 09/19/2014 10:26:22 PM · #30
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
What method do you use for the 'selenium' toning?

Nik's Silver Efex Pro has extensive (and customizable) toning options. I use their Selenium 1 or Selenium 2 and go from there. The kind of Selenium toning we're talking about is like a steely, very dark blue/black. Once you use it, the "straight" no-tone BW looks insipid.
 09/20/2014 09:48:22 AM · #31
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
What method do you use for the 'selenium' toning?

Nik's Silver Efex Pro has extensive (and customizable) toning options. I use their Selenium 1 or Selenium 2 and go from there. The kind of Selenium toning we're talking about is like a steely, very dark blue/black. Once you use it, the "straight" no-tone BW looks insipid.


aaawe... you said "dark blue/black"... i'm telling Lydia on you... that's not "pure" black and white ;-)

BTW, i do really like the Selenium toning in Silver FX, too!

09/20/2014 11:55:28 AM · #32
Originally posted by mefnj:
aaawe... you said "dark blue/black"... i'm telling Lydia on you... that's not "pure" black and white ;-)

With all due respect to Lydia (she knows I love her) she's being ridiculous. It's been said before, but I'll say it again; there's no such thing as "true black" when it comes to photographic prints or monitor views. ESPECIALLY monitor views, 'cuz we are all calibrated to different standards of cool or warm. Even if I strive to make the image absolutely neutral "by the numbers", that doesn't mean anyone else's monitor is calibrated TO "the numbers", so that's a meaningless criterion.

I can understand (I guess) people not wanting to reward HEAVILY toned images in a "B/W" challenge, but warm blacks vs cool blacks? I just don't see it. It makes no sense to me. The difference between B/W photography and "color" photography isn't drawn by measuring how much the tones deviate from some arbitrary definition of "pure black", but by whether or not the *process* involved can render continuous-tone color imagery. IN the old days, this was a monochromatic negative vs a polychromatic negative: you COULDN'T get continuous-tone color from a monochromatic negative unless you stacked negatives shot with Color filters and printed each one with its complementary ink, which WAS the first color process and is how 4-color printing is done to this day, basically.

But we all know all this, right? And we all know that the history of photography shows all SORTS of variation in tone on these monochromatic images, that all fall under the umbrella of "B/W Photography", right? BTW, this is a selenium toned image, by Eric Lindbloom. A little cooler than mine usually are.



Anyway, I guess if we wanna be silly about things like this, there's no way to stop us, is there?
 09/20/2014 02:02:13 PM · #33
Thank you, Robert... and that is one beautiful b/w image you done showed us.
 09/20/2014 02:19:24 PM · #34
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Thank you, Robert... and that is one beautiful b/w image you done showed us.


I agree, but (ignoring all the well appreciated technical talk about tones, which I like here) this looks like food of the food ;) (grass,cows)
 09/20/2014 02:36:52 PM · #35
Well.... Let me say that I've changed my mind after experimenting with some of the things that have been said by Bear and Ann and others. My black and white images have improved IMHO in just the past couple of days of experimenting by using subtle toning in the manner suggested in this thread. So I guess I am a convert, at least to the extent that it is used in a subtle fashion. Don't know how I've managed to miss this concept/approach in the past, but live and learn...another good reason to be on DPC and follow/participate in the threads.
 09/20/2014 04:18:44 PM · #36
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

With all due respect to Lydia (she knows I love her) she's being ridiculous. It's been said before, but I'll say it again; there's no such thing as "true black" when it comes to photographic prints or monitor views. ESPECIALLY monitor views, 'cuz we are all calibrated to different standards of cool or warm. Even if I strive to make the image absolutely neutral "by the numbers", that doesn't mean anyone else's monitor is calibrated TO "the numbers", so that's a meaningless criterion.

I can understand (I guess) people not wanting to reward HEAVILY toned images in a "B/W" challenge, but warm blacks vs cool blacks? I just don't see it. It makes no sense to me. The difference between B/W photography and "color" photography isn't drawn by measuring how much the tones deviate from some arbitrary definition of "pure black", but by whether or not the *process* involved can render continuous-tone color imagery. IN the old days, this was a monochromatic negative vs a polychromatic negative: you COULDN'T get continuous-tone color from a monochromatic negative unless you stacked negatives shot with Color filters and printed each one with its complementary ink, which WAS the first color process and is how 4-color printing is done to this day, basically.

