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05/30/2014 10:24:43 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by chazoe:
Originally posted by bvy:
Originally posted by chazoe:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Originally posted by Mike:
and i finally have the urge to enter again.. the SOOC camera crap needs to go. |
I agree. Those who say they prefer to get by with minimal editing skills are rationalizing laziness. |
What? Sorry but I don't see getting composition, exposure, and focus correct in camera as "lazy". In fact, it makes more sense that saying to one's self "I'll fix it in photoshop" is rationalizing laziness. |
Minimal editing is quite the opposite of laziness. |
Exactly. |
A textbook example of a pointless debate. A hostile statement is made, followed naturally by a hostile response. So, instead of a discussion everyone lines up on each side, as if someone were counting heads.
Would love to see some minds instead of heads. |
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05/30/2014 10:28:03 AM · #27 |
| You and I have much different definitions of "hostile". |
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05/30/2014 10:32:16 AM · #28 |
| I ALWAYS learn something from all the editing levels, especially using in-camera adjustments (contrast, sharping, saturation, etc.) that I usually keep in auto mode. The minimal editing has really helped me in framing and getting the light as close to what it should be as I can. Sure, I can really make the image pop if I had just a little advance editing. It is a lot of work to get it close to what it should be, but then again, post processing is a lot of work. Taking the skills learned with minimal into the advanced editing, makes my editing easier and less time consuming. I prefer the advanced editing because (imo), digital images lack in contrast and sharpness. Now expert editing is another dimension that I am trying to get my head around. It takes a lot of creative thinking (which I feel I lack) and then knowing how to execute in Photoshop. I enjoy the creations others come up with, but not so much doing it myself. |
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05/30/2014 10:37:14 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
A textbook example of a pointless debate. A hostile statement is made, followed naturally by a hostile response. So, instead of a discussion everyone lines up on each side, as if someone were counting heads.
Would love to see some minds instead of heads. |
oh good, the wise one is here to shake his finger at the bickering.
c'mon, take a side, you know you want to :P
Message edited by author 2014-05-30 10:38:38. |
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05/30/2014 10:38:44 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by MAK:
Originally posted by Mike:
and i finally have the urge to enter again.. the SOOC camera crap needs to go. |
Why?
I didn't enter but I think it is a good system to let people try to find the shot 'in camera' instead of relying on Photoshop or Lightroom to 'create' a shot with regard to Composition, Light/Shaddows, exposure etc.
Just my opinion of cause. |
Agreed. I don't mind them, but I also don't love them enough to want 3 at the same time. At least throw us a Basic Edit in the middle of them, just to get the casual touch-up for dirt you didn't see. I love forcing myself to get things right in the camera, but when you find ONE small thing that forces you to either abandon the shot or reset it's maddening.
Next time I'm doing all my minimals tethered. |
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05/30/2014 10:39:26 AM · #31 |
| Next week I guess we can all start moaning about three challenges with no descriptions in a row. :) |
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05/30/2014 10:42:40 AM · #32 |
"Different strokes for different folks." It's all good.
At least you can enter a minimal shot in any challenge if you wish. |
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05/30/2014 10:43:01 AM · #33 |
| i will admit that minimal editing has taught me that i hate minimal editing challenges. |
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05/30/2014 10:49:08 AM · #34 |
If the statement wasn't hostile, it was provocative.
And it certainly is bickering.
I see minimal editing as an "exercise" -- kind of like playing scales or etudes. The resultant pieces can stand on their own, but they better serve to sharpen one's skills. And most beginner piano students hate etudes. |
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05/30/2014 10:49:58 AM · #35 |
I actually enjoy the minimal editing challenges for it *enforces* one to learn what their camera can do and have everything composed in the shot before pressing the shutter. Yes, it can be a pain in the butt because you can't control some things (i.e. for outdoor shots when the light is good because Mother Nature doesn't always co-operate).
The advantages are that the *more* effort you place before pressing the shutter button the *less* time you will spend editing it in post production be it for minimal or advanced in the future...that is, of course, if the lessons stick:-)
Perhaps we had 3 in a row because it forced everyone to apply those lessons more than once....
Message edited by author 2014-05-30 10:50:29. |
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05/30/2014 10:52:25 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by backdoorhippie:
Thank God that this stretch of minimal editing is over!!
I can finally stop shooting RAW+JPEG. |
RAW + JPEG is the only thing i don't like about minimal editing. I tried to argue in another thread that extracting the embedded JPEG from the RAW file is the same as the JPEG stored on card, but i failed.
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05/30/2014 10:55:44 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by bvy:
Originally posted by chazoe:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Originally posted by Mike:
and i finally have the urge to enter again.. the SOOC camera crap needs to go. |
I agree. Those who say they prefer to get by with minimal editing skills are rationalizing laziness. |
What? Sorry but I don't see getting composition, exposure, and focus correct in camera as "lazy". In fact, it makes more sense that saying to one's self "I'll fix it in photoshop" is rationalizing laziness. |
Minimal editing is quite the opposite of laziness. |
See, that's just it. That's the rationalization part. |
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05/30/2014 10:58:49 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by bvy:
If the statement wasn't hostile, it was provocative.
And it certainly is bickering.
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the message board would be boring as well without provocative statements and bickering. hell, its the entire basis for the rant section !
Message edited by author 2014-05-30 10:59:01. |
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05/30/2014 11:01:51 AM · #39 |
And I don't know anybody who thinks you can 'fix' anything in Photoshop. Getting the shot you want is important. I want one that I can use to exercise my creative energy. I shoot to edit. I'm not 'wrong.' You're not 'wrong.' But I have a bad reaction when Photoshop is described as a crutch, when the fundamentalist photographers try to indoctrinate us all to their way of thinking. Who says I'm not getting right in camera, which to me means I get exactly what I want.