But we all know all this, right? And we all know that the history of photography shows all SORTS of variation in tone on these monochromatic images, that all fall under the umbrella of "B/W Photography", right? BTW, this is a selenium toned image, by Eric Lindbloom. A little cooler than mine usually are.

...

Anyway, I guess if we wanna be silly about things like this, there's no way to stop us, is there?


"I can understand (I guess) people not wanting to reward HEAVILY toned images in a "B/W" challenge, but warm blacks vs cool blacks? "

I never said anything about subtle tones of blacks. It's really the whites that the Ridiculous One is ridiculously concerned about.

As long as the Ridiculous One cannot see any blatant color tones... the Ridiculous One will consider it Black and White.

The grass image looks Black and White. :D

My ridiculous objection was about a color clearly being in the image.

Like the pink and blue in this gorgeous image that we've already discussed ad nauseam:



And this fabulous Sepia one is also not a Black and White image:



The Ridiculous One just wants to say how she will vote ahead of the start of the challenge so everyone knows that she's apparently ridiculous and will apparently vote ridiculously on an image with obvious color in a Black and White challenge.



Message edited by author 2014-09-20 16:23:34.
 09/20/2014 05:54:26 PM · #37
Well, based on what the ridiculous one just posted, she's not ridiculous after all, so something good has come out of this...

Seriously, it sure SOUNDED like you were gonna ding anything that had even a hint of a tint, Lydia. It's good to know that isn't the case :-)
 09/20/2014 07:18:35 PM · #38
All hail The Ridiculous One! (Would make a great user name, no?)
 09/20/2014 07:48:48 PM · #39
So I had luck with the B&W part, and I shot food. But I suspect know I failed at the 'appetizing' part of the challenge. Can't wait to see how it fairs.
 09/20/2014 08:41:38 PM · #40
Originally posted by snaffles:
All hail The Ridiculous One! (Would make a great user name, no?)

Totally!
 09/20/2014 08:53:23 PM · #41
Originally posted by Jules1x:
So I had luck with the B&W part, and I shot food. But I suspect know I failed at the 'appetizing' part of the challenge. Can't wait to see how it fairs.


ditto...I'm shooting as much food in as many different ways as possible...cooked, raw etc...but though I have tonal ranges I'm very happy with, does it still look good enough to eat in b/w? Kinda like one of those psychologists' experiments where they coloured steaks blue, mashed potatoes green etc. Though the food still looked and tasted perfectly fine, just a few drops of food colouring totally ruined the whole food experience for those who partook in it!
 09/20/2014 09:01:31 PM · #42
Yeah, I don't really get the "appetizing" part. Food in B&W doesn't look particularly appetizing ever.
 09/20/2014 09:29:26 PM · #43
Yeah... I like my entry okay enough... but I keep saying... WHY did I have to ruin it by taking away the color! LOL!
09/20/2014 09:33:04 PM · #44
Originally posted by Lydia:
Yeah... I like my entry okay enough... but I keep saying... WHY did I have to ruin it by taking away the color! LOL!


You could always tone it :)
 09/20/2014 09:37:41 PM · #45
If I wanted to enter a DNMC entry, I'd just leave it all in color. *grin*
 09/20/2014 10:26:05 PM · #46
Originally posted by Garry:
Yeah, I don't really get the "appetizing" part. Food in B&W doesn't look particularly appetizing ever.


I guess that's why this is a "challenge", eh? ;)
 09/20/2014 11:25:13 PM · #47
Well, I'm in.. But honestly have no idea how it will do.. Good luck everyone..
09/20/2014 11:45:33 PM · #48
Are all the "techniques" here in DPC Photoshop based? Some of us prefer to work in Paint Shop Pro - is there much discussion about Corel products here in DPC?

Just wondering.
 09/21/2014 12:14:43 AM · #49
Got mine in - I'm very happy with how it turned out. I ended up using one of the selenium gradients in gradient map in PS CC. It's pretty subtle so I hope I won't get too many votes of 1. lol
 09/21/2014 12:16:45 AM · #50
Originally posted by Zita:
Are all the "techniques" here in DPC Photoshop based? Some of us prefer to work in Paint Shop Pro - is there much discussion about Corel products here in DPC?

Virtually none. But just about everything we do IN photoshop has its analogue in Paint Shop Pro. So it's still useful information for you. Yo_Spiff for sure uses PSP, or at least used to, and you can always PM him if you have questions.

Message edited by author 2014-09-21 12:39:31.
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