I have no interest in minimal editing. It feels like the easy way out. |
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05/30/2014 11:03:30 AM · #40 |
| I find it really interesting that I have to bring a different mindset to minimal editing challenges than shooting for advanced or expert. I find minimal tougher to shoot for because it has to be right the first time - no second chance to clean it up afterwards. If you see that as a roadblock keeping you from a great image, I can see how that would be frustrating. |
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05/30/2014 11:05:01 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by dtremain:
I find it really interesting that I have to bring a different mindset to minimal editing challenges than shooting for advanced or expert. I find minimal tougher to shoot for because it has to be right the first time - no second chance to clean it up afterwards. If you see that as a roadblock keeping you from a great image, I can see how that would be frustrating. |
That's why it's called a "CHALLENGE"
: - ) |
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05/30/2014 11:07:04 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
And I don't know anybody who thinks you can 'fix' anything in Photoshop. Getting the shot you want is important. I want one that I can use to exercise my creative energy. I shoot to edit. I'm not 'wrong.' You're not 'wrong.' But I have a bad reaction when Photoshop is described as a crutch, when the fundamentalist photographers try to indoctrinate us all to their way of thinking. Who says I'm not getting right in camera, which to me means I get exactly what I want.
I have no interest in minimal editing. It feels like the easy way out. |
I think your point comes with experience. For the inexperienced that can't get Photoshop to do what they want, it isn't a key tool in the process.
You are so right that you can't fix a bad picture in post. |
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05/30/2014 11:08:55 AM · #43 |
| Not sure I liked the three-in-a-row on either end (expert or minimal). I'm open to the experience, though... |
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05/30/2014 11:08:59 AM · #44 |
| I will say this...I agree that three minimals or three experts in a row is excessive (much less, six in a row combined). I don't mind them smattered here and there. |
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05/30/2014 11:12:04 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Originally posted by bvy:
Originally posted by chazoe:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Originally posted by Mike:
and i finally have the urge to enter again.. the SOOC camera crap needs to go. |
I agree. Those who say they prefer to get by with minimal editing skills are rationalizing laziness. |
What? Sorry but I don't see getting composition, exposure, and focus correct in camera as "lazy". In fact, it makes more sense that saying to one's self "I'll fix it in photoshop" is rationalizing laziness. |
Minimal editing is quite the opposite of laziness. |
See, that's just it. That's the rationalization part. |
It's all a matter of where you want to focus your efforts. I'll delete a picture before I clone out anything distracting or otherwise unwanted. If that makes me lazy, so be it. But my approach is documentary, and I'm the one who has to live with the picture. I've never been a member of the "it's the final result that matters" club. It may be only the final result that matters to you, but what went into it matters just as much to me. And this is all about me. |
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05/30/2014 11:13:17 AM · #46 |
I don't get all this love/hate business at all. These extreme positions assume that everyone does photography for the same reasons, and enjoys creating the same sort of images. Everything has value, if you're open to it.
Whether you learn all the tricks your camera can do, or learn all the tricks your computer image processor can do, it's all software. You're either "processing" your image in your camera or on your computer. If you really wanted to be "minimal" about it, then use the default settings on the camera.
BTW: you can't get a great image from post-processing. You can "improve" a good image with post-processing. Look at any "advanced" editing challenge, especially if there are similar images where one finished near the top and the other near the bottom. A "good" image still requires good composition, lighting, blah, blah. All the filters in the world are not going to turn a dud into a prized cow.
If you feel that strongly about rule sets, don't enter that challenge. But don't knock the fact that they exist or that other people enjoy/find value in them. |
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05/30/2014 11:15:17 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by posthumous:
A textbook example of a pointless debate. A hostile statement is made, followed naturally by a hostile response. So, instead of a discussion everyone lines up on each side, as if someone were counting heads.
Would love to see some minds instead of heads. |
oh good, the wise one is here to shake his finger at the bickering.
c'mon, take a side, you know you want to :P |
I vote for minimal challenge descriptions. |
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05/30/2014 11:17:08 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by posthumous:
A textbook example of a pointless debate. A hostile statement is made, followed naturally by a hostile response. So, instead of a discussion everyone lines up on each side, as if someone were counting heads.
Would love to see some minds instead of heads. |
oh good, the wise one is here to shake his finger at the bickering.
c'mon, take a side, you know you want to :P |
I vote for minimal challenge descriptions. |
fine, DNMC. |
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05/30/2014 11:17:57 AM · #49 |
I like minimal editing. I like the challenge, sure. I like the imperfection, the inability for processing to save a bad composition, the rawness of an awkward exposure that can't be fixed by algorithms and wizardry. Additionally, one excellent thing about minimal editing is the blandness, the glorious lack of glossy thumbnails on that first voting challenge screen. The lack of ludicrously cartoonish colors that don't exist in real life is refreshing.
Some people think that photography is all about exploiting every bell and whistle of your new camera,pushing technique to the limit to dazzle and amaze all viewers with mind blowing gimmicks. Sure, that is fun. But for every glossy bird and wildlife shot, every copy of a glasses filled with liquid shot, every stock photo, you can rest assured that there is someone out there who does it better than you do. I am not saying you have to shoot blurry and lo-fi, but I am saying that it doesn't matter. It is unquestionably better to shoot from the heart and show us your world, not a highly stylized gimmick of a shot.
Its a crude analogy, but perhaps processing can be seen as "make-up" - the best would be to look beautiful, and appreciate beauty without any cosmetics at all. Next best would be to tastefully apply cosmetics, trying to appear natural while enhancing certain aspects, and using to much make-up, well you see where I am going with this... |
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05/30/2014 11:18:37 AM · #50 |
Popcorn time...
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